The two step process of end times Eventism

Douggg said:

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel because of...

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

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That was the dream given to Joseph.

Mary is a direct descendant of the twelve tribes, based on Matthew chapter 1.

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BABerean2 said:

That was the dream given to Joseph.

Mary is a direct descendant of the twelve tribes, based on Matthew chapter 1.

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Long time no see. I was beginning to worry about you. Glad to see you back posting regardless that you and I don't always see eye to eye on everything.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Should one assume that the woman meant in verse 6 is not the same woman meant in verses 14-17? No one could possibly convincingly argue that the woman meant in verses 14-17, that this is speaking of one individual in particular rather than a group of individuals. One thing is for certain, Mary couldn't possibly fit the text in verses 14-17 since that would make nonsense out of those texts. Whatever those verses are referring to, there is nothing like that ever recorded about Mary anywhere in the Bible. Plus, verses 14-17 are obviously referring to a time post the ascension, and not prior to it instead.

DavidPT said:

Long time no see. I was beginning to worry about you. Glad to see you back posting regardless that you and I don't always see eye to eye on everything.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Should one assume that the woman meant in verse 6 is not the same woman meant in verses 14-17? No one could possibly convincingly argue that the woman meant in verses 14-17, that this is speaking of one individual in particular rather than a group of individuals. One thing is for certain, Mary couldn't possibly fit the text in verses 14-17 since that would make nonsense out of those texts. Whatever those verses are referring to, there is nothing like that ever recorded about Mary anywhere in the Bible. Plus, verses 14-17 are obviously referring to a time post the ascension, and not prior to it instead.

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This passage is about the seed of the woman first promised in Genesis 3:15.

Is it about the women on the boat with Noah?

Is is about the women who were the descendants of Jacob, in Joseph's dream?

Is it about Mary?

The answer is... "Yes.".

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Douggg said:

To understand the end times, it is two step process.

step 1. Go through the bible and find all of the time expressions found associated with the end times, time of the end. And the events associated with each. Assemble those as being in either the first half of the 7 years, or second half of the seven years.

The time expressions are found in two books of the bible. Daniel and Revelation.

step 2. Determine the functional roles the arch-villain of the end times goes through. And then integrate him into the timeline developed from step one.

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You left out the most important step.

Consult NT teaching for the parameters and the plumb line of your interpretation of unfulfilled prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8--"dark sayings").

If one's interpretation is not in agreement with the authoritative teaching of the NT, an authority which no personal interpretation of unfulfilled prophecy enjoys, then one's interpretation is incorrect.

grafted branch said:

Would you say that every 3.5 year period in Revelation and Daniel must fit into either the first half or second half of the final seven year period? Or is it possible that some of the 3.5 year periods happen during some of the other 7 year periods?

For instance in Revelation 12:6 the woman fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days. Couldn’t this be Mary’s flight into Egypt in Matthew 2:13-15?

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Yes, IN CONTEXT every mention of a 3 1/2 year period of time is related to the final 70th week of time.

Douggg said:

They will have become Christians, turning to Jesus, in the middle of the seven years, after the episode of thinking the Antichrist person is the messiah (the one coming in his own name) - for about three years.

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Read the recent book "The 70th Week of Daniel 9 DECODED" by David Wilcoxson to see how the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled during the first century.

In Romans 1:16 the Apostle Paul said the Gospel went "first" to the Jews. When was this period of time, and how long did it last?
The answer is found in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts 10:36-38, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Daniel 9: with David Wilcoxson - YouTube


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DavidPT said:

Should one assume that the woman meant in verse 6 is not the same woman meant in verses 14-17? No one could possibly convincingly argue that the woman meant in verses 14-17, that this is speaking of one individual in particular rather than a group of individuals. One thing is for certain, Mary couldn't possibly fit the text in verses 14-17 since that would make nonsense out of those texts. Whatever those verses are referring to, there is nothing like that ever recorded about Mary anywhere in the Bible. Plus, verses 14-17 are obviously referring to a time post the ascension, and not prior to it instead.

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I know you have a different view than I do, but I would like to get your opinion on the chronological order of Revelation 12.


These verses would seem to be fairly straight forward and in chronological order.


Here it states the dragon persecuted the woman after he was cast to the earth and then the woman flees. So here something is out of chronological order because verses 5-9 have the woman fleeing and then the dragon is cast out; although there is also the possibility that everything is in chronological order and there are 2 separate women that flee into the wilderness.


Now look at this verse …


The word now <737> means just now or this day (hour); so here is a reference to a time that at the latest occurred in Matthew 28:18 but could be argued that it happened sooner.


Do you see just one woman fleeing and the verse not being in chronological order or do you view this some other way?

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:1-5 historic which identifies the woman as Israel.

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I don’t necessarily agree here but for sake of argument let’s say this is Israel.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:6 future, the first half of the 7 years. Israel, thinking the Antichrist is the messiah, but the two witnesses testifying to them, feeding them the word of God that he is not and will betray them.

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Again I don’t agree but let’s assume you are correct.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:7-9 is after the Antichrist betrays them, is killed, comes back to life, and as the beast kills the two witnesses. Three and half days later, into the second half of the 7 years, the two witnesses come back to life ascend to heaven.

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So here is where there could be a problem. Revelation 12:9 says the dragon and his angels are cast out with him. If you are correct then the Antichrist is not an angel of the dragon because you state verse 9 happens after the Antichrist is on earth. So unless Satan or his angels are omnipresent the Antichrist only has an Adamic nature.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10-11 is that the Jews, Israel, after their episode of having believed that the Antichrist is the messiah, turn to Jesus and embrace the gospel of salvation.

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Ok, so this would be the first time people see salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ? I defiantly disagree here because these conditions can be found to have already occurred in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:12 them in (the third) heaven, the 2/3 of the angels, and the living beasts, the raptured and resurrected saints, rejoice that things are coming to a close. Satan and his angels on the other hand will be angry that their time is short.

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Ok

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:13-17 Satan persecutes the Jews, who do not heed Jesus's words in Matthew 24:15-31 to flee into the mountains right away, when they see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (the temple mount).

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This is the first act of Satan, recorded in Revelation 12, that he does after being cast down to the earth and this is also where the chronology of events is out of sequence. You state that Satan persecutes the Jews but you left out verse 14 where the woman flees into the wilderness. Aren’t these the same Jews who flee in verse 6?

Douggg said:

The revealed man of sin will be killed for his claim, but God brings him back to life

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Can you show the above in scripture?

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Douggg said:

In verse 6, Israel is metaphorically in a wilderness, because for most of the 1260 days the Jews will think the Antichrist is their messiah - for around 3 yrs.

Then the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God. The Jews reject him at that point. Shocked and in disarray, confused.

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I don't agree with what you are proposing here, but let's assume that what you are proposing is supposed to be correct, regardless. The first thing to note, what you are proposing, something like that can only be meaning after the war in heaven, not prior to it. The reason I mention this, the fact you are applying these things to verse 6, verse 6 is meaning before the war in heaven, not after the war in heaven.

grafted branch said:

I know you have a different view than I do, but I would like to get your opinion on the chronological order of Revelation 12.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. 7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

These verses would seem to be fairly straight forward and in chronological order.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child]. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.​

Here it states the dragon persecuted the woman after he was cast to the earth and then the woman flees. So here something is out of chronological order because verses 5-9 have the woman fleeing and then the dragon is cast out; although there is also the possibility that everything is in chronological order and there are 2 separate women that flee into the wilderness.


Now look at this verse …

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.​

The word now <737> means just now or this day (hour); so here is a reference to a time that at the latest occurred in Matthew 28:18 but could be argued that it happened sooner.


Do you see just one woman fleeing and the verse not being in chronological order or do you view this some other way?

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As to Revelation 12 in general, to this day I have never fully made up my mind about some of the events recorded. Take this war in heaven, for instance. There are some that see that meaning sometime in the beginning of creation. There are others that see it meaning when the ascension occurred. And there are others that see it as future still. I only see the last two as possibilities, and that I tend to favor it meaning at the ascension as opposed to it being future still.

If the war in heaven happened during the ascension, and that verse 6 is meaning before the war in heaven, that could indicate that what you initially proposed about Mary and Joseph fleeing, that this is at least a possibility. Let's say that it is a possible interpretation. What about verse 1, then? That is the woman that flees in verse 6. In what way would verse 1 be describing Mary?

I think some have also suggested that verse 6 involves fleeing to the mountains during the events pertaining to 70 AD. The problem with that proposal, assuming verse 6 is meaning prior to the war in heaven, then assuming the war in heaven happened during the ascension, that proposal won't work since it would be a contradiction. OTOH, if this war in heaven is still future, the proposal concerning fleeing into the mountains during 70 AD could still work since this would still place verse 6 prior to the war in heaven, and that it would place it after the war in heaven if that war occurred during the ascension, thus the latter would be a contradiction.

To me then, this war in heaven seems to show that this same woman flees twice into the wilderness, before and after this war.

Unfortunately, all of this raises more questions than answers, since this doesn't exactly adequately answer what you inquired about. Though there may be some things I tend to be somewhat dogmatic about at times, some of Revelation 12 would not be one of them.

Douggg said:

oops, sorry David, I thought you were addressing me... my bad.

Anyway...

David, verse 6 is before the war in the (second) heaven.

Let's backtrack

... Jesus returns at the end of the 2520 days.

1335 days before then, the abomination of desolation will be set up (on day 1185, 75 days before the 1260 days close).

Since the abomination of desolation is the image of the beast - the person has to become the beast before day 1185.

Before the person becomes the beast, he has to reveal that he is the man of sin.

The person reveals that he is the man of sin by going into the temple sitting claiming to be God.

The person will be thought to be the messiah by Israel, before he reveals that he is the man of sin. The role of being the messiah (thought to be) is him as the Antichrist,
king of Israel, coming in his own name.

As the Antichrist, he begins the 7 years, by confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, via a big speech from the temple mount, having the law read to the nation. (This comes from a requirement Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13).

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I know that sounds somewhat complex. But we don't have enough information to pinpoint the day when the person (goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God) .

What we do have is what other events take place after that event. Of him being killed, brought back to life, becoming the beast. And then the image of the beast made placed on the temple mount aod ... which, it is not until that aod factor do we have something to put on our timeline - the 1335 days from Daniel 12:11-12.

day 1...................................day 1185 (aod)...................day 1260

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I was addressing you, and one main reason I disagreed with your proposal is because verse 6 is meaning before the war in heaven, and that a proposal like yours could only work if verse 6 was meaning after the war in heaven. Keep in mind, until the war in heaven satan still has access to heaven in some sense or another. It would be after he is kicked out into the earth that a proposal like your's could possibly work.

Douggg said:

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, it is about the revealed man of sin's claim to have achieved God-hood.

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

God has him killed by strangers sending his soul into the pit.

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

In Isaiah 14, the person's soul is in hell. Mocked, but doesn't remain there long...

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

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Prophecy Against the Prince of Tyre

Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

A Lament over the King of Tyre

Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

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Israel's Remnant Taunts Babylon

Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
Isa 14:6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
Isa 14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.


How can you take a few verses out of two completely different passages and put them together in this way, and then claim it is proof God resurrects the antichrist from the dead?


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Douggg said:

In verse 6, Israel is metaphorically in a wilderness, because for most of the 1260 days the Jews will think the Antichrist is their messiah - for around 3 yrs.

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Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

If your statement is true then the metaphorical wilderness was prepared for the Jews by God and “they” will feed the Jews for 1260 days.

Wilderness <2048> Usage: as an adj: deserted, desolate, waste; hence: the desert, to the east and south of Palestine; of a person: deserted, abandoned, desolate.

From Romans 11:1 we know that God has not cast away his people.

So who will be feeding the Jews?

Will they be in the wilderness for exactly 1260 days or only for around 3 years?