Is Obedience to God Necessary?

BNR32FAN said:

Who is James addressing in this epistle?

“James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

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All the NT epistles are addressed to brethren, but that does not mean that everyone being discussed in those epistles is a genuine believer. In James 2:14, we read - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (NASB1995) Well what kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith, which is alive in Christ and produces good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

None of the NT epistles are addressed specifically to unbelievers, yet we can find unbelievers/false brethren//false prophets/false teachers/wolves in sheep's clothing/tares among the wheat/ungodly persons (Matthew 7:15; 13:30; Luke 12:46; Acts 20:29; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4; 2 Peter 2:1; Jude 1:4) being discussing in those epistles who are mixed in with the group.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

If the Pastor of a church (especially a very large church/mega church) opens up his sermon on Sunday morning with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" and the sermon is addressed to believers, does that mean that EVERYONE who is attending that church on Sunday absolutely MUST be a genuine believer? NO. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians and make believers mixed in with genuine Christians and genuine believers in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

BNR32FAN said:

So then your saying that these branches whom Christ said were “in Me” were never actually in Christ to begin with. That’s contradicting the very words Jesus actually spoke. Furthermore your saying that these branches who were never in Christ were taken away from Him. If they were never in Christ to begin with how could they be taken away?

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As I already explained, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

There is no contradiction here if when you rightly divide the word of truth. Judas Iscariot had a cosmetic connection to the vine, but not a spiritual and vital connection, was never in the body of Christ and was taken away. Greek scholar AT Robertson explained it very well. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Just like in Galatians 5:4 when Paul said “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace” are we to conclude that these Galatians who were “severed from Christ” were never actually in Christ to begin with? Wouldn’t that make Paul’s statement incorrect in saying that they were severed from Christ if they were never joined to Christ to begin with?

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The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

I recently ran across this interesting article from CARM that points out a pun with circumcision and also points out that Paul is writing to the whole of the Galatian church and undoubtedly, there were true Christians and false Christians within that congregation. - We cannot lose our salvation. Jesus does not fail to do the Father's will

I have noticed that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me. *Note: With that being said, I am not saying that everyone who disagrees with OSAS attends a false religion or cult and is an unbeliever.

BNR32FAN said:

Why should I care more about what AT Robertson says over the early church writers or the Eastern Orthodox Church who are Greek experts? St Iranaeus was taught by John and spoke Greek fluently and has refuted eternal security over 1800 years ago.

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I would be careful with that logic. Roman Catholics continuously use the writings of the early church fathers to support baptismal regeneration and even infant baptism, which I believe are unscriptural. The early church fathers were not infallible and neither were their writings. Only God's Word is infallible.

120-205 AD IRENAEUS "As we are lepers in sin, we are made clean from our old transgressions by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord. We are thus spiritually regenerated as newborn infants, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, "Fragments From Lost Writings", no. 34, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 574)

MMXX said:

And if you disagree with BH, you must be of the latter persuasion. The only reason you're finding big flaws in his reasoning, is because you want to enjoy sin and still be saved.

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That seems to be his implication and continued straw man argument.

Danthemailman said:

So it's belief + works? Is that what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26?

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I think you answered your question in your previous post, here:

Danthemailman said:

Faith that produces no works at all is dead faith and not authentic faith.

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The problem is that you are not defining or elaborating on what Biblical Faith ("authentic faith") is and includes. Bible Highlighter has been pointing this out in his use of "Belief Alone-ism." This is an old debate that still rages: Faith alone vs. Faith is never alone.

When Jesus said that we must believe in Him to have eternal life, some want to take this as Faith Alone and some counter this by saying Faith is never Alone. You've already pointed out that Faith must have works or it is dead faith. So, you've begun to explain what's included in Biblical Faith and why it's never alone, which is what the never alone group is trying to explain.

Now, if you do more work from the Text, you'll find that Faith & Obedience are correlated. So, Biblical Faith now includes Obedience to God + Works God has prepared for us to do. If you continue your research on Biblical Faith, you'll find several others words that explain what it includes.

James is foundational for explaining Biblical Faith. Paul comes along in Romans 4:2 and uses a first-class condition (which is an assumption of truth for the sake of argument) and says:

NKJ Romans 4:1-2 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh1? 2 For if (assuming it's true for the sake of argument) Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

You already know the 3 tenses of Salvation. In the first tense there is nothing we can do, but work as Jesus commands to listen to and learn what God teaches about His Son and then believe God about His Son (John 6) as God commands (1 John 3). This work in listening and learning is not a work of righteousness we have done (works of Law), because we are dead in sin/lawlessness/unrighteousness - imprisoned and serving our sentence under the law of sin and death (Romans 8). God has done all the work and requires our Biblical Faith in Him and in His Son.

Frankly, I think Paul is dealing with what James had taught. Paul does not negate Faith + Works, he simply says that it's the [Biblical] Faith (that contains obedience and works and...) that God credited righteousness to. We have nothing to boast about before God. We were imprisoned under sin and death, so there was no righteous work we could do, so Christ did it all for us, and before He died He commanded unbelievers to work to receive the gift He gives, which in context means to listen to and believe what God is teaching about His Son - the work God is doing drawing unbelievers to His Son.

Salvation is God's Plan and God's work. His work is primary and foundational. Even when we work with Him to accomplish our Salvation with fear and trembling, He is working in us to energize us to do what He requires of us (Philippians 2). Apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15 per Jesus re: the vine, which also tell us that Biblical Faith must be abiding/remaining and not momentary). Attached to Him He nourishes & energizes us and we then produce (working with Him in accomplishing our Salvation).

If we simply define Biblical Faith, then, Yes, every one of those verses that says believe in Him for life means having a Biblical Faith, which is obedient, lasting, does works, etc...

Faith Alone is correct, but only if we understand what Biblical Faith is, and can rightly divide where God says our work is not involved, because only He can do the necessary work.

TomCS said:

That's some very fancy reasoning on your part. So God got Himself a great deal when He got you, huh? You seem very assured of your own great performance in God's sight. Someone like you has no use for God's grace, you're going to pull your own weight into Heaven. Good luck with that, because God demands total perfection, not your sometimes, when you feel like it, efforts. You better be careful, or you will be the one who is on the outside of heaven, looking in.

All of your scripture references very skillfully omit the grace verses that come immediately proceeding the verses that you site. How about reading Romans chapters three, four, and five - and then preach your heresy about the necessity of works to produce or maintain salvation.

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No. He specifically covers it correctly.

TomCS said:

PS - You're deliberate misquoting of Paul is absolutely priceless guile on your part.

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No, he states in detail that works do not save.

Billy93 said:

Now, people can go back and forth all day arguing over whether or not one can “lose” one’s salvation based on these things, but the top question I would ask someone is a simple one: “Why aren’t you even trying to live like Jesus?”

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The only way to "lose" salvation is to block it by insisting on the law.
But these people who have "backslidden" to the first covenant can be rescued.

Danthemailman said:

As I already explained, when Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. *So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

There is no contradiction here if when you rightly divide the word of truth. Judas Iscariot had a cosmetic connection to the vine, but not a spiritual and vital connection, was never in the body of Christ and was taken away. Greek scholar AT Robertson explained it very well. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

I recently ran across this interesting article from CARM that points out a pun with circumcision and also points out that Paul is writing to the whole of the Galatian church and undoubtedly, there were true Christians and false Christians within that congregation. - We cannot lose our salvation. Jesus does not fail to do the Father's will

I have noticed that ALL false religions and cults that teach salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS, which has always been a red flag for me. *Note: With that being said, I am not saying that everyone who disagrees with OSAS attends a false religion or cult and is an unbeliever.

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You didn’t address why Jesus said to His faithful 11 apostles “IF you remain in Me” in verse 7. This is a clear indication that they were capable of not remaining in Him. We know for a fact that they had received grace and they did have faith. If eternal security were true then Jesus would’ve had to say something along the lines of “since/because you will remain in Me” not “IF”. The word “IF” implies an uncertainty that the condition will be met. Just like Jesus’ words in Luke 13:6-9. Notice that even despite Christ giving special attention to the tree it is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now about Galatians 5:4 Paul did say that they had lost their salvation at that point. No one has salvation if they have been severed from Christ and have fallen from grace. Salvation in that state is impossible. Sure they can be redeemed if they repent but if they don’t repent they will not be saved. Romans 11:17-23 makes it clear that people who have been grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be cut off and they can also be grafted back in if they repent. The thing is, no one can be grafted in without having faith. Unbelievers are not grafted into God’s covenant. Paul makes this clear in verse 18 when he said “you stand by your faith” but he warns them that they to can be cut off just as the Jews were. So by this we can know with certainty that people who have faith can later fall away and be cut off from God’s covenant thereby losing their salvation.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Danthemailman said:

Philippians 2:12 (AMP) - So then, my dear ones, just as you have always obeyed [my instructions with enthusiasm], not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation [that is, cultivate it, bring it to full effect, actively pursue spiritual maturity] with awe-inspired fear and trembling [using serious caution and critical self-evaluation to avoid anything that might offend God or discredit the name of Christ].

The 'fear and trembling' spoken of in this verse, is a reverential attitude towards God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. In 1 John 4:18 we read that "perfect love casts out fear." The fear that perfect loves casts out is the fear of God’s judgment/condemnation.

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Again, the way we cast out fear is by perfecting love in keeping His Word. So it's not in Belief Alone-ism that you cast out fear but it is by obeying God that you cast out fear. If one is not obeying God, then they should fear Him. But your belief makes room for a believer so as to disobey God and yet they do not need to fear Him (For in your view: Belief Alone in Jesus is all that is needed to remove penalty of sin and not obedience). So in your belief: This means a Christian can sin and still be saved. Again, lets read how we perfect love (so as to cast out fear).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

To be in Christ is to have salvation. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life. John 17:3 says to know God is eternal life. So if one does not abide in Jesus or God, they have no eternal life. 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

You said:

Those who are in Christ know the love of God, which drives away fear of condemnation. Unhealthy fear, along with bondage to insecurity which pictures God as a tyrant who can't wait to punish us every time we mess up is no way to live the Christian life.

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I believe that the Lord is patient with us if we happen to stumble into sin on rare occasion and we confess our sin and forsake them. But the problem with your belief is that there is no real motivation to put away sin because the penalty of sin is removed by a belief alone and not obedience. So one can live in disobedience and just believe in Jesus and be saved. Now, you can turn around and say no true believer will live in disobedience, but I hear many in the Belief Alone Camp use 1 John 1:8 as a banner flag that they sin 24/7. So the Belief Alone Proponent speaks a contradictory message and they do not truly uphold a standard of morality. If we sin, then we abide in spiritual death unless we confess and forsake such sins. If not, then you can just believe in Jesus and sin all you want. But we know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Jesus spewed out those who were lukewarm. The Belief Alone Proponents message leads a person to treat sin in a lukewarm kind of way. It does not regard it as serious as Jesus regarded sin (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28).

You said:

13 For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure. *Nothing there about "type 2 works salvation."

You turn sanctification of the Spirit into "type 2 works salvation."

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You are not reading and believing Philippians 2:12-13. It says clearly about salvation. In fact, it mentions the word “salvation” and yet you don't believe it is talking about salvation even though it mentions that word. You change the Scriptures to say that it is talking about being saved from the removal of the power of sin (but not the penalty of sin when this passage does not say that); But I don't think you really believe even that a believer is being removed from the power of sin because most in the Belief Alone Camp do not believe they can overcome mortal sin this side of Heaven. Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Again, not a verse that many in your camp likes or accepts.

Anyways, Paul says elsewhere in Romans 8:1 that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin), but after the Spirit. In fact, Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if we walk after the flesh (sin), we will die. Yet, he says if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we will live (live eternally). So two life choices are presented to us. Walk after sin, or walk after the flesh. Each one has it's own unique destinies. One being bad, and the other being good. Galatians 6:8-9 is another one that proves that Philippians 2:12-13 is referring to salvation as in inhering everlasting life. So you cannot escape what God's Word says.

You said:

Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

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Romans 3:23 is talking about our old life and it is in reference to the topic of Initial Salvation in how we first need to be saved by God's grace unless of course you want to apply Romans 3:11 to the current life of the believer, as well.

“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” (Romans 3:11).

So are you saying that all believers do not understand anything and they do not seek after God?
This is how you must interpret this verse if you are to take Romans 3:23 as a license to sin for the believer in their every day daily life.

You said:

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Right, the wages of sin is spiritual death. With the exception of Enoch, and the Rapture, everyone dies physically whether they live righteously or not. The gift of God is eternal life which is being a slave or servant to righteousness.

“Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants (slaves) of righteousness.” (Romans 6:18).

This being a servant or slave to righteousness or to God is in context to having your fruit unto holiness (good works) and the end of this kind of life is everlasting life.

“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

So again, Romans 6:22 is teaching we need to be servants or slaves to God and we need to have our fruit unto holiness so that our end is everlasting life. This means we need to have good works as a part of everlasting life. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Note: Hebrews 12:14 also tells us to follow after peace with all men (a holy action) without which no man shall see the Lord, too.

You said:

So according to your interpretation of these passages of scripture, anything short of being sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus) means that believers will not remain saved? So how do you interpret Philippians 2:12? Work out your salvation by obtaining entire sanctification/sinless perfection in order to remain saved?

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Not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death, and there are sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-17).

Matthew 5:22 in the NASB says,

“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (NASB).

The words in blue above is in reference to being punished in earthly courts (i.e. non-mortal sins), and the words in red above is in reference to being punished in the after life in fiey hell (i.e. mortal sin).

You said:

In the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax collector in Luke 18:9-14, which one was confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else and which one would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" and went down to his house justified? Always remember this parable when discussing pride and humility.

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Nothing is said on whether this is in reference to a believer first coming to the faith for the first time, or if it was in reference to a believer who struggled with sin and who was desiring to overcome it. But we know that this was not a believer who was justifying a sin and still be saved type belief in that they will always be a sinner who is saved by God's grace because Jesus said to two people to, “sin no more” (John 5:14, John 8:11), and He said that certain sins can keep a person out of God's kingdom (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28). So the message in Luke 18:9-14 was that the Pharisee was not accepting God's grace. For when we first accept God's grace, we obviously will seek forgiveness of our sins with the Lord Jesus Christ and seek to have mercy on the Lord in that we are a sinner from our past old life. Nowhere does God condone the idea that we can sin and still be saved. That would mean God would have to agree with our mindset that we can sin. But that is not possible. For God is holy and just, and good and He cannot agree with sin. Paul says that we have the mind of Christ in 1 Corinthians 2:16. The sin and still be saved mindset is not that of Christ but it is of sinful man. The Pharisee did not appear to ever accept God's grace and he made salvation all about works without God's grace and mercy. For it appeared that the Pharisee never had the same experience as the Tax Collector did. So Luke 18:9-14 is not a case that we can turn God's grace into a license for immorality. In fact, Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

MMXX said:

Who else besides you does?

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As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

SkyWriting said:

The only way to "lose" salvation is to block it by insisting on the law.
But these people who have "backslidden" to the first covenant can be rescued.

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Not all law is the same. When Paul refers to the “law” or “works” generically he is referring to the 613 laws of Moses (more specifically the ceremonial laws like circumcision, dietary laws, the Sabbath, or Sabbaths, etc.). We are New Covenant believers, and we follow the Commands that come from Jesus and His followers. The 613 laws of Moses was given to Israel and not the church. The commands of Jesus and His followers is for all today for those who truly want to be under the New Covenant. Most don't really want to be in the New Covenant, and they want to be under their own way or path by justifying sin while they have a belief alone in Jesus. Anyone can just read the context of when Paul mentions the words like “law” and “works” and you will see a mention of either circumcision (Which is an OT Law) or a reference to Moses, or the Old Law, etc.; Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Paul says that one of the marks of indicators of false teachers is that they can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). So Belief Alone-ism does not save.

Bible Highlighter said:

As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

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Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

MMXX said:

Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

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Peter mentions false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1.
And Peter mentions certain bad characteristics of these false teachers in verse 14.


Their fate is mist of darkness, which is described here:


So this means we cannot have the following characteristics above because they are one's held by false teachers. We cannot have eyes full of adultery, and we cannot have a view that says we cannot cease from sin (i.e. we cannot cease from mortal sin or grievous sin).

Bible Highlighter said:

So in your belief: This means a Christian can sin and still be saved.

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That's what you believe, except in your version a confession has to be made. A Christian can sin and still be saved, just as long as they confess the sin.

But I'm curious how that confession is supposed to be made. Does one just say "sorry"? Or do they have to get on their knees in a prayer closet to do it? Or what?

Bible Highlighter said:

Peter mentions false teachers in 2 Peter 2:1.
And Peter mentions certain bad characteristics of these false teachers in verse 14.

14 “Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;” (2 Peter 2:14-15).​

Their fate is mist of darkness, which is described here:

“These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.” (2 Peter 2:17).​

So this means we cannot have the following characteristics above because they are one's held by false teachers. We cannot have eyes full of adultery, and we cannot have a view that says we cannot cease from sin (i.e. we cannot cease from mortal sin or grievous sin).

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That totally didn't answer my question. Which was, can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

Danthemailman said:

In Galatians 5:21, we see that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 John 3:9, we read - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJB (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.). To learn why I believe the KJB (King James Bible) should be our final Word of authority, check out this thread here.

Anyways, the key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this “does not commit sin” is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26, Jude 1:4). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. Eternal Security Proponents (i.e. OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved), and or Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Types (Free Will Baptists) think future sin is forgiven them by having a belief alone on Jesus. So while they believe sin may exist on a physical level, they do not think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because they believe Jesus paid for their future sins (When the Bible never says future sin is forgiven us). In other words, I believe it is those who justify sin in some way who have not been born again spiritually and who have never seen or known Christ and He (the seed) does not abide in them. 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is talking about "willful sin" in Hebrews 10:26 in view or light of 1 John 1:8.

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

1 John 3:9 should read like this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."

1 John 3:6 should read like this:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."

This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.

Christians can battle with sin. This is why they need to confess of their sins in order to be forgiven of sin as per 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1-2 (cf. with: Proverbs 28:13, Psalms 51, Luke 15:18-21, Luke 18:9-14). But Christians are told to "sin no more" by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (John 5:14, John 8:11). The apostle John said to "sin not" (1 John 2:1).

Christians are to enter the Sanctification Process and put away mortal sin by God's power.

It's why Paul said let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Romans 8:13 essentially says if we live after the flesh, we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, we shall live. Two ways are set before us. We either seek to justify sin and die, or we seek to put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit and live (live eternally). Both God's grace (confessing sin to the Lord), and in forsaking our sin, and battling against putting it away by His power and help (and by putting the Word on the inside of us) is going to help us to overcome and live holy in this life. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (Note: For the purposes of this section of the forums, this would be in reference to ceasing from mortal sin; In any event, I believe that the way they cease from mortal sin was in the fact that they denied themselves mortal sin, and prayed, and fasted, and suffered persecution for Christ); And this passage also says that we should live the rest of our time (here on Earth obviously) not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God.

Paul says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

So we have to in time have the victory over our mortal sin. The time for each believer on this is between that person and God. Only God knows that person's heart and life.

MMXX said:

That totally didn't answer my question. Which was, can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

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I gave you an answer by the use of other related words that say the same thing by pointing you to 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14-17. There are false teachers who have eyes full of adultery (i.e. similar to Matthew 5:28-30), and they are reserved for being in a mist of darkness (i.e. similar to being cast bodily into hellfire in the fact that they both sound like places of condemnation or punishment by God).

Danthemailman said:

Walking according to the Spirit is descriptive of children of God. Those who are habitually dominated by the sinful nature (unbelievers) put their minds on the things of the sinful nature, but those who are habitually dominated by the Spirit (believers) put their minds on the things of the Spirit.

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It does not take only a whole bunch of sin to be condemned by God. It only takes one sin. What do you think happened with Adam? God basically said in Genesis 2:17 that Adam would die in the day he would eat of the wrong tree. But did Adam physically die that day? No. So Adam died spiritually that day by his one time sin (Which also resulted in the Fall of Mankind) (Note: Yes, I believe Adam later reconciled with God). But make no mistake, it only takes one sin to die spiritually.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Bible Highlighter said:

I gave you an answer by the use of other related words that say the same thing by pointing you to 2 Peter 2:1, and 2 Peter 2:14-17. There are false teachers who have eyes full of adultery (i.e. similar to Matthew 5:28-30), and they are reserved for being in a mist of darkness (i.e. similar to being cast bodily into hellfire in the fact that they both sound like places of condemnation or punishment by God).

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You said: As I pointed out to you before, there are other believers who hold to the same view of sin and salvation as I do. I did not invent it. Other had believed this way long before I was even born.

And I asked: Can you quote someone else saying Jesus is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought?

Apparently you can't. So you're obfuscating. Either that or it's just because you're not very good at hermeneutics.