No women preachers? An exegetical case from 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2

Abraxos · Mar 6, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Hello!

1 Corinthians 14
It seems the point of 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 is that if someone speaks (2980 laleo) in tongues, they shouldn't address an assembly that doesn't know the language unless there's one to interpret. Instead, they should "keep silent" (4601 sigao) in church. Likewise, the point of 1 Corinthians 14:29-30 is that two or three prophets should speak (2980 laleo), but if something is revealed to someone else, the first speaker should not address the assembly but should "keep silent" (4601 sigao) so that this new speaker can do so instead.

In the first two cases, the subjects addressed (tongue-speakers and prophets) could speak in church but had to "keep silent" under certain circumstances. However, when Paul gets to the third subject, the women, there are no qualifiers given. Instead, he writes in 1 Corinthians 14:34, "Let your women keep silent [4601 sigao] in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak [2980 laleo]; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." Paul then goes on to add in 1 Corinthians 15:35: "And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak [2980 laleo] in church."

Naturally, wouldn't "speak" (2980 laleo) and "keep silent" (4601 sigao) mean the same in verses 34-35 that the terms mean elsewhere in the chapter, i.e., addressing the assembly versus not addressing the assembly, respectively? If so, Paul would seem to rule out women preachers here, as they would not be permitted to address the church assembly. (Note: There's a specific context to this passage, "in church" [vv. 26, 28, 34-35, etc.], so this certainly can't forbid women from teaching in other contexts, such as when Priscilla and her husband Aquila taught Apollos [Acts of the Apostles 18:26].)

In regards to 1 Cor. 14:34-35, there are several Greek theologians who have come to designate vs. 34-35 as an interpolation. That means that they are a quote from someone else's words, and if you ask me, this suggestion of subordination read in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 isn't the words of Paul, but it is a quote from a letter received from the Corinthian church. It's likely verses 34-35 came from the Talmudic law, and not of Paul since he promoted women in ministry, honoured and acknowledged their service in the Lord. It is likely though that there were Jewish Christians who still thought that way, hence Paul's rebuke in vs. 36.
The legalistic connotation of the "Law" stated in verse 34, "It is not permitted... as also saith the law," is nowhere to be found in the OT. It was however a common practice in Jewish synagogues where women were not allowed to speak.

Mishnah sotah 3.4; B sotah 20a:
"Out of respect to the congregation, a woman should not herself read in the law. It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men. The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness."

J. Lee Grady said this about it:
"It should be noted that the Jewish Talmud is a collection of comments by rabbis who disagree, and the statement here about the "obscenity" of teaching women the law of God is challenged. However, many scholars of early Jewish thought believe the quote here represents the prevalent opinion of rabbis in the first century. Women were not allowed to study the Torah or to become disciples of rabbis."

So, the Law being referred to is most likely the Jewish Oral Law, the same one Jesus spoke against with his Sermon on the Mount on the contrasts of their "law" adjacent to the written word of Scripture. In other words, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 has been terribly mistranslated.

Some handy references:
God's Word To Women by Katharine C. Bushnell
Let Women Speak In Church by David W. Odell-Scott
Did Paul Put Down Women In 1 Cor 14:34-36? by N.M. Flanagan

Strong in Him · Mar 7, 2021

Kilk1 said:
1 Corinthians 14
It seems the point of 1 Corinthians 14:27-28

If you want an exegetical study of 1 Corinthians 14 you have to start at least at the beginning of the chapter and not with a few verses from the end in fact, preferably start at chapter 11.

Paul has been addressing the fact that there were divisions in the Corinthian church - this is actually first seen in chapter 3.
In chapter 11 he addresses something else that was causing division; their behaviour at the Lord's supper. He says that they should not all eat and drink independently so that some get drunk and others go hungry, but should respect one another. In chapter 12 he takes this further - they are all the body of Christ. Each may have a different role, or different gifts, but they all need one another. Jesus is the head, and it is his Spirit who gives gifts to each. Chapter 13 is the famous chapter on love; love which is patient, kind, not boastful or proud and without which their service and worship are pointless. Chapter 14 seems to be a continuation of the last verses of chapter 12. Some Corinthians had the gift of tongues and it seems they were rather proud of having these dramatic gifts - so much so that they were boasting about having the gift and misusing it in worship - not letting anyone else speak or speaking over the top of them. Paul tells them that they need to have order in worship - no more than 2 or 3 people speaking in tongues and they must wait for an interpretation to be given, Similarly with prophesies - only 2 or 3 to be given and if someone sitting down receives a word, the speaker must stop and let them speak.
All this because God is the head of the church, the giver of the gifts and is a God of order.

This is the background against which the passage is written. And having said all this, Paul then turns his attention to women who it seems were talking in the services. Note, in none of the previous chapters has he said that women will not be given gifts of prophesy or teaching, or forbidden from speaking in tongues.
We know that some of them were talking in the services because Paul says "if they want to enquire about something they should ask their husbands at home", 1 Corinthians 14:35. Why would he have needed to say that unless women were calling out and/or asking questions of the nearest available man? Order, remember? The women had husbands and they were to be submissive and ask them the answer to their questions at home, privately. Such behaviour does indeed undermine the authority of the person preaching/teaching.

He concludes that they should all be eager to prophesy - indeed, in chapter 11 he has already said that women need to prophesy with their heads covered. During his travels, Paul stayed with Philip who had 4 daughters, all of whom prophesied. He is not against women doing this, and to prophesy, you need to speak.

Kilk1 said:
In the first two cases, the subjects addressed (tongue-speakers and prophets) could speak in church but had to "keep silent" under certain circumstances. However, when Paul gets to the third subject, the women, there are no qualifiers given. Instead, he writes in 1 Corinthians 14:34, "Let your women keep silent [4601 sigao] in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak [2980 laleo]; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

What law?
I'm not aware of an OT law which says that women couldn't speak in worship - but anyway, Paul spends time in his letters explaining that his readers are not under the law.

Kilk1 said:
Naturally, wouldn't "speak" (2980 laleo) and "keep silent" (4601 sigao) mean the same in verses 34-35 that the terms mean elsewhere in the chapter, i.e., addressing the assembly versus not addressing the assembly, respectively? If so, Paul would seem to rule out women preachers here, as they would not be permitted to address the church assembly.

Yes, it would rule out women preachers - it would also rule out women prophesying, reading the Scriptures, giving testimony to God's goodness, praying or saying "Amen" to prayers and even singing.
In other words, women either stay totally silent, play no part in worship and are disobeying if they worship God, or those verses mean something else.
In debates on this subject I've seen people who want it both ways - "women can't preach because they have to remain silent; oh but they can worship God" (which involves speaking.)

Kilk1 said:
(Note: There's a specific context to this passage, "in church" [vv. 26, 28, 34-35, etc.], so this certainly can't forbid women from teaching in other contexts, such as when Priscilla and her husband Aquila taught Apollos [Acts of the Apostles 18:26].)

WE are the church.
We don't have to go into a church building to be and do church; if a group of Christians are meeting in a coffee shop/in school/on the beach to fellowship and study Scripture, they are the church in that place. There are large Christian events that take place in halls or tents and dozens of beach missions each year they don't worship God in a huge marquee but only become church when they get back to their buildings. Christians on beach missions are church and are taking church out to people. They don't become church when they go into a certain building - God is with them on the beach just as much as he is when they are sitting in pews and looking at stained glass windows.

(Will look at 1 Tim tomorrow, if time; I need sleep.)

Strong in Him · Mar 7, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
The Bible does NOT allow for women to preach/pastor/teach in the Church, when there are men present. They can teach in a womans meeting, or children. Nether can the hold the position of pastor/elder. the Bible has never changed on this, even though there are "churches" who do their own thing against the Teaching of the Bible, and have women in this positions. They are most certainly NOT blessed by the Lord in this.

Nonsense.
I've been blessed, and had the privilege, of preaching the Gospel for nearly 14 years - 17 if you count my years in training.
I had M.E when I started preaching, and it was certainly the Lord who gave me the strength, not to mention the inspiration, to do this. There is no way I could, or would, have done it without him.

And incidentally, it was men who suggested this to me, prayed with me, trained me and even commissioned me.

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 7, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Nonsense.
I've been blessed, and had the privilege, of preaching the Gospel for nearly 14 years - 17 if you count my years in training.
I had M.E when I started preaching, and it was certainly the Lord who gave me the strength, not to mention the inspiration, to do this. There is no way I could, or would, have done it without him.

And incidentally, it was men who suggested this to me, prayed with me, trained me and even commissioned me.

Then your so called preaching is without the Holy Spirit because the Lord cannot deny his Word

Strong in Him · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
Then your so called preaching is without the Holy Spirit because the Lord cannot deny his Word

If it was without the Holy Spirit, it would be totally in my own strength, would not have lasted this long, or even begun, and would not have blessed, or ministered to anybody.

No, the Lord cannot deny his word. And as he is calling women to preach and even to be ordained, it suggests that there is nothing in his word that is against that - or he would be contradicting himself.

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
If it was without the Holy Spirit, it would be totally in my own strength, would not have lasted this long, or even begun, and would not have blessed, or ministered to anybody.

No, the Lord cannot deny his word. And as he is calling women to preach and even to be ordained, it suggests that there is nothing in his word that is against that - or he would be contradicting himself.

the great American Bible teacher, A W Tozer once said, that if the Holy Spirit were to withdraw Himself from the Church completely, over 80% will continue as though nothing had happened! Women "preachers" and "pastors" are 100% against the Holy Bible, which is the unchangable Word of Almighty God, and God will not allow or bless something that He Himself has clearly forbidden. Regardless of the ways of this wicked and evil world, and the many "churches" that have followed their, and not the Bible's ways, God's Word will NEVER change! You can "last" a whole lifetime, as do the Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others, this is NOT any evidence that the Lord is with you on this. God's Word through Paul to Timothy, remains unchanged:

"likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Timothy 2)

May the Lord the Holy Spirit show you the Truth from His Holy Word!

Strong in Him · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
the great American Bible teacher, A W Tozer once said, that if the Holy Spirit were to withdraw Himself from the Church completely, over 80% will continue as though nothing had happened!

That might be so - but inspired preaching of God's word is definitely in the 20% of things that wouldn't continue.

In-Christ-Alone said:
Women "preachers" and "pastors" are 100% against the Holy Bible, which is the unchangable Word of Almighty God, and God will not allow or bless something that He Himself has clearly forbidden.

Well you'd better ask God why he is calling women to preach his word when he has "forbidden" it.
Oh, wait, I know - he hasn't, and we're all disobedient, deluded feminists. :sigh:

In-Christ-Alone said:
Regardless of the ways of this wicked and evil world, and the many "churches" that have followed their, and not the Bible's ways, God's Word will NEVER change!

It seems your interpretation of God's word will never change.

In-Christ-Alone said:
You can "last" a whole lifetime, as do the Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others, this is NOT any evidence that the Lord is with you on this.

I KNOW the Lord is with me on this, since it was he who called me - other preachers and Ministers know this too.

In-Christ-Alone said:
God's Word through Paul to Timothy, remains unchanged:

"likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. 11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1 Timothy 2)

His word is unchanged - the meaning is debateable.
The above few verses, taken out of context, say nothing about women not being allowed to proclaim the Gospel.

Tell me, who was the first witness to the resurrection? Who was it who gave this Good News to the men who were hiding in fear?
What did the Samaritan woman at the well do after she had found the Messiah? How many men do you think believed because of her actions and testimony?
Did you know that there are female prophets in the OT - that on one occasion the male priests chose to go to a woman when they wanted a word from the Lord, rather than to one of the male prophets? Did you know that the king listened to this word, tore down the altars of false gods and there was a revival in the land? 2 Kings 22:14-20.
Did you know that one of the OT female prophets was also judge over all Israel and not only told men of God's word but sorted out their problems/disputes too? Judges 4:4-5.

So if God was against women speaking for him, telling others his word, teaching, and even rebuking, men; why did he choose some women to do just that?

In Jesus' time, women were nothing; definitely 2nd class citizens, not allowed to testify in court etc - yet Jesus called, taught, healed many and restored women as people who have been created in God's image.
Today, certain sections of the church are repressing women once again - apparently we will never be given certain gifts of the Spirit and the Lord will certainly not call us to proclaim his word. Yet these same people proclaim the message "love as Jesus loved us."

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
That might be so - but inspired preaching of God's word is definitely in the 20% of things that wouldn't continue.

Well you'd better ask God why he is calling women to preach his word when he has "forbidden" it.
Oh, wait, I know - he hasn't, and we're all disobedient, deluded feminists.

It seems your interpretation of God's word will never change.

I KNOW the Lord is with me on this, since it was he who called me - other preachers and Ministers know this too.

His word is unchanged - the meaning is debateable.
The above few verses, taken out of context, say nothing about women not being allowed to proclaim the Gospel.

Tell me, who was the first witness to the resurrection? Who was it who gave this Good News to the men who were hiding in fear?
What did the Samaritan woman at the well do after she had found the Messiah? How many men do you think believed because of her actions and testimony?
Did you know that there are female prophets in the OT - that on one occasion the male priests chose to go to a woman when they wanted a word from the Lord, rather than to one of the male prophets? Did you know that the king listened to this word, tore down the altars of false gods and there was a revival in the land? 2 Kings 22:14-20.
Did you know that one of the OT female prophets was also judge over all Israel and not only told men of God's word but sorted out their problems/disputes too? Judges 4:4-5.

So if God was against women speaking for him, telling others his word, teaching, and even rebuking, men; why did he choose some women to do just that?

In Jesus' time, women were nothing; definitely 2nd class citizens, not allowed to testify in court etc - yet Jesus called, taught, healed many and restored women as people who have been created in God's image.
Today, certain sections of the church are repressing women once again - apparently we will never be given certain gifts of the Spirit and the Lord will certainly not call us to proclaim his word. Yet these same people proclaim the message "love as Jesus loved us."

You left out some very important verses in your arguments

1. "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:13-14)
2 "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God...For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man" (1 Corinthians 11:3, 7-8)
2. "For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (1 Peter 3:5-7)

All of this is 100% true today as it was when written by God the Holy Spirit. Clearly showing the "subordination" of the female race to the male. Man, the Bible says alone is created in "the image and glory of God"; whereas "woman is the glory of man". It is that the "glory" of God "reflects" on the male, and "deflects" from the male on the female. Women, we are also told, were created "for the man", and his "helper" (Genesis 2:18). As I have said, regardless of modern, anti Bible "standards" in this evil world, THE Word of God, Which is unchanging, stands firm!

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
If it was without the Holy Spirit, it would be totally in my own strength, would not have lasted this long, or even begun, and would not have blessed, or ministered to anybody.

It's a weak argument to say that I did something that was unauthorized (by God, in this case) but I was good at carrying out the duties of the position just the same. Reminds me of that movie "Catch Me If You Can."

Put another way, the "argument" in this particular discussion does not center on whether women can function in the position of pastor, how effective they can preaching, etc., or even if there are not churches which call and install women as pastors.

Rather, it's whether or not having women pastors is in accord with Scripture and whether or not God does choose different types of people for different roles in His church just as he chose different and often unlikely people for certain roles in history.

atpollard · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
No, the Lord cannot deny his word. And as he is calling women to preach and even to be ordained, it suggests that there is nothing in his word that is against that - or he would be contradicting himself.

Where does God call ANYONE to be "ordained" (man or woman)?
And if you fond an a scriptural "ordination" (defining it for me), then are there scriptural examples of both men and women being ordained?

I am simply attempting to separate what is verifiable by scripture from what is personal opinion. You made a good argument for the flow of 1 Corinthians 11-14, so I wondered if you had equally strong support for your emphatic statement on being called to be ordained. I personally question whether the modern clergy/laity division is really supported by scripture. It really seems like a grafting of the OT "priesthood" back onto the new thing that Christ was doing.

atpollard · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
If you want an exegetical study of 1 Corinthians 14 you have to start at least at the beginning of the chapter and not with a few verses from the end in fact, preferably start at chapter 11.

Paul has been addressing the fact that there were divisions in the Corinthian church - this is actually first seen in chapter 3.
In chapter 11 he addresses something else that was causing division; their behaviour at the Lord's supper. He says that they should not all eat and drink independently so that some get drunk and others go hungry, but should respect one another. In chapter 12 he takes this further - they are all the body of Christ. Each may have a different role, or different gifts, but they all need one another. Jesus is the head, and it is his Spirit who gives gifts to each. Chapter 13 is the famous chapter on love; love which is patient, kind, not boastful or proud and without which their service and worship are pointless. Chapter 14 seems to be a continuation of the last verses of chapter 12. Some Corinthians had the gift of tongues and it seems they were rather proud of having these dramatic gifts - so much so that they were boasting about having the gift and misusing it in worship - not letting anyone else speak or speaking over the top of them. Paul tells them that they need to have order in worship - no more than 2 or 3 people speaking in tongues and they must wait for an interpretation to be given, Similarly with prophesies - only 2 or 3 to be given and if someone sitting down receives a word, the speaker must stop and let them speak.
All this because God is the head of the church, the giver of the gifts and is a God of order.

This is the background against which the passage is written. And having said all this, Paul then turns his attention to women who it seems were talking in the services. Note, in none of the previous chapters has he said that women will not be given gifts of prophesy or teaching, or forbidden from speaking in tongues.
We know that some of them were talking in the services because Paul says "if they want to enquire about something they should ask their husbands at home", 1 Corinthians 14:35. Why would he have needed to say that unless women were calling out and/or asking questions of the nearest available man? Order, remember? The women had husbands and they were to be submissive and ask them the answer to their questions at home, privately. Such behaviour does indeed undermine the authority of the person preaching/teaching.

He concludes that they should all be eager to prophesy - indeed, in chapter 11 he has already said that women need to prophesy with their heads covered. During his travels, Paul stayed with Philip who had 4 daughters, all of whom prophesied. He is not against women doing this, and to prophesy, you need to speak.

This was a good exegesis of the flow of the book.

Strong in Him said:
What law?
I'm not aware of an OT law which says that women couldn't speak in worship - but anyway, Paul spends time in his letters explaining that his readers are not under the law.

This, however, was a rather strange response. Kilk1 had directly quoted Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:34 ("Let your women keep silent [4601 sigao] in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak [2980 laleo]; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.") Therefore, your challenge about the OT Law appears to be directed at the inspired word of Paul rather than any conclusion of Kilk1. Perhaps I simply missed your point.

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
Where does God call ANYONE to be "ordained" (man or woman)?

The New Testament lists and refers often to the various pastoral positions that existed in the church (and still exist in the ones that can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era). And it gives the qualifications for holding these.

So you are left to say either that they were never put into effect OR that Scripture and history are both wrong.

atpollard · Mar 8, 2021

Albion said:
The New Testament lists and refers often to the various pastoral positions that existed in the church (and still exist in the ones that can trace their origins back to the Apostolic era). And it gives the qualifications for holding these.

So you are left to say either that they were never put into effect OR that Scripture and history are both wrong.

[Matthew 23:1-12 NASB95]
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say [things] and do not do [them.] 4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with [so much as] a finger.
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels [of their garments.] 6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call [anyone] on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, [that is,] Christ. 11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Which group do the modern "ordained" resemble in this scene?

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
[Matthew 23:1-12 NASB95]
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say [things] and do not do [them.] 4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with [so much as] a finger.
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels [of their garments.] 6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call [anyone] on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, [that is,] Christ. 11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Which group do the modern "ordained" resemble in this scene?

Look up the verses that deal with congregational officers/leaders/ministers and get back to me. That's the topic.

HIM · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
[Matthew 23:1-12 NASB95]
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say [things] and do not do [them.] 4 "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with [so much as] a finger.
5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels [of their garments.] 6 "They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call [anyone] on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, [that is,] Christ. 11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Which group do the modern "ordained" resemble in this scene?

Good post. I’m afraid it will be lost on many though

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

HIM said:
Good post. I’m afraid it will be lost on many though

It deserves to be lost because it doesn't address the issue. We are here talking about whether or not women as pastors is God's plan. Our friend's post is entirely about wrongful ways that that people who are in authority in the churches can behave. They're two different subjects and the poster obviously has a personal interest in the second of these.

atpollard · Mar 8, 2021

Albion said:
Look up the verses that deal with congregational officers/leaders/ministers and get back to me. That's the topic.

Since you had no real answer to the question that was not even directed to you ... I will pass on "getting back to you.

I think that Jesus' command to let no one call you "Teacher" or "Father" or "Leader" because we are all brothers IS VERY RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC of ordination.

So, enjoy your "broad phylacteries", "long tassels", "place of honor at banquets", "chief seats" in the churches, "respectful greetings in the market places" and "being called by your Anglican titles of Ordination by men".

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
Since you had no real answer to the question that was not even directed to you ... I will pass on "getting back to you.

Sorry. Sometimes I fall into thinking that these forums are not private discussions.

Maybe that's because there is a provision here for that if a private exchange is wanted. It's called "Conversations."

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
I think that Jesus' command to let no one call you "Teacher" or "Father" or "Leader" because we are all brothers IS VERY RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC of ordination.

No, that's about what we ought to call pastors and why or why not. It's not about who gets to be one.

Kilk1 · Mar 8, 2021

Gregorikos said:
The first hole in the 1 Corinthians passage is that Paul clearly allowed women to speak in church in the very same letter. (1 Corinthians 11:5)

The second hole is that the first two groups weren't being categorically forbidden to speak in church. Both groups were encouraged to use their gifts in church if exercised appropriately. If the first two groups were permitted to speak in church at the appropriate time, why wouldn't the third? All three groups were told to "be quiet" using exactly the same verb. Paul is addressing church order, (14:40), and we shouldn't read any more to it than that, especially in light of 11:5.

The 1 Timothy 2 passage has another context that you haven't considered, and that is that the man and the woman in 2:11-15 are husband and wife, and the context therefore has nothing to do with addressing the church service.

The Common English Bible translates that passage this way:

A wife should learn quietly with complete submission. I don’t allow a wife to teach or to control her husband. Instead, she should be a quiet listener. Adam was formed first, and then Eve. Adam wasn’t deceived, but rather his wife became the one who stepped over the line because she was completely deceived. But a wife will be brought safely through childbirth, if they both continue in faith, love, and holiness, together with self-control. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 (CEB)

This translation is well supported historically by a number of sources.

The CEB Study Bible elaborates on their translation of the passage:

Although Paul's instructions could refer to women's roles in a church service, the language of 1 Timothy 2:11-15 fits specific practices in the home much better. The Greek term gynë (used throughout this section) could simply refer to "a woman" but it's often used more specifically to refer to "a woman who is married"- that is, "a wife.' The best translation is indicated by the context, usually by the mention of a man, her husband (in Paul, see 1 Cor 5:1;7:2,3, 4, 10, 11, 12,14,16,33; 9:5; Eph 5:23, 28, 31, 33). The context in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 indicates that Paul is referring to "a wife" (and husband). First, Paul's language refers to an individual woman (singular) and an individual man. In the Greco-Roman world, such language wouldn't be appropriate in references to persons outside of close family members. Second, this text involves specific directions regarding the instruction of a woman in the faith, which is the responsibility of her husband in the home (see 1 Cor 14:35). Third, Paul's instruction is supported by a reference to the classic passage concerning marriage, Genesis 2:18-24. Fourth, this text ends with a focus on childbirth, which is clearly a domestic issue. Finally, the letter as a whole indicates that false teaching among women was being discussed in the day-to-day activities of the home. Through private storytelling, myths, genealogies, gossip, and slander, false teaching was spreading from house to house (1 Tim 3:11;4:7; 5:13 cf. 1 Tim 1:4). In part, this false teaching attacked marriage and marital relations (1 Tim 4:3; 5:14). Moreover, 2 Timothy 3:6-7 indicates that men who were false teachers in Ephesus were targeting women in their homes. In contrast, women aren’t singled out for violations in public teaching in either 1 Timothy or 2 Timothy.
If instructions for men to "pray everywhere in 1 Timothy 2:8 shouldn't be limited to public worship services, and if the instructions concerning women's dress wouldn't have been limited to worship services, then Paul's instructions in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 would be best read as the apostle's attempt to deal with false teaching that was being spread (more privately) among women from home to home. As in Corinth (1 Cor 14:35), it was necessary for wives to receive instruction about the Christian faith in the home in order to solve these problems. (1 Corinthians 2:11-15 CEB Study Bible)

That makes a lot of sense to me. I don't find your understanding of the two passages to be compelling, and certainly not enough to limit the ministry of half of the Lord's church.

Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 might be viable, so I'll have to think more about it. As for 1 Corinthians 11:5, you said "that Paul clearly allowed women to speak in church" here. It does clearly allow women to speak, but it's not as clear that this was "in church," as I don't see that phrase in the text. It seems that 1 Corinthians 11:17-18 is when Paul begins discussing the church, which is after verse 5. At the very least, 11:5 is not as clear as 14:34-35, where the context is explicitly said to be "in church."

In 1 Corinthians 14, you pointed out how the first two groups (i.e., tongue-speakers and prophets) were permitted to speak. But how do we know this? Because Paul explicitly tells them when they can "speak" (1 Corinthians 14:27, 29) and when they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:28, 30). Using the same "speak/keep silent" terminology in verses 34-35, he tells women--this time without qualifiers--to "keep silent" and says it's shameful for women to "speak in church."

To put the passage in a nutshell: 1] Tongue-speakers can "speak" in church, but if there's no interpreter, they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). 2] Prophets can "speak" in church, but if something's revealed to one who sits by, the first should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:29-30). 3] It's shameful for women to "speak" in church, and they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). See how the first two groups are given qualified restrictions, while the third has an unqualified prohibition?

No women preachers? An exegetical case from 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2

Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddat meliorem.

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