Is Obedience to God Necessary?

MMXX said:

I pointed out what James said and did not say. You created a strawman to knock down, because you don't have a valid argument against that.

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Still no answers to the questions?

Kenny'sID said:

Still no answers to the questions?

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Refresh my memory, it's been a busy thread.

Danthemailman said:

Works are not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

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There are examples where faith does not always produce works. John 15:2 is a prime example. Branches cannot be in Christ without having faith. Also 1 Corinthians 13:3 indicates both faith and works without love which profits nothing. And James 2:14-26 James is addressing brethren of the faith who do not have works. So there are several examples where faith does not always produce works brother Dan. Be blessed

MMXX said:

Refresh my memory, it's been a busy thread.

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And now you want me to go back, and do tb33e work of finding the questions because you chose to skip them?...no fair.

Just follow the little arrow at tne end of any quote, in any of our posts, and if you really want to answer them, you can find them.

Kenny'sID said:

And now you want me to go back, and do tb33e work of finding the questions because you chose to skip them?...no fair.

Just follow the little arrow at tne end of any quote, in any of our posts, and if you really want to answer them, you can find them.

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I'm pretty sure at this point you'll just continue to complain and string me along no matter how I respond haha.

Danthemailman said:

The love of God is perfected in those who keep His word and keeping His word is the demonstrative evidence that we are in Him.

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Right, so it's not Belief Alone-ism. You have to keep His Word in order to perfect the love of God and to cast out fear. Your previous statement on Philippians 2:12 attempted to undermine the fear of God and thus live however one wants. But if Philippians 2:12 says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and TREMBLING (WHICH MEANS IT IS TALKING ABOUT FEAR), then we are to cast out this FEAR by keeping His Word (perfecting love). It's the only way to cast out fear.

MMXX said:

Jesus wasn't being half hyperbolic and half literal.

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Yes, He was. Look we both know you don't like His words on how a person would be in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon a woman in lust and thus this is the reason why you attempt to allegorize them. There are other verses that refer to hell. Do you allegorize those, too?

You said:

Those verses aren't germane to Matthew 5:28-30.

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The other verses of Jesus pointing out how certain sins can keep us out of Heaven, and or keeping certain commands is tied to eternal life is relevant to Matthew 5:28-30 because they do not use metaphors and yet they demolish a sin and still be saved type belief that you hold to. Matthew 5:28-30 is not the only passage that Jesus warns us about how sin can destroy our souls. But if you do not want to heed His warnings on sin, that is on you.

MMXX said:

I'm pretty sure at this point you'll just continue to complain and string me along no matter how I respond haha.

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I

MMXX said:

I'm pretty sure at this point you'll just continue to complain and string me along no matter how I respond haha.

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IOW, you'll not be answering the questions...got it.

Kenny'sID said:

IOW, you'll not be answering the questions...got it.

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What questions?

Bible Highlighter said:

Right, so it's not Belief Alone-ism. You have to keep His Word in order to perfect the love of God and to cast out fear. Your previous statement on Philippians 2:12 attempted to undermine the fear of God and thus live however one wants. But if Philippians 2:12 says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and TREMBLING (WHICH MEANS IT IS TALKING ABOUT FEAR), then we are to cast out this FEAR by keeping His Word (perfecting love). It's the only way to cast out fear.

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Right, you don't have to keep trying to earn your salvation.

Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, He was. Look we both know you don't like His words on how a person would be in danger of being cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon a woman in lust and thus this is the reason why you attempt to allegorize them. There are other verses that refer to hell. Do you allegorize those, too?

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Other verses are other verses. Some are allegories using the same kind of hyperbolic language that OT prophets used. Many are parables. Some are neither. And it's not what Jesus said that I disagree with, it's what you are saying that I disagree with.

Bible Highlighter said:

The other verses of Jesus pointing out how certain sins can keep us out of Heaven, and or keeping certain commands is tied to eternal life is relevant to Matthew 5:28-30 because they do not use metaphors and yet they demolish a sin and still be saved type belief that you hold to. Matthew 5:28-30 is not the only passage that Jesus warns us about how sin can destroy our souls. But if you do not want to heed His warnings on sin, that is on you.

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One can heed His warnings without coming to the conclusion that He is threatening to incinerate those He saved every time they have a sinful thought.

BNR32FAN said:

There are examples where faith does not always produce works.

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Faith that produces no works at all is dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

John 15:2 is a prime example. Branches cannot be in Christ without having faith.

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In John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers, like Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no good fruit from a good tree. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached were never saved or sustained by Christ. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Also 1 Corinthians 13:3 indicates both faith and works without love which profits nothing. And James 2:14-26 James is addressing brethren of the faith who do not have works. So there are several examples where faith does not always produce works brother Dan. Be blessed

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In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) once we are in the presence of the Lord and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because He has appeared and believers will be with Him forever, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity.

So Paul is not teaching that we are saved by faith "plus acts of love/works." All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

In regards to James 2:14-26, just because this letter is addressed to brethren, does not mean that everyone in a professing group of believers is a genuine believer. The key word in James 2:14 is "says-claims" to have faith, but produces no works. Such a person has an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Also, In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

We have discussed this before, but usually don't come to a complete agreement. You be blessed.

Bible Highlighter said:

Right, so it's not Belief Alone-ism.

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So it's belief + works? Is that what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26? Is it 50% belief and 50% works that save us?

You have to keep His Word in order to perfect the love of God and to cast out fear.

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Only genuine believers/those who are born of God keep His Word and perfect the love of God, which casts out fear.

Your previous statement on Philippians 2:12 attempted to undermine the fear of God and thus live however one wants.

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That is a straw man argument. I clearly stressed that fear means fear and I did not leave out reverence and respect. God is not an unloving tyrant, so no unhealthy fear here.

But if Philippians 2:12 says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and TREMBLING (WHICH MEANS IT IS TALKING ABOUT FEAR), then we are to cast out this FEAR by keeping His Word (perfecting love). It's the only way to cast out fear.

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I never said it wasn't talking about fear, but you are taking this to the extreme. You are obsessed with creating two separate classes of Christians. 1. Those who work out their salvation with fear and trembling, keep His Word and perfect love. 2. Those who refuse to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, do not keep His Word or perfect love, but instead, just continuously live like the devil.

Danthemailman said:

Faith that produces no works at all is dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

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Who is James addressing in this epistle?

“James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Danthemailman said:

In John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers, like Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

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So then your saying that these branches whom Christ said were “in Me” were never actually in Christ to begin with. That’s contradicting the very words Jesus actually spoke. Furthermore your saying that these branches who were never in Christ were taken away from Him. If they were never in Christ to begin with how could they be taken away? Just like in Galatians 5:4 when Paul said “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace” are we to conclude that these Galatians who were “severed from Christ” were never actually in Christ to begin with? Wouldn’t that make Paul’s statement incorrect in saying that they were severed from Christ if they were never joined to Christ to begin with?

Danthemailman said:

Faith that produces no works at all is dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers, like Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no good fruit from a good tree. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached were never saved or sustained by Christ. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul is stressing that love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) once we are in the presence of the Lord and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because He has appeared and believers will be with Him forever, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity.

So Paul is not teaching that we are saved by faith "plus acts of love/works." All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel. (Ephesians 1:13. We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

In regards to James 2:14-26, just because this letter is addressed to brethren, does not mean that everyone in a professing group of believers is a genuine believer. The key word in James 2:14 is "says-claims" to have faith, but produces no works. Such a person has an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Also, In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

We have discussed this before, but usually don't come to a complete agreement. You be blessed.

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Why should I care more about what AT Robertson says over the early church writers or the Eastern Orthodox Church who are Greek experts? St Iranaeus was taught by John and spoke Greek fluently and has refuted eternal security over 1800 years ago.

Danthemailman said:

I never said it wasn't talking about fear, but you are taking this to the extreme. You are obsessed with creating two separate classes of Christians. 1. Those who work out their salvation with fear and trembling, keep His Word and perfect love. 2. Those who refuse to work out their salvation with fear and trembling, do not keep His Word or perfect love, but instead, just continuously live like the devil.

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And if you disagree with BH, you must be of the latter persuasion. The only reason you're finding big flaws in his reasoning, is because you want to enjoy sin and still be saved.

Danthemailman said:

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

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The men He was speaking to didn’t need the Holy Spirit to guide them because they had Jesus Christ Himself to guide them. You speak as if He were addressing a random crowd of people but He was ONLY speaking directly to His 11 faithful apostles. No one else was present to hear this message. And what did He say to them. Verse 4 He told them to remain in Him. Verse 5 He told them why they must remain in Him. Verse 6 He told them the consequences if they do not remain in Him. And verse 7 He told them what they can expect IF they remain in Him. Nowhere in this message is there any indication that these men were incapable of failing to remain in Him. If they were in fact incapable of failing to remain in Him then this entire message would be completely useless. There would be no need for Him to tell them to remain in Him if they were not capable of failing to remain in Him. And He certainly wouldn’t have said in verse 7 “IF you remain in Me”. That is a clear indication that even His 11 faithful apostles had a choice to make. We know for a fact that these men had faith and yet by this message we can also see that there was no guarantee that they would remain in Christ. That choice was left up to them. The branches who were cut off were cut off because they did not remain in Him. They were in Christ at one time just like His 11 apostles but the difference is they did not remain in Him as His 11 apostles did. Reformed theology does not line up with the scriptures brother. You need to let go of doctrines and allow the scriptures to say what they are saying without trying to change what was actually said for the sake of holding on to doctrines. Let the scriptures teach what they are teaching brother. Surely you see passages like John 15 and think to yourself this can’t be saying what it appears to be saying. That’s a problem friend. It means your not accepting what the scriptures are actually saying. These doctrines your holding on to didn’t exist before the 16th century, that’s why there’s no evidence to support them in the early church writings. Try to be open minded and ask the Lord for understanding. God bless

MMXX said:

And if you disagree with BH, you must be of the latter persuasion. The only reason you're finding big flaws in his reasoning, is because you want to enjoy sin and still be saved.

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That’s an assumption friend. Many people who believe in reformed theology truly believe they are honoring and serving God. I know many people in my church who truly live to serve God who believe as brother Dan here. I would say these people are probably more obedient to God than I am. Just because someone believes that obedience isn’t necessary for salvation doesn’t necessarily mean that they intend to sin any more than those of us who believe obedience is necessary for salvation.

BNR32FAN said:

That’s an assumption friend. Many people who believe in reformed theology truly believe they are honoring and serving God. I know many people in my church who truly live to serve God who believe as brother Dan here. I would say these people are probably more obedient to God than I am. Just because someone believes that obedience isn’t necessary for salvation doesn’t necessarily mean that they intend to sin any more than those of us who believe obedience is necessary for salvation.

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When one believes that obedience isn’t necessary for salvation, then their motivation towards obedience is love, loyalty, reverence and devotion to the Lord. It's not about them, but rather it's all about the Lord. They're not obedient because they have to be, but because they want to be.