Jesus could do no deed of power there

public hermit · Mar 8, 2021

Jofes said:
I am pointing out that Jesus was led by the faith of individuals and did not seek out anyone to heal.
We find the exact situation in Elijah's time. He could do very little because of their lack of faith in God.

Okay, that makes sense. So, one must have faith to be healed. What about the fellow that was let down through the roof? Wasn't he healed on the basis of his friend's faith, or no?

Jofes said:
Also there is no faith in being amazed, I see it every day, no different than magic.

Okay, but in this case it was Jesus who was amazed. Apparently, he was surprised they didn't have more faith.

Jofes · Mar 8, 2021

Hermit
Your thread is timely and the issues you raised are so needed in out world today. The situation is dire and there is no answer (relief) in our medical, government and social system. Where did the optimism go? I see a direct correlation between faith in a failing human system and lack of faith in God. There is still hope though. Compassion which is Jesus, is in every Holy Spirit filled Christian. Compassion heals, opens blind eyes, and sets the captive free.

Jofes · Mar 8, 2021

public hermit said:
Okay, that makes sense. So, one must have faith to be healed. What about the fellow that was let down through the roof? Wasn't he healed on the basis of his friend's faith, or no?

Okay, but in this case it was Jesus who was amazed. Apparently, he was surprised they didn't have more faith.

When was the last time you saw someone tear the roof off of your house to listen to sound faith. Maybe the condition of our world has to get a lot worse, before they come crying to your door for help. Are you not surprised by some of the foolish naysayers, who steadfastly fight against God's help?

Jofes · Mar 8, 2021

Hermit
Last week I went to a dinner with a family of ( I will say Christians ) seven children. One of the smallest was asthmatic. Their faith was in the puffer and the pills, which I do not come against. Why should such a beautiful child have to suffer I asked the Lord? They were somewhat amazed when I said we have to pray for Sofie, I had the Mother place both hands Sofie's chest and then all of the family gathered around and placed a hand on top. I placed my hand on the top and prayed. Healing virtue left my body and I told Sofie to receive healing from Jesus. It is an on going battle to speak faith words into such as this type of condition. Her healing is there but how long will it take to manifest into this natural world, Hope is all we have after this.
Jofes

public hermit · Mar 8, 2021

Jofes said:
Hermit
Last week I went to a dinner with a family of ( I will say Christians ) seven children. One of the smallest was asthmatic. Their faith was in the puffer and the pills, which I do not come against. Why should such a beautiful child have to suffer I asked the Lord? They were somewhat amazed when I said we have to pray for Sofie, I had the Mother place both hands Sofie's chest and then all of the family gathered around and placed a hand on top. I placed my hand on the top and prayed. Healing virtue left my body and I told Sofie to receive healing from Jesus. It is an on going battle to speak faith words into such as this type of condition. Her healing is there but how long will it take to manifest into this natural world, Hope is all we have after this.
Jofes

Hopefully, our hope will end (be realized) after all of this.

I think I know what you meant. Thank you for sharing that experience. May God grant that sweet child the healing for which you prayed.

Mr. M · Mar 8, 2021

public hermit said:
More to the point, the implication is that Jesus could not heal without some faith on the part of the one being healed. Why could he do only a few "deeds of power" there? Well, because of their unbelief. Is there another reading of this text that eliminates this implication? If not, how does one square this passage with a strong notion of divine sovereignty?

There are a few words that convey the idea to receive or accept.
Matthew 19:11 But He said to them, All cannot receive/accept this saying, but only
to whom it has been given.
[G5562] choreo G5562 - chōreō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
This is an interesting word, for it is derived from [G5561] chora meaning open space.
It suggests to me the expression "not having room in your beliefs, ideologies, or doctrines to
accept as being a possibility. Either not having considered it before at all, or it had been quickly
and easily dismissed.
Another verse that is very illustrative/informative:
John 8:37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because
My word has no place in you.

It is further derived from [G5490] chasma, used once here:
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those
who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
There are many divisive topics on this site where a great chasma exists in doctrine.

Another word that I have studied extensively and already done several threads on:
lambano [G2983] to receive
G2983 - lambanō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
I will just look to John for examples, as it us used 40X in that Gospel.
John 3:
27 John(the Baptist) answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been
given to him from heaven.
32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
I only include the verses that use lambano, but I highly recommend a thorough study of
John 3:27-36, as it is a valuable teaching. I have heard people quote verse 30 many times
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
There are many ministries that also borrow the expression "friend of the bridegroom", taken
from this narrative.
One other word I would like to include which is used throughout the New Testament,
especially the Gospel of Luke 14X
[G1209] dechomai-to receive. G1209 - dechomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to receive, he is Elijah who is to come.

Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock who when they hear, receive the word with joy;
and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:5 And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the
very dust from your feet as a testimony against them.

I would conclude that it is not in the limitations of the Lord, but in the ability of the
individual to receive what He offers. In fact, I would like to wrap up with an illustration
from this passage; Jesus was present, and a woman came and took what she needed:
Mark 5:
25 Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years,
26 and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and
was no better, but rather grew worse.
27 When she heard about Jesus, she came behind Him in the crowd and touched His garment.
28 For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”
29 Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was
healed of the affliction.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in Himself that power had gone out of Him, turned around
in the crowd and said, Who touched My clothes?

He always had the power, and when crowds gathered to seek Him out, the scripture says
that He healed them all. Yet, many did not believe unto salvation. They got what they wanted,
but they didn't want what The Father was offering in full. That is why the Gospel has lost so
much power. Too many are offered the golden ticket of knowing that they "go to heaven when
they die", but they are not interested in how The Father wants them to live.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
the show that Augustine did not teach that the "ransom" was paid by Jesus to the devil.

Ausgustine wrote a lot. . .feel free to present what you want me to address, along with some context.

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Actually Jesus infers that everyone will have hell to face.
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Salting with fire is the small fire of suffering (Mk 9:43, 45, 47) in dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out), in order to avoid the big fire of hell.

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
Ausgustine wrote a lot. . .feel free to present what you want me to address, with some context.

Augustine's View on the Atonement was what is known as the ransom theory

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Right. In this scripture "those who believe" are a subset of the "all people" that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

There is a distinction here between the "savings."
There is the saving of not putting all people in a fixed state of condemnation, as are the sinful (fallen) angels who cannot be redeemed, but putting sinful (fallen) man in a condemned state from which he can still be saved even though he is under condemnation (Ro 5:18), and

there is the special saving of those redeemed out of condemnation through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin.

Edit: Or from post #252:

He is Savior in standing to all mankind, but Savior in actuality to all who believe.

All Glory To God · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
Reformed theology is self contradictory. It says that Jesus died only for the elect and then also says that the non elect can be saved.

Well that's not what my intention was, so either I explained it poorly or you misunderstood the point.

I opt for the second.

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

Jofes said:
There is a great amount of evidence that you are not a believer but that you have a believer in you, a part of you that has the capacity to accept what has been told you and then act on these words. This is an on going process and because of the time it takes for what you hear till it finds a solid root we get the problem of doubt.
Look at the Old Testament, into the story of the woman and the oil. Here we find a parallel in the prophets life. Only one old woman in the place had enough faith to accept what Elijah said. It was Elijah that had to survive and God made a way for his prophet to live, and in doing so the old woman was blessed.

Or a believer who is just trying to understand the sovereignty of God.

Or maybe there is still a reckoning with Romans 9:10-24 to be done, and a realization of Isaiah 55:8-9 to be had, before there is agreement (confessing) that "He's God, and I'm not."

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 8, 2021

All Glory To God said:
Well that's not what my intention was, so either I explained it poorly or you misunderstood the point.

I opt for the second.

Explain

Hmm · Mar 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
There is a distinction here between the "savings."
There is the saving of not putting all people in a fixed state of condemnation, as are the sinful (fallen) angels who cannot be redeemed, but putting sinful (fallen) man in a condemned state from which he can still be saved even though he is under condemnation (Ro 5:18), and

there is the special saving of those redeemed out of condemnation through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin.

Phew, I don't think my bank has as many different saving schemes as all that

All Glory To God · Mar 8, 2021

All Glory To God · Mar 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Actually Jesus infers that everyone will have hell to face.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Going a little off topic aren't we Steve? It is a subject I've thinking about of late but a digression somewhat

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
Augustine's View on the Atonement was what is known as the ransom theory

And we're back to your statement and my response in post #227.

Clare73 · Mar 8, 2021

Hmm said:
Phew, I don't think my bank has as many different saving schemes as all that

I see only two.

And you would be right. . .that's why your bank cannot redeem from sin, it doesn't have the right "saving scheme."

In-Christ-Alone · Mar 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Actually Jesus infers that everyone will have hell to face.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Another misunderstood verse

Hmm · Mar 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
I see only two.

And you would be right. . .that's why your bank cannot redeem from sin, it doesn't have the right "saving scheme."

Okay, but the eligibility requirements for your saving schemes are more complicated than at my bank.

Jesus could do no deed of power there

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