Dr John Dickson: "Rapture" teaching only emerged 19thC, Revelation not a timetable

eclipsenow · Mar 9, 2021

Hi all,
Undeceptions is a great apologetics podcast I listen to regularly by a friend and client, Dr John Dickson. It has so many great subjects that for your own Christian encouragement I ask you to subscribe to it and check out some of the other headings.

But for this one - you can either listen online or subscribe to the podcast and search for March 2021 "The World's End". It was just such a clever episode.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 10, 2021

Hi I made it through 20 minutes of this and that was enough. The book of Rev warns not to ad or take away from the book and this historical view is guilty of that if the literal view is true. At about the 20 minute mark he notes that Jesus does not conquer the beast through violence. This heresy of symbolic interpretation already fulfilled in history will not stand the test of comparing all scriptures on this subject and it requires other foundational errors to build upon such as the kingdom of God is only spiritual and the church is now Israel.
I can present a comprehensive case for the literal interpretation of this book which paints a before and after picture along a specific timeline and shows life on earth continuing after the 2nd coming and detailed prophecies that are supported throughout the Bible on this. This would be along post and I don't want to make the effort unless you are willing to read and consider it. As a starting point I will point to the prophecies about Jesus in Luke 1. 0 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

My case will show how this very thing Jesus taking the throne of David achieves this exact kind of deliverance for national Israel and these prophecies , covenants and oaths are all literal and their detailed fulfillment is clearly taught.

The world right now is lining up for these things to be achieved.

BABerean2 · Mar 10, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

My case will show how this very thing Jesus taking the throne of David achieves this exact kind of deliverance for national Israel and these prophecies , covenants and oaths are all literal and their detailed fulfillment is clearly taught.

The world right now is lining up for these things to be achieved.

What was the covenant promised to Abraham, that through his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3?
Who is that seed found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16?

Is it the New Covenant fulfilled by Christ's blood at Calvary, which is found in Hebrews 12:22-24?
Is it the "everlasting" covenant found in Hebrews 13:20?

Was it accepted by about 3,000 Israelites on the Day of Pentecost, when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36?

.

jgr · Mar 10, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
My case will show how this very thing Jesus taking the throne of David achieves this exact kind of deliverance for national Israel and these prophecies , covenants and oaths are all literal and their detailed fulfillment is clearly taught.

How is "national Israel" identified? What criteria do Jesus use?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?

eclipsenow · Mar 10, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi I made it through 20 minutes of this and that was enough.

Then you missed the best bits.

The book of Rev warns not to ad or take away from the book

Agreed - so don't chop out Chapter 1 where John shows that Revelation is to and about his generation and about to start soon!

and this historical view is guilty of that if the literal view is true.

Nope - we haven't ignored chapter 1 as literal futurists have.
We also haven't ignored the language used and the symbols used and the hermeneutics that explain how that generation received this text.

At about the 20 minute mark he notes that Jesus does not conquer the beast through violence.

Wasn't that about his kingdom growing throughout the world?
Are you saying Christians need to pick up a gun and go holy war on the world?

This heresy of symbolic interpretation already fulfilled in history will not stand the test of comparing all scriptures on this subject

It does, and most Reformers were historicists / amil.

and it requires other foundational errors to build upon such as the kingdom of God is only spiritual and the church is now Israel.

He didn't say the kingdom is only spiritual - the future IS a new heavens and new earth here and now.
All I can say is finish the podcast.

I can present a comprehensive case for the literal interpretation of this book which paints a before and after picture along a specific timeline and shows life on earth continuing after the 2nd coming and detailed prophecies that are supported throughout the Bible on this.

I can disprove each and every verse you use to do this - and to show Revelation is a sermon about how to live in these last days - 2000 years and counting - while we wait for the very real new heavens and new earth to be brought to earth.

This would be along post and I don't want to make the effort unless you are willing to read and consider it.

You haven't earned that right until you've bothered to listen to the whole podcast. You want me to sit at a computer and READ all your posts, and I'm just asking you to listen to one podcast which can happen bit by bit while you drive or do the dishes. It's not hard.

Earn the right.

jgr · Mar 10, 2021

eclipsenow said:
It does, and most Reformers were historicists / amil.

They all were. Recognizing and enduring the apostasized papacy as the antichrist of their era meant that they would have found the idea of a rapture laughable.

eclipsenow · Mar 10, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
As a starting point I will point to the prophecies about Jesus in Luke 1. 0 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Then if it is a literal kingdom your literal earthly reading of this prophecy failed the moment Jesus died and rose again and ascended to heaven. The church has been a spiritual kingdom since then ("My kingdom is not of this world...") and your literalistic interpretation is that he will reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER.

Well, if it's literal, he HASN'T reigned for over 2000 years.

My case will show how this very thing Jesus taking the throne of David achieves this exact kind of deliverance for national Israel and these prophecies , covenants and oaths are all literal and their detailed fulfillment is clearly taught.

Except that it failed, the temple was destroyed in AD70 (exactly as Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 with the 'abomination that causes desolation' speech), and national Israel went into the wilderness for 2000 years. So much for a rule that lasts 'forever'.

Also, if you read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews about 10 times each, I'm pretty sure you'll come to see that Covenant Theology of both Jew and Greek coming into the one kingdom - the new Israel - the church - really is the kingdom Jesus was announcing.

And that we are in eschatological tension now, both enjoying being 'seated in heaven' right now while waiting for the unknowable, unpredictable, surprise event that the second half of Matthew 24 compares 'that day' to the flood catching Noah's generation off guard, a thief in the night, faithful and unfaithful servants not knowing when the master will return, and bridesmaids waiting till midnight.

The world right now is lining up for these things to be achieved.

As has been claimed by every futurist since this millennial stuff became fashionable a few hundred years ago and started the Mormons, the JW's, Jonestown, Waco Texas, etc, let alone probably a few hundred failed end-times-tables submitted to these very forums!

Sorry, but I take Matthew 24 and comparable chapters seriously. We cannot know, and all these failed end-times-tables predictions just make Christianity look about as credible as this guy.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 10, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Then if it is a literal kingdom your literal earthly reading of this prophecy failed the moment Jesus died and rose again and ascended to heaven. The church has been a spiritual kingdom since then ("My kingdom is not of this world...") and your literalistic interpretation is that he will reign over the house of Jacob FOREVER.

Well, if it's literal, he HASN'T reigned for over 2000 years.

Except that it failed, the temple was destroyed in AD70 (exactly as Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 with the 'abomination that causes desolation' speech), and national Israel went into the wilderness for 2000 years. So much for a rule that lasts 'forever'.

Also, if you read Romans and Galatians and Hebrews about 10 times each, I'm pretty sure you'll come to see that Covenant Theology of both Jew and Greek coming into the one kingdom - the new Israel - the church - really is the kingdom Jesus was announcing.

And that we are in eschatological tension now, both enjoying being 'seated in heaven' right now while waiting for the unknowable, unpredictable, surprise event that the second half of Matthew 24 compares 'that day' to the flood catching Noah's generation off guard, a thief in the night, faithful and unfaithful servants not knowing when the master will return, and bridesmaids waiting till midnight.

As has been claimed by every futurist since this millennial stuff became fashionable a few hundred years ago and started the Mormons, the JW's, Jonestown, Waco Texas, etc, let alone probably a few hundred failed end-times-tables submitted to these very forums!

Sorry, but I take Matthew 24 and comparable chapters seriously. We cannot know, and all these failed end-times-tables predictions just make Christianity look about as credible as this guy.
View attachment 296055

Hi the prophecies of Jerusalem being destroyed as well as the Temple also were made by Jesus and they indeed occur. Now think of the difficulty factor in having to keep the oaths to Abraham and prophecies that Israel will be delivered and from the time of deliverance the will serve the LORD in holiness and without fear from that time on.

This before and after picture shows life clearly continuing after the LORD has come and is king over all the earth. Zech 14 show the LORD coming with His saints when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. The LORD melts the enemies and in that day the LORD is king over all the earth. Also in that day they will say the LORD is one. Now when the LORD comes the Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river that flows year round is created and one of the directions is east which would take it to the dead sea. The nations which are left are now required to come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. You see the LORD is come and they are worshiping the king who is Jesus and they confess the LORD is one . This is notable as Israel is now confessing Jesus is LORD. Now this river that flows east flows year round and in Ezekiel 47 this river does indeed make it to the dead sea which is healed and becomes a prosperous fishing area. This occurs at the time the 12 tribes are given their inheritance.

Now in Hosea 1-3 we see those called not my people are also promised that in the day of Jezreel they will be called sons of the living God. This also comes after Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice and it is clearly a latter days prophecy and David also is said to be raised up. The place Jezreel is the other end of the valley of Meggido where Armageddon takes place at the 2nd coming.

Now in Jer 31 the promises immediately after the new covenant which Jesus clearly brought in are very curious. God doubly affirms that Israel will not cease to be a nation nor will their seed be cast off for all they have done. Indeed God knew that Israel would reject Jesus and the destruction of 70 AD was coming. This affirmation is no accident to be placed here and what follows is more proof.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.” Now here Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt and it is rebuilt at a time when the valleys are full of dead bodies. From that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. How can that be in you view possible? Jerusalem was torn down in 70 AD and not rebuilt then when dead bodies filled the valleys and again this lines up with Zech 14 and Joel and Rev where the LORD comes and many are slain. And here is when Jerusalem is rebuilt. It cannot be the new Jerusalem not filled with dead and the transition into being now holy again matches Luke one prophecies.

I agree that there is a spiritual kingdom relating to the gospel but this kingdom is not a mutually exclusive idea that the LORD Jesus is not going to reign on earth. This is a short reply to your dismissal of futurism.

eclipsenow · Mar 11, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi the prophecies of Jerusalem being destroyed as well as the Temple also were made by Jesus and they indeed occur. Now think of the difficulty factor in having to keep the oaths to Abraham and prophecies that Israel will be delivered and from the time of deliverance the will serve the LORD in holiness and without fear from that time on.

This before and after picture shows life clearly continuing after the LORD has come and is king over all the earth. Zech 14 show the LORD coming with His saints when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. The LORD melts the enemies and in that day the LORD is king over all the earth. Also in that day they will say the LORD is one. Now when the LORD comes the Mt of Olives splits in two and a new river that flows year round is created and one of the directions is east which would take it to the dead sea. The nations which are left are now required to come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. You see the LORD is come and they are worshiping the king who is Jesus and they confess the LORD is one . This is notable as Israel is now confessing Jesus is LORD. Now this river that flows east flows year round and in Ezekiel 47 this river does indeed make it to the dead sea which is healed and becomes a prosperous fishing area. This occurs at the time the 12 tribes are given their inheritance.

Now in Hosea 1-3 we see those called not my people are also promised that in the day of Jezreel they will be called sons of the living God. This also comes after Israel has gone many days without a king or sacrifice and it is clearly a latter days prophecy and David also is said to be raised up. The place Jezreel is the other end of the valley of Meggido where Armageddon takes place at the 2nd coming.

Now in Jer 31 the promises immediately after the new covenant which Jesus clearly brought in are very curious. God doubly affirms that Israel will not cease to be a nation nor will their seed be cast off for all they have done. Indeed God knew that Israel would reject Jesus and the destruction of 70 AD was coming. This affirmation is no accident to be placed here and what follows is more proof.
38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.” Now here Jerusalem needs to be rebuilt and it is rebuilt at a time when the valleys are full of dead bodies. From that time on it will be holy and never thrown down again. How can that be in you view possible? Jerusalem was torn down in 70 AD and not rebuilt then when dead bodies filled the valleys and again this lines up with Zech 14 and Joel and Rev where the LORD comes and many are slain. And here is when Jerusalem is rebuilt. It cannot be the new Jerusalem not filled with dead and the transition into being now holy again matches Luke one prophecies.

I agree that there is a spiritual kingdom relating to the gospel but this kingdom is not a mutually exclusive idea that the LORD Jesus is not going to reign on earth. This is a short reply to your dismissal of futurism.

So I take it you've listened to the rest of the podcast? It really is a good podcast - and you should check out some of the other episodes and subjects as well. Like BLM, 'mistakes' in the bible, etc. He covers some amazing stuff.

To really engage with all the prophesies you've called on to support a literalist view of reading Revelation would require me to devote hours of extra study - especially when your OT views are not the point - the fact that the "Rapture" is a modern invention IS! The least you could do is finish the podcast that started this thread before you completely hijack it onto YOUR verses.

jgr · Mar 11, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
My case will show how this very thing Jesus taking the throne of David achieves this exact kind of deliverance for national Israel and these prophecies , covenants and oaths are all literal and their detailed fulfillment is clearly taught.

jgr said:
How is "national Israel" identified? What criteria do Jesus use?

1. DNA
2. Religion
3. Culture
4. Domicile
5. ?

Is there a Scriptural answer?

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 11, 2021

jgr said:
Is there a Scriptural answer?

the boundaries given to the land to the seed of Abraham are stated over and over. The prophecies of Daniel 9 are to Daniels people and the Holy city, is there any doubt that this is Jews and Jerusalem? Daniel confessed for the sins of Israel and wept for Jerusalem earlier in Chapter 9. In Ezekiel 47 after the MT of Olives in Zech 14 is split the dead sea is healed and that is when the 12 tribes are given their inheritance in those boundaries. Jer 31 when is the city rebuilt when dead bodies fill the valleys and form then on it is holy and never thrown down again? Jer 3 says the same thing “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts. who is no more following their evil hearts? Jews in Jerusalem. The futurist view covers hundreds of prophecies that show what the LORD will do in the latter days to those gathered back from all the nations.

The other somewhat obvious concept is that when Jesus takes over the justice and judgment are established and the nations no longer deceived would produce a world that it would be obvious that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron and give no evidence to the idea that Satan is still loose and in charge. Right now the world looks as if the Luciferian teachings are taking over and global persecution of Biblical Christianity is on the horizon. The new jerusalem is coming but that is after 1000 years of Jesus ruling. Finallly read Isaiah 61 and look at how zion centered the day of vengeance of the our God is and how Zion is saved and comforted in this time. This passage is clear if you believe prophecy this is why Jesus stopped in the middle of the sentence and said this day this is fulfilled in your hearing. That is everything up to declaring the acceptable year. After that the same one who proclaims the acceptable year brings in the day of vengeance. Read that passage and try to rule out the decsendants of jacob the 12 tribe who historically are Israel .

jgr · Mar 12, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
the boundaries given to the land to the seed of Abraham are stated over and over. The prophecies of Daniel 9 are to Daniels people and the Holy city, is there any doubt that this is Jews and Jerusalem? Daniel confessed for the sins of Israel and wept for Jerusalem earlier in Chapter 9. In Ezekiel 47 after the MT of Olives in Zech 14 is split the dead sea is healed and that is when the 12 tribes are given their inheritance in those boundaries. Jer 31 when is the city rebuilt when dead bodies fill the valleys and form then on it is holy and never thrown down again? Jer 3 says the same thing “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts. who is no more following their evil hearts? Jews in Jerusalem. The futurist view covers hundreds of prophecies that show what the LORD will do in the latter days to those gathered back from all the nations.

The other somewhat obvious concept is that when Jesus takes over the justice and judgment are established and the nations no longer deceived would produce a world that it would be obvious that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron and give no evidence to the idea that Satan is still loose and in charge. Right now the world looks as if the Luciferian teachings are taking over and global persecution of Biblical Christianity is on the horizon. The new jerusalem is coming but that is after 1000 years of Jesus ruling. Finallly read Isaiah 61 and look at how zion centered the day of vengeance of the our God is and how Zion is saved and comforted in this time. This passage is clear if you believe prophecy this is why Jesus stopped in the middle of the sentence and said this day this is fulfilled in your hearing. That is everything up to declaring the acceptable year. After that the same one who proclaims the acceptable year brings in the day of vengeance. Read that passage and try to rule out the decsendants of jacob the 12 tribe who historically are Israel .

In an attempt to distill your answer, I understand it to be "DNA" and "domicile". So an individual who possesses Abrahamic DNA, and lives within geographic Israel, will be considered by Jesus to be a qualified member of "national Israel", i.e. a "national Israelite".

Have I understood that correctly?

If so, it raises numerous further questions.

You state that "Zion is saved". Does that mean that all "national Israelites" will be saved, as a result of their DNA and domicile?

eclipsenow · Mar 12, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
the boundaries given to the land to the seed of Abraham are stated over and over. The prophecies of Daniel 9 are to Daniels people and the Holy city, is there any doubt that this is Jews and Jerusalem? Daniel confessed for the sins of Israel and wept for Jerusalem earlier in Chapter 9. In Ezekiel 47 after the MT of Olives in Zech 14 is split the dead sea is healed and that is when the 12 tribes are given their inheritance in those boundaries. Jer 31 when is the city rebuilt when dead bodies fill the valleys and form then on it is holy and never thrown down again? Jer 3 says the same thing “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts. who is no more following their evil hearts? Jews in Jerusalem. The futurist view covers hundreds of prophecies that show what the LORD will do in the latter days to those gathered back from all the nations.

The other somewhat obvious concept is that when Jesus takes over the justice and judgment are established and the nations no longer deceived would produce a world that it would be obvious that Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron and give no evidence to the idea that Satan is still loose and in charge. Right now the world looks as if the Luciferian teachings are taking over and global persecution of Biblical Christianity is on the horizon. The new jerusalem is coming but that is after 1000 years of Jesus ruling. Finallly read Isaiah 61 and look at how zion centered the day of vengeance of the our God is and how Zion is saved and comforted in this time. This passage is clear if you believe prophecy this is why Jesus stopped in the middle of the sentence and said this day this is fulfilled in your hearing. That is everything up to declaring the acceptable year. After that the same one who proclaims the acceptable year brings in the day of vengeance. Read that passage and try to rule out the decsendants of jacob the 12 tribe who historically are Israel .

I mean why do I bother? What are the forum rules about hijacking a thread and not even addressing a thread's Opening Post? (OP.)

Everything always goes on a million different tangents. There are too many whacko theologies being presented without their presuppositions questioned to even know where to start these conversations!

But before I get sucked into your OT hijacking of this thread -

I started this thread to discuss my friend Dr John Dickson's excellent podcast. The Rapture as understood today is a recent invention. Deal with it.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 12, 2021

jgr said:
In an attempt to distill your answer, I understand it to be "DNA" and "domicile". So an individual who possesses Abrahamic DNA, and lives within geographic Israel, will be considered by Jesus to be a qualified member of "national Israel", i.e. a "national Israelite".

Have I understood that correctly?

If so, it raises numerous further questions.

You state that "Zion is saved". Does that mean that all "national Israelites" will be saved, as a result of their DNA and domicile?

They are saved by faith and teh blindness that has been on them is lifted and that is seen in the confession the LORD is one when the LORD comes with His saints in Zech 14the LORD is king in that day and the nations which are left come to Jerusalem will now worship the king or they get no rain. This Child given has come and taken the throne of David is Jesus and the new heart promised to those gathered back to the mountains of Israel which have long been desolate is given at the time the LORD removes their reproach from among the nations and the LORD will now be hallowed in them as the remnant that makes it through these days is born again and brought into the new covenant just like Jer 30 and 31 show that the city will indeed need to be rebuilt at a time when the dead bodies fill the valleys and from then on it is Holy and not thrown down ever again. This is what Luke 1 says that Jesus will keep the oaths and fulfill teh prophecies to deliver Israel from their enemies and from that time on they will worship and serve the LORD in Holiness and without fear. This is literally coming and like Joseph revealing himself to His brothers it is a glorious day.

It is the day of Jezreel where not my people are now sons of the living God and the LORD breaks the battle bow from the earth. Jezreel and Armageddon are the same place. Hos 3 clearly makes this a latter day prophecy and note that after many days without a king or sacrifice it is linked to the return of the kingdom in the latter days. The return of the sacrifice is not a return to an acceptable sacrifice other than Jesus but the very stage for the man of sin to be revealed in and the abomination of desolation to take place in.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 12, 2021

eclipsenow said:
I mean why do I bother? What are the forum rules about hijacking a thread and not even addressing a thread's Opening Post? (OP.)

Everything always goes on a million different tangents. There are too many whacko theologies being presented without their presuppositions questioned to even know where to start these conversations!

But before I get sucked into your OT hijacking of this thread -

I started this thread to discuss my friend Dr John Dickson's excellent podcast. The Rapture as understood today is a recent invention. Deal with it.

I believe in the rapture but the timeline and events are coming weather or not their is a rapture or not. If there is no rapture the man of sin will still be revealed in the temple in the middle of the week. He will blaspheme the LORD and exalt himself above all that is God with lying signs and wonders. Your guy has taken an allegorical view and historical view of scripture to come to his conclusions. I could care less about the rapture although it is a promise that we will not all die and some will be changed in a twinkling an eye and if you don't believe in pretrib it is a minor point. It is a major point to deny the literalness of Revelation as that is taking away from the book. I invested minutes and he did not bring up his main topic. He has so many foundational errors in the 1st 20 minutes that must be part of the topic since it is part of his case. That pesky old testament will be like the scriptures Jesus shared with the two disciples on the road 25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. I believe what the prophets have spoken is literal and will be filfilled. That case is strong and tracking with reality.

jgr · Mar 12, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
They are saved by faith

That is true of the entirety of humanity.

So "they" are no different from all other humanity. They can only receive salvation through faith. Sadly, as with all humanity, not all of them will exercise that faith, and they will be lost.

But their DNA and domicile are irrelevant, and do not determine their faith.

Relevance applies to their faith alone.

Nothing else.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 12, 2021

Not so as Ezekiel 38 mentions nations and destiny. In Luke 1 what are the prophecies, oaths and covenants Luke is saying Jesus will fulfill when they are delivered from enemies and attain a new found holiness in the day of their deliverance? These details can be laid out with many specific details and the LORD saw fit to put in distinctions of Jew and Gentile still after the kingdom has come. Salvation for everyone is in Jesus. These prophecies are literal and all tell the same before and after picture.

Here are a few that show distinctions to come after this deliverance.

18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction.[fn]
19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. 21 Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. 22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

Eze 36 How long is never? This prophecy is to those gathered back to the mountains of Israel long been desolate and declares in this day God will remove the reproach of the nations and give them a new heart and they will never hear the taunts of the nations again. This is the type of oath and prophecy that LUke is talking about.

9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yes, I will cause men to walk on you, My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.”
13 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they say to you, ‘You devour men and bereave your nation of children,’ 14 therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,” says the Lord GOD. 15 “Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”

And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
33 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

There are more promises about this time and transition than there are about Jesus accomplishments in the 1st advent. These are just as literal and will be fulfilled. Yes there is a spiritual Israel too and kingdom but this idea does not nullify these works or the millennium.

jgr · Mar 12, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Not so as Ezekiel 38 mentions nations and destiny. In Luke 1 what are the prophecies, oaths and covenants Luke is saying Jesus will fulfill when they are delivered from enemies and attain a new found holiness in the day of their deliverance? These details can be laid out with many specific details and the LORD saw fit to put in distinctions of Jew and Gentile still after the kingdom has come. Salvation for everyone is in Jesus. These prophecies are literal and all tell the same before and after picture.

Here are a few that show distinctions to come after this deliverance.

18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction.[fn]
19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border. 20 And it will be for a sign and for a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD because of the oppressors, and He will send them a Savior and a Mighty One, and He will deliver them. 21 Then the LORD will be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians will know the LORD in that day, and will make sacrifice and offering; yes, they will make a vow to the LORD and perform it. 22 And the LORD will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the LORD, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, 25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the LORD,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 “For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

Eze 36 How long is never? This prophecy is to those gathered back to the mountains of Israel long been desolate and declares in this day God will remove the reproach of the nations and give them a new heart and they will never hear the taunts of the nations again. This is the type of oath and prophecy that LUke is talking about.

9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yes, I will cause men to walk on you, My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.”
13 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because they say to you, ‘You devour men and bereave your nation of children,’ 14 therefore you shall devour men no more, nor bereave your nation anymore,” says the Lord GOD. 15 “Nor will I let you hear the taunts of the nations anymore, nor bear the reproach of the peoples anymore, nor shall you cause your nation to stumble anymore,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”

And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
33 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

There are more promises about this time and transition than there are about Jesus accomplishments in the 1st advent. These are just as literal and will be fulfilled. Yes there is a spiritual Israel too and kingdom but this idea does not nullify these works or the millennium.

You continue to be unable or unwilling to identify the distinguishing characteristics of "they".

I understand you to say that "they" are identified (and chosen) by their DNA and domicile, whereupon, as a result of that DNA and domicile, they will be granted saving faith.

Yes or no?

eclipsenow · Mar 12, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
It is a major point to deny the literalness of Revelation as that is taking away from the book.

Jesus spoke in more metaphors and symbols and parables than almost anyone else in the New Testament - does it mean there's no truth in his parables unless we read them literally? Must I blind my eye, hate my parents, and force a camel through the eye of a needle?

I invested minutes

To really discuss this with you could take hours, and the podcast only takes an hour and the MAIN theme (already in my heading) is that Revelation is NOT a timetable for us to guess, and reguess, and refumble, and embarrass ourselves for the thousandth time! Maybe I wrote the heading the wrong way around, and maybe I shouldn't have emphasised the rapture so much in my last post. But there is a LOT of good stuff in that episode and I really encourage you to listen to it again.

EG: What do the movies "The Hunger Games" have to do with us rich entitled Westerners discussing the end of the world? What attitude were they critiquing?

Anyway, just like Corinthians or Galatians or Acts, Revelation is discussing things going on with John's readers - with and to and about his generation.

John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Then the symbolic imagery describes Roman persecutions, Roman wealth and temptations, natural disasters, and basically living in this fallen, tempting world we've been in for the last 2000 years.

IF Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand then the book has been a tease and irrelevant to suffering Christians. If it was to and about the original suffering Christians, then it has been a book of comfort for 2000 years. But if it's a timetable of the end:-

what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 12, 2021

jgr said:
You continue to be unable or unwilling to identify the distinguishing characteristics of "they".

I understand you to say that "they" are identified (and chosen) by their DNA and domicile, whereupon, as a result of that DNA and domicile, they will be granted saving faith.

Yes or no?

There are many jews who will perish and take the mark of the beast and what not. God's election is sovereign and God has made promises starting with the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. The genealogies follow the promise to Abraham and God notes all the world will be blessed in Abraham's seed and that his descendants will be a great nation. This passed through the patriarchs to the 12 tribes and the covenant is for the land based on Gods determined boundaries. These prophecies are added to with great detail and affirm a destination for those who are brought back from all the nations where God had scattered them.

A good author ties together the plot lines at the end of the book and these plot lines are the LORD is king over all the earth, not just Israel. Israel has the kingdom established and no longer is a reproach and there will be peace in the world. Those who were called not God's people are called sons of the living God. Satan is bound when the LORD returns and the nations are no longer deceived. The angel sounds the triumph when Satan who offered Jesus the kingdoms of this world and now the rightful king is on the thrown and the seed of the woman has indeed crushed the authority of the serpent. The LORD has revealed what will happen and even given us a time line. The LORD will rule with a rod of iron and certainly a rod of iron will not be needed in the new Jerusalem. Jer 31 notes the new covenant was for Israel and made for the day the LORD removes their sins and all will know him and have the laws written on their hearts. We know that experience as being born again and in mass the elect who make it through the 7 years are the ones who inherit the promise. That is why Jer 31 God declares Israel will not cease to be a nation nor will God cast off the seed of Israel for all they have done because God knew about 70 AD and a almost 2000 year diaspora. That is why Jer 31 ends with the city Jerusalem needing to be rebuilt at the time dead bodies fill the valleys and from then on it is holy and not thrown down again. Again this cannot be the new Jerusalem not with valleys of dead and in need of a rebuilding.

if the LORD knew Jeremiah before He made him He also knows those both Jew and Gentile who will come to him and the LORD says He alone predicts the things that are to come and sets them in order so taking God at His word and believing he will do just as he said seems to me a biblical mandate. Now teaching the church is now Israel is like telling a girl your wife died and then you marry her and one day your wife shows up. You see Israel was not a nation for so long and then she shows up and that should have you thinking maybe.

Dr John Dickson: "Rapture" teaching only emerged 19thC, Revelation not a timetable

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