Jesus could do no deed of power there

wandering misfit · Mar 11, 2021

disciple Clint said:
Why do you think that John calls the miracles that Jesus did signs? Signs of what, signs that Jesus was God.

It may be that John was foreshadowing the sending of the Holy Spirit @ Pentacost to proclaim the Gospel.

Clare73 · Mar 11, 2021

disciple Clint said:
Why do you think that John calls the miracles that Jesus did signs? Signs of what, signs that Jesus was God.

And more. . .see post #339, Jesus could do no deed of power there

Clare73 · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
I'm not saying that I have the answer but for the sake of exploring and understanding the truth in this matter, if the Calvinistic argument for God's sovreignity as being the necessary cause of man's choices in regard to salvation is true, then shouldn't it logically follow that that same sovreignity dictates all of man's choices, by the same necessity. IOW, if God is truly master of all in the sense that Calvinism approaches that matter, then can anything happen that He does not directly determine, will, and cause? He's sovereign, after all.

Neither Calvin, nor Scripture, teaches that God dictates whether I have breakfast or not.

Clare73 · Mar 11, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think you either need to own, or disown, your position. If the miracles were a sign that Jesus was God, then what do the lack of miracles in his hometown indicate?

See post #339, Jesus could do no deed of power there

Mr. M · Mar 11, 2021

disciple Clint said:
Well if they were in fact miracles then they had to be caused by someone with supernatural powers, I am certain that you would not agree with the foolish Pharisees that they were done with the power of satan, so that leaves the power of God. If God was involved then Jesus was using His deity.

Jesus was using His Faith.
Matthew 17:
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, Why could we not cast it out?
20 So Jesus said to them, Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith
as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move;
and nothing will be impossible for you.
21 However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.
Work of Faith

PuerAzaelis · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
I'm not saying that I have the answer but for the sake of exploring and understanding the truth in this matter, if the Calvinistic argument for God's sovreignity as being the necessary cause of man's choices in regard to salvation is true, then shouldn't it logically follow that that same sovreignity dictates all of man's choices, by the same necessity. IOW, if God is truly master of all in the sense that Calvinism approaches that matter, then can anything happen that He does not directly determine, will, and cause? He's sovereign, after all.

I think it's important to have an idea of ultimate will and provisional providence. In the relativistic, contingent world there are plenty of evils - in fact any and all evils - which God does not intend. I don't know if even Calvin was that deterministic so as to make God's intent embrace even evil.

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
No. And if we think on it for a moment, we should be able to see the difference.

On the question of daily living, we usually have the information needed for a considered decision. In addition, God has laid out for us -- in some detail, as a matter of fact -- what is right and what is wrong to do. We have divine revelation in Scripture, the Ten Commandments are there, Christ taught for probably three years, emphasizing in the Sermon on the Mount the 'dos and don'ts' of Godly behavior. Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, bury the dead, etc. And then there's all the rest of his teaching on morals.

But there is one matter which is beyond our human capabilities to handle in the usual way. I'm referring to apprehending the true God, following Him and trusting Him.

The nature of God and knowing which one, how to know to make such a choice, whether it matters at all...these are all above our level. The Calvinist will say that we cannot just choose God but that God has to make himself known to us for us to be able to have saving Faith and, as a result, to live. God chooses his own.

Whether anyone of us agrees with that view or not, it does make sense and it does have Scriptural support.

I'm not suggesting that man doesn't need something more, more than himself, in order to be moved towards God. I'd contest, however, the doctrine that insists that the only reason man actually does so is due solely to God's sovereign will. Man's justification begins with revealed knowledge, upon which his faith is based. Even tho he cannot possibly move himself towards God, the question is whether or not his will can play any part in being able to resist that movement, that grace. And I'd submit that only if he can do so the gospel truly make sense.

We're here to choose and to embrace goodness, over evil, when we've finally seen it. That's all we can truly know IMO. Anyway, the concept of God's sovereignty doesn't conflict with my understanding as long as we know that God wants us to freely choose rightly, to the best we can with the help of the grace with which He draws us to that choice. Ultimately evil will no longer be allowed to coexist with good at all. Meanwhile He allows His will to not be done in earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus taught only one gospel during those three years, BTW, the gospel of the New Covenant

Albion · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
I'm not suggesting that man doesn't need something more, more than himself, in order to be moved towards God. I'd contest, however, the doctrine that insists that the only reason man actually does so is due solely to God's sovereign will.

Okay.

Man's justification begins with revealed knowledge, upon which his faith is based. Even tho he cannot possibly move himself towards God, the question is whether or not his will can play any part in being able to resist that movement, that grace. And I'd submit that only if he can do so the gospel truly make sense.

Without taking sides on this matter, I'd disagree. If God, being Almighty, the Creator of us all, chooses his people (the whole of humanity having fallen along with Adam), then it's entirely just of him to do so.

We're here to choose and to embrace goodness, over evil, when we've finally seen it.

and as has already been said, that's true of every choice we make except for coming to Faith.

That's all we can truly know IMO. Anyway, the concept of God's sovereignty doesn't conflict with my understanding as long as we know that God wants us to freely choose rightly, to the best we can with the help of the grace with which He draws us to that choice. Ultimately evil will no longer be allowed to coexist with good at all. Meanwhile He allows His will to not be done in earth as it is in heaven.

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Clare73 said:
Neither Calvin, nor Scripture, teaches that God dictates whether I have breakfast or not.

All right, then why would it be necessary for Him to dictate whether you are saved or not?

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
and as has already been said, that's true of every choice we make except for coming to Faith.

All right, and, as many believe, faith is a gift that, as with any gift, can be rejected either when first given or at any point later down the road.

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
If God, being Almighty, the Creator of us all, chooses his people (the whole of humanity having fallen along with Adam), then it's entirely just of him to do so.

I'd agree, and that would certainly be loving either way. But can the same be said if He created beings who, without regard to their own contribution in the matter, without regard to their choices but due solely to His sovereign will must suffer eternally?

Direct Driver · Mar 11, 2021

disciple Clint said:
You need to study the Economic Trinity and also kenosis, your views are not consistent with Orthodox Christian Theology. When any member of the Trinity acts they all act together. The Council of Chalcedon 451 clearly shows that Jesus did not give up any of His Deity and the powers that accompany them. Elementary Christology states that God is immutable, God cannot give up powers, He would not be God if He did and Jesus is 100% God as well as 100% man.

I use this analogy to explain a possible way the whole thing works: The earth is a WalMart store. It has employees and department managers who are the face of the company to customers. They are the company to the customers. It also has a store manager who we all answer to. As far as we are concerned, he IS the company. He IS the head of the company as far as those of us in the store are concerned.

So, the head of the whole company is God. The store manager is Jesus, and we are the rest.

Oh, and there is more than one Wal-Mart store.

Everything above is from the perspective of "through a glass darkly". The bible is written for man. Man on earth. So do I believe the above? No. Do I think it's possible? Yes.

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
No. And if we think on it for a moment, we should be able to see the difference.

And I still don't quite understand this. Correct me if I'm wrong but the argument is made, in support of the position against man's will having anything to do with his salvation, that strictly because of God's sovereignty nothing can happen outside of His willing it. The real bottom line in my opinion is that man needs to learn a valuable lesson, which is that he needs God. And that's why we're in this particular world which effectively lacks His presence but within which He in makes His existence and goodness and trustworthiness and necessity known by revelation and grace. Makes it known, most exhaustively and demonstrably by His act of sacrifice on the cross, so that we'll have the information with which to choose. All of us are like prodigals who've spent time in a pigsty, relatively speaking, who might be all the more primed to make that right choice, and keep doing so later, when He calls us by His grace.

Halbhh · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
I'd agree, and that would certainly be loving either way. But can the same be said if He created beings who, without regard to their own contribution in the matter, without regard to their choices but due solely to His sovereign will must suffer eternally?

One key thing about how He chooses we can see in these:

6 For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly,
but the haughty he knows from afar.

34 Toward the scorners he is scornful,
but to the humble he gives favor.

23 One’s pride will bring him low,
but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor.

12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

52 he has brought down the mighty from their thrones
and exalted those of humble estate;
6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

We can notice this message is throughout the Bible. These are only some very direct verses. But for instance, when Christ said in Matthew chapter 18 that we must change and become humble like little children, it's the same message.

And notice the outcome of that! --

Matthew 18:3 "Truly I tell you," He said, "unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
(or better, verses 1-5)

Albion · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
All right, and, as many believe, faith is a gift that, as with any gift, can be rejected either when first given or at any point later down the road.

That's not necessarily so. If God confers something on you that you don't necessarily deserve, have not earned, then it's still a gift even if it cannot be rejected.

Albion · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
I'd agree, and that would certainly be loving either way. But can the same be said if He created beings who, without regard to their own contribution in the matter, without regard to their choices but due solely to His sovereign will must suffer eternally?

According to the logic involved with this, it would depend on whether or not they deserved it. Your question seems to suggest that they do not.

But in fact, none of us is righteous on our own account. That is why we had to have a Savior--to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. If we were capable of living a fault-free life, living up to God's standards and never faltering at any time in life...then it could be said that it would be unjust of God to condemn such a person to an eternity of estrangement from the Almighty.

But as we know, there is no person who is able to live up to God's perfection, so none of us can claim salvation on our own merits.

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
That's not necessarily so. If God confers something on you that you don't necessarily deserve, have not earned, then it's still a gift even if it cannot be rejected.

Agreed, it could be a gift either way

fhansen · Mar 11, 2021

Albion said:
According to the logic involved with this, it would depend on whether or not they deserved it. Your question seems to suggest that they do not.

But in fact, none of us is righteous on our own account.

the problem is that, according to the same theology, it seems that none of us are unrighteous on our own accounts acvount. either.

Our job, as I see it, is simply to recognize our need for God and not say no when He comes calling to save us. Then He provides the righteousness.

Albion · Mar 11, 2021

fhansen said:
the problem is that, according to the same theology, it seems that none of us are unrighteous on our own accounts acvount. either.

What? The Bible is full of references to our sinful condition prior to coming to Faith.

Mr. M · Mar 11, 2021

public hermit said:
And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief.

The difficulty may very well be in understanding unbelief. Not as a mindset, but spiritually
it is described on this wise: "their hearts were hardened". The cause of hardness of heart is
in the refusal to be forgiving. And the opposite of the hardened heart, is the heart of compassion.

Matthew 18:
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was
due to him.
35 So My heavenly Father also will do to you, if each of you from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

Jesus could do no deed of power there

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