AMAZING FUN FACTS ON GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT AND SUNDAY WORSHIP!

SabbathBlessings

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No, would be kind of hard, he died in 1994. I did listen to one of his messages and he was another claiming wine was grape juice.
I would be happy to engage any SDA pastor or theologian in a debate, I have with a few already.
Ask anyone who knows Greek the different greek words for wine and grape juice that isn't SDA.
No he is very much alive. No sure who you’re referring to.
 
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RBPerry

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No he is very much alive. No sure who you’re referring to.

My mistake, I was thinking of someone else. I would love to have a chat with him, but most Adventist won't engage me as you and others have. I had to look him up, but he is definately old school Adventist.
Here is the problem, who are you going to believe, Paul and Peter, or Mrs. White. I'll stick with the original eleven disciples.
Why was it in SDA schools we had to read more of Mrs. Whites books than the bible? Don't miss understand me, she did have some good insights, she just got carried away with her dreams.
She was deeply affected by the Millerite movement (hell fire and damnation) at a very young age. Those experiences most likely led to many of her dreams. That is just my opinion and isn't fact based.
You see when you go to extremes sometimes you lose site of reality.
Look we have the German Baptist, Quakers, Mormons, Adventist, and of course the Jehovah's Witness that just couldn't follow orthodox beliefs and look at the confusion it has caused.
I also see we now have a reformed Adventist movement, don't know much about them, or what they reformed.
The Baptist are no different, there are so many variations of Baptist theology floating around that I'm not sure they truly know what they believe. Actually there is a sect of Baptist that keep the Saturday Sabbath.
The sad part is now we have gay pastors, guess they decided all aspects of the Mosaic law didn't matter.
 
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RBPerry

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Brother, God is using the Sunday tradition to correct an even older Jewish Saturday tradition. When we stop with our worldly jealousy and quarrel with each other over which Sabbath tradition we follow and seek the truth of the Sabbath in God's word, we will discover that no one is following God's true biblical Sabbath.

I have no idea where you are coming up with your opinions, nor do I have any idea of your educational background but you really need to get grounded in reality. You claim to be an Adventist, I suggest you get under the authority of an SDA pastor.
 
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guevaraj

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I have no idea where you are coming up with your opinions, nor do I have any idea of your educational background but you really need to get grounded in reality. You claim to be an Adventist, I suggest you get under the authority of an SDA pastor.
Brother, this is what I have observed and you have confirmed it with your unwillingness to listen. Everyone is fighting for an easier "human tradition" than what God really reveals because they know this world will hate them and they want the world to love them.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’ (John 15:18-25 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Freedm

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Sometimes in the Bible "Judged" means "judged and condemned"
And sometimes it means "evaluated"

Context matters

As I always say - "The Bible is the Word of God"

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.
Not sure why you're arguing with me. Do you not agree that Jesus said he would not judge those who accept him?
 
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RBPerry

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Brother, this is what I have observed and you have confirmed it with your unwillingness to listen.

Your right, I'm not willing to listen to something that makes no sense.
 
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guevaraj

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Your right, I'm not willing to listen to something that makes no sense.
Brother, doesn't it make sense to you that God has revealed a more complicated truth about the Sabbath than our simplified "human tradition"? It all comes down to what it means for God to make the seventh day of Eden "Holy". Did God set it in that time zone for everyone to keep it in that time zone? Here's why we were wrong!

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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BobRyan

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Not sure why you're arguing with me. Do you not agree that Jesus said he would not judge those who accept him?

I point to texts that say "WE ALL" must be brought before the judgment seat of Christ 2 Cor 5:10 - this fact is not cancelled by a statement from Christ that we will not be condemned (judged as failing) in that judgment if we are born-again spirit-filled Christians walking by faith.

Nothing Christ stated deleted these texts

Sometimes in the Bible "Judged" means "judged and condemned"
And sometimes it means "evaluated"

Context matters

As I always say - "The Bible is the Word of God"

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

So we see clearly that it is not Not either-or... but a doctrine that is both-and.
 
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RBPerry

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I point to texts that say "WE ALL" must be brought before the judgment seat of Christ 2 Cor 5:10 - this fact is not cancelled by a statement from Christ that we will not be condemned (judged as failing) in that judgment if we are born-again spirit-filled Christians walking by faith.

Nothing Christ stated deleted these texts



So we see clearly that it is not Not either-or... but a doctrine that is both-and.

To me there is no question we will be judged on how we lived our life here on earth. It is interesting I'm also an avid study of near death experiences and many testimonies talk about the "judgement" most refer to it as a lifes review.
In the apocrypha of Paul he talks about a soul that had murdered here on earth and it was punished and then cast down into a body prepared for it. If that was accurate that soul never sought forgiveness through Christ.
That also has implications of reincarnation and of course that is way outside of orthodox thinking.
I think once we have an opportunity to meet Christ we are all going to be enlightened to some amazing things that we just didn't understand through scripture.
One thing I have learned to avoid is the fear tactic that many hellfire and damnation pastors seem to love to preach. When you look at how Christ lived his life and the lessons he taught the hell fire and damnation is inconsistent with what he taught us.
 
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BobRyan

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Sometimes in the Bible "Judged" means "judged and condemned"
And sometimes it means "evaluated"

Context matters

As I always say - "The Bible is the Word of God"

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.



To me there is no question we will be judged on how we lived our life here on earth

True - 2 Cor 5:10 makes that clear so also does Rom 2 where both good and bad deeds are being included in that judgment. Not "good deeds and less good deeds".

So then Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death" - the reward for bad deeds.
 
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RBPerry

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So the point is? We have a promise, if we repent and turn from our sin He (God) will remember them no more.
You give a classic example of hell fire and damnation preaching, pick the verses that fit your sermon and go for the guilt trip, had too much of that in that past.
It isn't only the SDA that do that, some other denominations do as well.
I really wish all Christian bothers and sisters would try thinking for themselves, and maybe try thinking outside of whatever box they're in a little bit.
 
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guevaraj

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So the point is? We have a promise, if we repent and turn from our sin He (God) will remember them no more. You give a classic example of hell fire and damnation preaching, pick the verses that fit your sermon and go for the guilt trip, had too much of that in that past. It isn't only the SDA that do that, some other denominations do as well. I really wish all Christian bothers and sisters would try thinking for themselves, and maybe try thinking outside of whatever box they're in a little bit.
Brother, the Sabbath as a day of the week is a "human tradition" adapted from the Jews that God's word opposes with the manna story. Moses kept the Sabbath from morning to morning and not from evening to evening. This verifies that God capped the end of the first day in a "morning". The Jews were wrong in many things that we must correct by studying the written word of God and not assume they are right because the "human tradition" continues with us for so long. They are wrong to define a day of the week based on how God taught them to remember the Sabbath in Israel. A Sabbath that in Israel is not a weekday like in Eden.

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” (Mark 7:8-13 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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BobRyan

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Sometimes in the Bible "Judged" means "judged and condemned"
And sometimes it means "evaluated"

Context matters

As I always say - "The Bible is the Word of God"

Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Rom 2:13-16
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

So the point is? We have a promise, if we repent and turn from our sin He (God) will remember them no more.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

That "will remember them no more" point in time has to be after the 2 Cor 5 event already mentioned. obviously.

And has to be after the Romans 2 event.

Both-and not either-or

You give a classic example of hell fire and damnation preaching, pick the verses that fit your sermon and go for the guilt trip, had too much of that in that past.
It isn't only the SDA that do that, some other denominations do as well.
I really wish all Christian bothers and sisters would try thinking for themselves, and maybe try thinking outside of whatever box they're in a little bit.

disparaging remarks may be entertaining but they do not serve as a funny sort of "substitute" for Bible details when confronted with Bible texts that do not fit preference.
 
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RBPerry

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Sometimes in the Bible "Judged" means "judged and condemned"
And sometimes it means "evaluated"


disparaging remarks may be entertaining but they do not serve as a funny sort of "substitute" for Bible details when confronted with Bible texts that do not fit preference.

Bob, if you feel my comments were disparaging towards you I apologize. That was not my intent and I'm sorry you took it that way. I do realize my sense of humor gets me in trouble at times.

You see, I know we have a loving and forgiving heavenly father. At least forgiveness for those who repent and seek His guidance and then follow it. If someone wishes to keep the Saturday sabbath that is fine, just don't consider it a sin not to. Paul dealt with that and so did Jesus.

If someone wants to drink a little alcohol, coffee, soda, have a steak to pork chops, don't consider it a sin because you choose to abstain. To this day I can't stand the smell or taste of a vegetarian burger.

You really don't need to post bible verse, we all know any preacher can pick and choose verses to support whatever message he wishes to convey.

Tell me why God waited fifteen hundred years to deal with the Saturday keeping, that in itself doesn't make sense.

The SDA started during the second great awakening in the early 1800s. That was basically started by the Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterians. However Edson, Bates, and Andrews believed that Ellen White's dreams were actual prophecy based on Rev 12:12 and 19:10.

The idea that the SDA link the Saturday keeping to the Jewish law really is immaterial because the Adventist theology doesn't line up with Jewish theology at all other than the Saturday issue.

Sadly many main stream denominations and non-denominational theologians look at the SDA in the same light as Mormons, and Jehovah Witness. They view them as cults. Now I do not share that belief, and I still have the utmost respect for my Adventist brothers and sisters even if they don't like me.

Bob, do you know how hard it is to walk away from something your entire family believes and then rejects you for your decision? It took four years at Loma Linda along with threats of expulsion because I asked the tough questions that most SDA will not deal with to enlighten me.
 
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guevaraj

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Tell me why God waited fifteen hundred years to deal with the Saturday keeping, that in itself doesn't make sense.
Brother, it's called progressive revelation! The sections of the Bible written later contain a more complete revelation from God than the earlier sections. Jesus said why He couldn't tell us more than the Holy Spirit would tell us later. God does not give us a complete understanding of His plan at once. We couldn't "bear" it.

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (John 16:12-15 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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RBPerry

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You do have much to learn, "Spirit of truth" came during Pentecost when the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Progressive revelation, you can get plenty of them in most Pentecostal churches, problem is most of them can't be confirmed. I don't believe Mrs. White was a prophet.
How many of Mrs. Whites books have you read? Please, you need to do your homework.
 
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guevaraj

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You do have much to learn, "Spirit of truth" came during Pentecost when the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Progressive revelation, you can get plenty of them in most Pentecostal churches, problem is most of them can't be confirmed. I don't believe Mrs. White was a prophet. How many of Mrs. Whites books have you read? Please, you need to do your homework.
Brother, next is her inspired passage about what the angel told her we would understand in the future. To focus you on the relevant part I will ask a question. Why did the angel tell us to read carefully and there you will find "when it is" if it remains the same? We had changed "what even is" from 6 pm to sundown after 8 years, but we have not changed to this day "when it is". We still assume that "evening" takes place at the beginning of the day when the angel said that we would understand more in the future. I, in the future, have understood that "evening" takes place in the middle of the first day by being "directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath" due to the units of the 2300 year prophecy that started our church. I have understood more as the angel said!

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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RBPerry

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“Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.”

That's a good way to circumvent a issue, "oh I don't know why so I'll just say we will understand later. "
For the sake of this thread, I will not go into all the problematic issues concerning Mrs. White dreams. So if you think you are going to support your opinion based on her writings your wasting your time with me.
 
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guevaraj

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“Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” That's a good way to circumvent a issue, "oh I don't know why so I'll just say we will understand later. " For the sake of this thread, I will not go into all the problematic issues concerning Mrs. White dreams. So if you think you are going to support your opinion based on her writings your wasting your time with me.
Brother, that her inspiration knew about this tells me that she is the real deal. However, I didn't learn it from her, I learned it from the Bible. The Bible offers much evidence that confirms what I saw on the first day of Genesis. The first Sabbath at the end of the creation week is from morning to morning, confirmed by a Passover rule and the manna story, which remembered is in Israel from evening to evening. The explanation confirmed by the International Date Line (IDL) is that remembered is the Sabbath in the Eden time zone. In the days of creation, the "evening" falls in the middle of the weekdays. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning and the days after until the first Sabbath from morning to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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