Is Obedience to God Necessary?

Bible Highlighter said:

Romans 8:13 teaches that if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die, and if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the power of the Spirit (i.e. we put away sin by the Holy Spirit) we will live (live eternally).

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Danthemailman said:

How about a little context. Romans 8:8 - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

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How does this context actually help prove Belief Alone-ism? I see nothing in this passage that would support the view that belief alone in Jesus is salvation from the penalty of sin, and that Sanctification is only in reference to being saved from the power of sin (but not the penalty of sin).

The flesh in Romans 8:8-9 in context to walk not after the flesh (Romans 8:1), and to living after the flesh in Romans 8:13. Verse 10 says the body is dead because of sin. This is the reference to the flesh. For Galatians 5:19-21 talks about works of the flesh are manifest and then Paul lists various sins like murder, adultery, drunkeness, etc.

MMXX said:

You said: As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

And I asked: Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

Apparently you can't. So you're obfuscating. Either that or it's just because you're not very good at hermeneutics.

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I mentioned Dan Corner, BJorkBloggen Ministeries to you before and you still act like it is just me. There are others out there who believe the same way I do, as well. I am not new to to this topic, and I have been studying it since the past 10 years. Again, but it does not even matter if nobody believed what the Bible says. Matthew 5:28-30, and 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14-17 both teach that adulterous thoughts can lead to condemnation. Your unacceptance of such a truth in the Bible does not undo what it plainly says. You simply do not like what the Bible says in these instances and so you are seeking to find a chink in my armor elsewhere.

Bible Highlighter said:

So in your belief: This means a Christian can sin and still be saved.

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That's your constant strawman you keep knocking down. But what's being argued against is 50/50 salvation. One half Jesus saving the believer and one half the believer saving himself.

MMXX said:

That's your constant strawman you keep knocking down. But what's being argued against is 50/50 salvation. One half Jesus saving the believer and one half the believer saving himself.

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One can either sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, or one can accept God's grace, and believe Titus 2:11-12 that says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. One can turn the gospel into a license for immorality, or they can believe 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 in that the call of the gospel is... God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.

Bible Highlighter said:

I mentioned Dan Corner, BJorkBloggen Ministeries to you before and you still act like it is just me. There are others out there who believe the same way I do, as well. I am not new to to this topic, and I have been studying it since the past 10 years. Again, but it does not even matter if nobody believed what the Bible says. Matthew 5:28-30, and 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14-17 both teach that adulterous thoughts can lead to condemnation. Your unacceptance of such a truth in the Bible does not undo what it plainly says. You simply do not like what the Bible says in these instances and so you are seeking to find a chink in my armor elsewhere.

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Once again, Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought.

Can you produce a quote from Dan Corner or BJorkBloggen Ministeries saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?
.
Awaiting your next evasion.

MMXX said:

Once again, Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought.

Can you produce a quote from Dan Corner or BJorkBloggen Ministeries saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?
.
Awaiting your next evasion.

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I do not need another believer confirming Matthew 5:28-30 and 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14-17 says. The Bible stands on it's own. You act like there needs to be a certain number of believers to hold to a particular belief in order for the Bible itself to be true in what it states. The Bible is true regardless if the 99% of the whole world were to not believe in God's Word.

MMXX said:

Once again, Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought.

Can you produce a quote from Dan Corner or BJorkBloggen Ministeries saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?
.
Awaiting your next evasion.

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Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it.
I have shown you two ministries that teach that it only takes one sin to be separated from God. If you do not believe me, you can email them and ask them if they believe that way. There are others, too. Look up the different ministeries of Conditional Salvationists. Some Conditional Salvationists believe that way, and others don't.

MMXX said:

You said: As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

And I asked: Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

Apparently you can't. So you're obfuscating. Either that or it's just because you're not very good at hermeneutics.

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I already gave you the answer, but you simply do not like the answer. You are unable to see it because it does not align with what appears to be the Free Will Baptist sin and still be saved type belief.

Note: Free Will Baptists deny OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), but they don't believe sin separates them from God. They believe only a rejection of Jesus is capable of a person falling away from the faith.

Bible Highlighter said:

Galatians 6:8-9 says if we sow to the flesh (sin) we will reap corruption, but if we sow to the Spirit, we will reap everlasting life. Verse 9 says that we should not faint in “well doing” for in due season will shall reap. “Well doing” is good works. Well doing is equated with sowing to the Spirit whereby we will reap everlasting life. So if we are not on that course of sowing to the Spirit, there is no everlasting life.

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Danthemailman said:

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

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But if you believe the penalty of sin is removed ONLY by a belief alone in Jesus, then Galatians 6:8-9 cannot be true because Galatians 6:8-9 specifically mentions how that sowing to the flesh (sin) reaps corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit (well doing) will reap everlasting life. Nothing is mentioned in this passage about how it is by a belief alone in Jesus that makes this possible or forces us to sow to the Spirit. Yes, sowing to the Spirit can only happen after being saved by God's grace, but that does not mean our free will is gone. Even Belief Alone Proponents take 1 John 1:8 as a declaration to sin daily or weekly or as a way of life. So this kind of interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not appear to line up with Galatians 6:8-9.

Bible Highlighter said:

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

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Danthemailman said:

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?" Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?" *You must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

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I find it hard to believe that John 5:29 is referring to those who say that they will always commit mortal or serious sin as per 1 John 1:8 are those who have done good unto the resurrection of life. How can that be good if they are not doing good but they have a mixture of good and evil works? I do not see a third option of this kind mentioned in John 5:29. I see only those who have done good, and those who have done evil. To say that we will always commit mortal sin as per 1 John 1:8 sounds more like those who do evil because that is what one is still doing. There is no free pass by God to commit serious sin a little bit.

You also say that John 5:29 is descriptive passage (i.e. implying that it is describing the results of those who are saved and it is not teaching a prescription like a doctor who prescribes like a medicine or vaccine to be saved). While John 5:29 sounds like it could be descriptive, it is in context to John 5:24 that says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” This is saying that he that both obeys Jesus, and believes in Him will have everlasting life (Which plays in harmony with John 5:29). Matthew 7:26-27 basically says that everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So John 5:29 when looking at the context and other verses is clear that Jesus also desires us to obey Him in order to be saved. Jesus says: “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.” (Luke 9:23-24).

MMXX said:

That's your constant strawman you keep knocking down. But what's being argued against is 50/50 salvation. One half Jesus saving the believer and one half the believer saving himself.

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There are three verses that teach that we are saved by both Justification (God's grace) and Sanctification (Note: The red letters are in reference to Sanctification, and the letters in blue, are in reference to Justification).

Verse #1.


(Note: Verse 12, says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Verses 16-17 in 2 Thessalonians 2 mentions faith and works in context, as well).

Verse #2.


(Note on John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" is to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in Jesus and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed).

Verse #3.


(Note: Most Christians believe that the phrase “justified by faith” is dealing with salvation; If this is what you believe, you must then also be consistent with the use of this word "justified," and we should use this one word in the same way in relation to works.).

Bible Highlighter said:

I already gave you the answer, but you simply do not like the answer. You are unable to see it because it does not align with what appears to be the Free Will Baptist sin and still be saved type belief.

Note: Free Will Baptists deny OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), but they don't believe sin separates them from God. They believe only a rejection of Jesus is capable of a person falling away from the faith.

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I simply asked you if you could provide a quote, and you've replied with non-sequitur tangents. Your replies are so unrelated to the question, there's just no way to take you seriously.

Bible Highlighter said:

Belief Alone-ism teaches that one can do serious evil or sin on some level, and still be saved.

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Danthemailman said:

What is it with you and serious evil/sin?

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It has nothing to do with me, but it is in what the Bible says.

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

You said:

Those who are born of God/genuine believers practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:10) But this does not mean that we never sin at all. (1 John 1:8-10)

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This belief is contradictory. In this belief, a Christian can sin and still be saved as long as they do not practice that sin. But you say that a Christian will always commit sin as per 1 John 1:8. The Belief Alone Proponent's view on 1 John 1:8 sounds like practicing sin to me because sin is always going to happen at some point for the believer as a matter of fact. Can a person practice a violin on occasion? There really is not difference morally speaking in justifying a little bit of sin vs. say lots of sin. If one commits mortal sin all the time it is just as bad as if they do mortal sin on occasion. Evil is not less evil if one does it occasionally. The fall of mankind took place by just one sin and not many. Ananias and Sapphira were each condemned by their one time sin. Simon the sorcerer was told to repent and pray to God for forgiveness over his one time sin in trying to pay for the Spirit. But if things are as you say, then all Simon had to do was believe in Jesus and he is good to go (i.e. to enter the Kingdom). But that is not what we read in the book of Acts.

MMXX said:

I simply asked you if you could provide a quote, and you've replied with non-sequitur tangents. Your replies are so unrelated to the question, there's just no way to take you seriously.

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The Bible is my quote of the truth. If you don't think the Bible stands alone on truth, then that is on you. I do not need to quote men in order to confirm what the Bible says.

MMXX said:

I simply asked you if you could provide a quote, and you've replied with non-sequitur tangents. Your replies are so unrelated to the question, there's just no way to take you seriously.

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“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27).

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

Bible Highlighter said:

The Bible is my quote of the truth. If you don't think the Bible stands alone on truth, then that is on you. I do not need to quote men in order to confirm what the Bible says.

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What the Bible says and what you say in your own words aren't the same thing.

Bible Highlighter said:

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27).

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

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And yet you compared yourself to Dan Corner and BJorkBloggen Ministeries.

Danthemailman said:

Take this to your implied conclusion and you had better be sinless 100% of the time or else be resurrected unto damnation.

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As I said before, not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death, and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Matthew 5:22 in the NASB lays it out pretty clearly.

You said:

Who said it was and Jude is exhorting believers to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints (vs. 3) because certain ungodly men who have crept in unnoticed. Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. (vs. 19)

In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ. (vs. 1) Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are PRESERVED FOREVER, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

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Right, how do you think they crept in unnoticed? It is because they are able to put on a show of holiness. They appear to be for holy living, but they really are not in favor of upholding a consistent standard of morality.

Those who believe in a sin and still be saved gospel are not going to be overly concerned with living a holy life because it does not really matter in the long run because they got their ticket to Heaven no matter what they do. So they can just believe in Jesus and sin and live it up in this life. Holiness is only mirage or an illusion. No standard of truly living holy is upheld in Belief Alone-ism.

MMXX said:

What the Bible says and what you say in your own words aren't the same thing.

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If you disagree with something I said about the Bible, please feel free to use the Bible to show I am wrong. But so far, you really have not done that.

Bible Highlighter said:

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27).

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

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So in other words I should stop listening to you.