Your thoughts on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17

Abraxos · Mar 5, 2021

I think this is why America and 'Jerusalem' are often viewed as Mystery, Babylon. The United States deep roots in Christianity and, to a degree, parody itself as a Christian nation, whereas Jerusalem is both treated as "the body of Christ/ the Church" and as the place that shed the blood of God's servant's - a duality of both the historical context and the figurative manner it is used in Revelation as a place of exodus. (Rev. 11.8)

But yeah, it is basically the only way I can come to terms with the OT's prophetic duality in conjunction with the NT, Revelation and with the consideration of extrabiblical writings. I suspect that very few would view or consider the eschatological Babylon to be none other than Christiandom itself - or more accurately, the infiltration of compromising and profiteering within the church body. My understanding is basically this 'watered-down' Christianity has caused divisiveness within the body, establishing a weak and skewed view of what it means to be a believer, holding to the name 'Babel' 'confusion', perhaps implemented deliberately as a system of control. That system of control being exactly what Revelation 17 entails.

That said, if one can get past the approach of seeing and applying Revelation purely as a "crystal ball" instead of more as a reference to discipleship, it can be spiritually edifying and be applied as a practical message of hope for someone after the LORD's own heart.

Inkfingers · Mar 10, 2021

Babylon is the non-Godly world empire-seeking system.

Belteshazzar(Daniel) · Mar 15, 2021

food4thought said:
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael

Through my years of studying the book of Revelation and America's place in the end of days. It has became apparent to me that the spirit of Babylon was moved to another location from that of its original birth. America is not mentioned in the Bible as such, however if one looks into the very foundation on which this nation was founded you will discover it not at all to be Christian. I am not a conspiracy nut by any means. The founding fathers of the U.S. were mostly freemasons and believed in Divine Providence but not in the God of Israel or Jesus. I have read the history of this cultic religion and it boils down to the belief that Lucifer is the true light bearer because it was by him that man was enlightened to true knowledge. Washington D.C. is filled with pagan temples and symbolism to express this idea. Does it not make sense that satan would have a following of people willing to do his will from the start promising them freedom from God and being gods themselves? America is the largest consumer of foreign goods does it not make sense that the merchant sailors would mourn her loss from far away? Does it not make sense that there is no army from the west? Does not the Bible say that it will be a desolate wasteland where no man can pass? The spirit of Babylon is world wide but America and its rebellious Spirit and mocking of God through its laws that defy that which is Holy; the sacrificing of babies to the god of convenience; calling good evil and evil good. A pagan god to greet those promising them liberty. to me America is a queen who has not been widowed for our land has never seated a king but we have our lady of liberty.

AlasBabylon · Mar 17, 2021

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Revelation 17/Revelation 18's Babylon, the ruling global evil empire at the evil end of the age, is the symbolic evil twin of ancient Babylon that oppressed the nations, took God's people captive and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Daniel 2's Babylonian statue symbolically lists the major empires that would arise after ancient Babylon [the head of gold.]

Arms of silver = Media/Persia.

Middle of Brass = Greece.

Legs of Iron = Roman Empire which was divided into TWO legs EAST and WEST. EAST = Second Rome [Christian Byzantine empire] and the Third Rome [Christian Tsarist Russia which was destroyed during WW1.] WEST = Holy Roman Empire [First Reich], German monarchy [Second Reich] and Hitler's Third Reich which was destroyed during WW2.

After WW2, a new globalist Babylon arose made up of iron remnants of the legs of iron mixed with miry clay. This is the Babylon of Rev 17/18 which is destined to be destroyed by Christ's second coming when God's eternal Kingdom will be set up.

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Aldebaran · Mar 17, 2021

food4thought said:
In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

I heard someone say during an interview on a Christian radio show today that the Babylon of Revelation is the same as all the others named in the bible. It's the same Babylon where the tower was built in Genesis, the same one that took the children of Israel captive in the book of Daniel, and the same one the Pope just went very close to in Iraq to help bring the religions together as part of the Great Reset. Watch for more activity to happen there, as it will be the headquarters of the antichrist.

Douggg · Mar 17, 2021

Abraxos said:
I think this is why America and 'Jerusalem' are often viewed as Mystery, Babylon. The United States deep roots in Christianity and, to a degree, parody itself as a Christian nation, whereas Jerusalem is both treated as "the body of Christ/ the Church" and as the place that shed the blood of God's servant's - a duality of both the historical context and the figurative manner it is used in Revelation as a place of exodus. (Rev. 11.8)

But yeah, it is basically the only way I can come to terms with the OT's prophetic duality in conjunction with the NT, Revelation and with the consideration of extrabiblical writings. I suspect that very few would view or consider the eschatological Babylon to be none other than Christiandom itself - or more accurately, the infiltration of compromising and profiteering within the church body. My understanding is basically this 'watered-down' Christianity has caused divisiveness within the body, establishing a weak and skewed view of what it means to be a believer, holding to the name 'Babel' 'confusion', perhaps implemented deliberately as a system of control. That system of control being exactly what Revelation 17 entails.

That said, if one can get past the approach of seeing and applying Revelation purely as a "crystal ball" instead of more as a reference to discipleship, it can be spiritually edifying and be applied as a practical message of hope for someone after the LORD's own heart.

I like the artwork and appreciate the effort that went into it.

But the concept is wrong because the great harlot is not mystery babylon the great herself. No more than those who will have the name of the beast on their foreheads are not the beast themselves.

The great harlot sits on my waters. Yet is located on seven mountains. The great harlot appears to be the RCC organization and the Vatican. *

Mystery Babylon the Great, on the other hand, in Revelation 18:24 has been responsible for the blood of all that had been slain upon the face of the earth. Which would go back to the time when Cain slew Abel.

From that, and in Revelation 18 of Babylon is fallen, is fallen.... I think that Babylon the great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels. Mystical - i.e. not a literal physical city.

_____________________________________________________

* one issue with the great harlot being the RCC organization and the Vatican - as well as the theory of all the Christian denominations in the artwork - is that Revelation 17 is the status of the beast in the first century. And the RCC organization and the Vatican, as well as all those Christian denominations were not around in the first century time of John.

Valletta · Mar 18, 2021

Douggg said:
I like the artwork and appreciate the effort that went into it.

But the concept is wrong because the great harlot is not mystery babylon the great herself. No more than those who will have the name of the beast on their foreheads are not the beast themselves.

The great harlot sits on my waters. Yet is located on seven mountains. The great harlot appears to be the RCC organization and the Vatican. *

Mystery Babylon the Great, on the other hand, in Revelation 18:24 has been responsible for the blood of all that had been slain upon the face of the earth. Which would go back to the time when Cain slew Abel.

From that, and in Revelation 18 of Babylon is fallen, is fallen.... I think that Babylon the great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his third of the angels. Mystical - i.e. not a literal physical city.

_____________________________________________________

* one issue with the great harlot being the RCC organization and the Vatican - as well as the theory of all the Christian denominations in the artwork - is that Revelation 17 is the status of the beast in the first century. And the RCC organization and the Vatican, as well as all those Christian denominations were not around in the first century time of John.

What a horrible thing to say, how easy it is to demonize those who disagree with you. You would not even have Revelation and the Bible if it were not for the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books and giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. The Catholic Church also preached, copied, translated into many common languages, and preserved Biblical text century after century. As to seven hills, both Rome and Jerusalem have seven hills. The Vatican happens to be on a hill OUTSIDE of the walls defining ancient Rome, it is NOT one of the seven hills of Rome but it is outside of that ancient city's limits. You have to cross the Tiber river to get to the Vatican.

Douggg · Mar 19, 2021

Valletta said:
What a horrible thing to say, how easy it is to demonize those who disagree with you. You would not even have Revelation and the Bible if it were not for the Catholic Church choosing the 73 books and giving the world the Bible in the late 300s. The Catholic Church also preached, copied, translated into many common languages, and preserved Biblical text century after century. As to seven hills, both Rome and Jerusalem have seven hills. The Vatican happens to be on a hill OUTSIDE of the walls defining ancient Rome, it is NOT one of the seven hills of Rome but it is outside of that ancient city's limits. You have to cross the Tiber river to get to the Vatican.

Hi Valletta, I think the issues came along later as the hierarchy became corrupted. Which led to the inquisition era. The protestants had their issues as well.

Okay, the ten kings will hate the harlot (whoever she is) as they have aligned themselves with the beast (who will be worshiped as God) as they turn their kingdom over to him.

To get right to the point, the EU will be handed over to the beast person to be dictator.

So what organization (the great harlot) has had relations with the kings of Europe from a long term historical perspective?

And why would the ten kings hate the harlot, even though they were in bed with her? What I am thinking is that the Vatican in spite of all its faults proclaims that Jesus is God.

And that is going to go against the mind set that the beast is God.

The beast will be against Jesus, as the beast curses the true God and them in heaven.

So to handle the issue, the ten kings will burn the Vatican to the ground.

______________________________________________

btw, thanks for the geography lesson on the Vatican.

AlasBabylon · Mar 19, 2021

.

The Vatican is NOT Babylon. As blasphemous as the current pope is, many other modern churches have become even more blasphemous. Most current secular and religious institutions are antichrist abominations.

Revelation's Babylon is the end of the age New World Order, the globalist evil empire that is analogous to ancient Babylon [Daniel 2's head of gold.] Revelation's Babylon is Daniel 2's feet of iron mixed with miry clay symbolically ruled by the 10 toes/10 kings who have given their power over to the evil antichrist beast and in the process have systematically undermined, gutted and weakened Babylon from within.

As in Daniel 2, next God's stone cut out without hands will crush the current evil globalist Babylonian NWO to create God's Kingdom on earth.

Belteshazzar(Daniel) · Mar 19, 2021

The idea of ancient Babylon being rebuilt and gaining control over kingdoms in the short time left before Christ's return seems out of touch with reality. If the harlot and kingdom of Babylon were the same as in the ancient times why would there be a Mystery about any of it? I still believe God had the two winged creatures take the container containing the spirit of Babylon and place it in a new place. Christianity was none existent in the Americas only paganism. The spirit took root and flourished here. When the pagan masonic peoples came over satan moved upon them to create a nation under god and establish once again a magnificent "city" that underhandedly despises all that is truly God. Waxing the other nations rich with her abundance. While putting the church to sleep by giving it the freedom to destroy itself from within. JESUS DID NOT DO POLITICS. HE CARED FOR PEOPLE

Aldebaran · Mar 19, 2021

Belteshazzar(Daniel) said:
The idea of ancient Babylon being rebuilt and gaining control over kingdoms in the short time left before Christ's return seems out of touch with reality. If the harlot and kingdom of Babylon were the same as in the ancient times why would there be a Mystery about any of it? I still believe God had the two winged creatures take the container containing the spirit of Babylon and place it in a new place. Christianity was none existent in the Americas only paganism. The spirit took root and flourished here. When the pagan masonic peoples came over satan moved upon them to create a nation under god and establish once again a magnificent "city" that underhandedly despises all that is truly God. Waxing the other nations rich with her abundance. While putting the church to sleep by giving it the freedom to destroy itself from within. JESUS DID NOT DO POLITICS. HE CARED FOR PEOPLE

How do you know how short of a time is left before Christ's return?

AlasBabylon · Mar 19, 2021

Belteshazzar(Daniel) said:
The idea of ancient Babylon being rebuilt and gaining control over kingdoms in the short time left before Christ's return seems out of touch with reality.

Yet that is exactly what has happened since WW2.

God decreed ancient Babylon rule the nations for 70 years [Jeremiah 25:11, Jeremiah 29:10, Daniel 9:2.]

It's been more than 70 years since the end of WW2 when the current globalist Babylonian New World Order arose.

Belteshazzar(Daniel) said:
If the harlot and kingdom of Babylon were the same as in the ancient times why would there be a Mystery about any of it?

It's a mystery to me why others can't see the current evil perverted antichrist globalist New World Order is end of the age Babylon!

.

d taylor · Mar 19, 2021

food4thought said:
I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael

Free Grace dispensationalist.
Bible right in Revelation 17 tells what city this is.

But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

Seven heads Rome was known as the city built on seven hills.

“Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Now Revelation also states in verse 17:18 the woman that you saw is that great city which reigns (not shall reign) over the kings of the earth. That can only be in Johns day, the city of Rome. Only Rome rules over the kings of the earth in Johns day.

And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Abraxos · Mar 19, 2021

AlasBabylon said:
.

The Vatican is NOT Babylon. As blasphemous as the current pope is, many other modern churches have become even more blasphemous. Most current secular and religious institutions are antichrist abominations.

Revelation's Babylon is the end of the age New World Order, the globalist evil empire that is analogous to ancient Babylon [Daniel 2's head of gold.] Revelation's Babylon is Daniel 2's feet of iron mixed with miry clay symbolically ruled by the 10 toes/10 kings who have given their power over to the evil antichrist beast and in the process have systematically undermined, gutted and weakened Babylon from within.

As in Daniel 2, next God's stone cut out without hands will crush the current evil globalist Babylonian NWO to create God's Kingdom on earth.

Eschatological Babylon being the New World Order isn't exactly accurate. She may seem to be the beast system, but that is only because she is closely associated with it, but the symbolism of the beast and the woman are portrayed as two separate entities, and later the Beast will hate the woman.

Furthermore, the woman is portrayed numerously as an adulteress, meaning that she is a married woman - in this context, we can assume that she is supposedly "married to God", yet is having fornications with the kings of the earth, i.e., a global union. Thus, if the woman is supposedly married to God, then this woman, in my opinion, is likely to be a corruption of the church.

Aldebaran · Mar 19, 2021

AlasBabylon said:
Yet that is exactly what has happened since WW2.

God decreed ancient Babylon rule the nations for 70 years [Jeremiah 25:11, Jeremiah 29:10, Daniel 9:2.]

It's been more than 70 years since the end of WW2 when the current globalist Babylonian New World Order arose.

It's a mystery to me why others can't see the current evil perverted antichrist globalist New World Order is end of the age Babylon!

.

Well, first of all, Daniel 9:2 doesn't say anything like what you imply it to say. It says: " in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years whereof the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the prophet, for the accomplishing of the desolations of Jerusalem, even seventy years."

What does that have to do with Babylon ruling the nations?

I can see in Jer 25:11: "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

However, the nations are not serving a global system, which you're saying is Babylon. Jerusalem is also not a desolation either.

AlasBabylon · Mar 19, 2021

Abraxos said:
Eschatological Babylon being the New World Order isn't exactly accurate. She may seem to be the beast system, but that is only because she is closely associated with it, but the symbolism of the beast and the woman are portrayed as two separate entities, and later the Beast will hate the woman.

Furthermore, the woman is portrayed numerously as an adulteress, meaning that she is a married woman - in this context, we can assume that she is supposedly "married to God", yet is having fornications with the kings of the earth, i.e., a global union. Thus, if the woman is supposedly married to God, then this woman, in my opinion, is likely to be a corruption of the church.

The great harlot in the OT was God's wife, Israel, when she was living in sinful rebellion.

God divorced the Northern Israel Kingdom for adultery. Then God used Assyria to destroy the Northern Israel Kingdom and scatter those 10 Israel tribes among the gentiles and they later became the wild olive branch grafted back on the olive tree in Christ [Olive is a Biblical symbol of Israel.] Their descendants in all FORMER nations of European Christendom are repeating that sinful rebellion today. The Southern Israel Kingdom of Judah also committed adultery with foreign false gods. But God didn't divorce her because God was destined to be incarnated in the tribe of Judah. But God used ancient Babylon [and its evil ally Edom] to severely punish the Southern Kingdom.

.

Aldebaran · Mar 19, 2021

AlasBabylon said:
The great harlot in the OT was God's wife, Israel, when she was living in sinful rebellion.

God divorced the Northern Israel Kingdom for adultery. Then God used Assyria to destroy the Northern Israel Kingdom and scatter those 10 Israel tribes among the gentiles and they later became the wild olive branch grafted back on the olive tree in Christ [Olive is a Biblical symbol of Israel.] Their descendants in all FORMER nations of European Christendom are repeating that sinful rebellion today. The Southern Israel Kingdom of Judah also committed adultery with foreign false gods. But God didn't divorce her because God was destined to be incarnated in the tribe of Judah. But God used ancient Babylon [and its evil ally Edom] to severely punish the Southern Kingdom.

.

I thought the Fig Tree was the biblical symbol for Israel.

Douggg · Mar 19, 2021

Aldebaran said:
I thought the Fig Tree was the biblical symbol for Israel.

Jerusalem is the fig tree. As Jesus and the disciples were entering the city that week he would be rejected and crucified, Jesus cursed a fig tree beside the road because it had no figs, it was not the season. It was symbolic that Jesus knew Jerusalem would reject him as their king, and that generation would produce no fruit.

1967 Jerusalem became in the hands of the Jews again. Given that a generation is 70 years from Psalms 90, 2037 is the way the math works out at the latest. Although there is one caveat that Psalms 90 also says a generation can be 80 years, if by strength.

AlasBabylon · Mar 19, 2021

Aldebaran said:
I thought the Fig Tree was the biblical symbol for Israel.

There are other symbols.

"Sheep" is also a symbol of Israel... like when Jesus said He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel... and His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

.

AlasBabylon · Mar 19, 2021

Douggg said:
Jerusalem is the fig tree. As Jesus and the disciples were entering the city that week he would be rejected and crucified, Jesus cursed a fig tree beside the road because it had no figs, it was not the season. It was symbolic that Jesus knew Jerusalem would reject him as their king, and that generation would produce no fruit.

1967 Jerusalem became in the hands of the Jews again. Given that a generation is 70 years from Psalms 90, 2037 is the way the math works out at the latest. Although there is one caveat that Psalms 90 also says a generation can be 80 years, if by strength.

As it was during the time of Christ, Jerusalem is in the hands of antichrist Edomites again !!

Third temple being build in Jerusalem right now

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Your thoughts on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17

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