Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Clare73 · Mar 5, 2021

Davy said:
God's law against murder, manslayer, etc., is about the civil law, as five of the Ten Commandments are about the civil relations between man and man, and the other five are between God and man. God's law against prostitution is not in the Ten Commandments, neither is sodomy, nor perjury, so Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 1 is definitely referring to God's laws and not just to the Ten Commandments or what some call the "moral law". Further proof that this is so is easy, since these laws are still on the books in many states in the U.S. and western society in general.

One of the things I find many brethren in Christ fail to understand regarding God's law in Christian society is their lack of knowledge that God gave the tribe of Judah the responsibility of lawgiver all the way up to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. This specifically is one of the prophecies that Jacob gave to his son Judah, including for the last days.

Gen 49:1
And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days."
KJV

Gen 49:9-12
9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
KJV

That is why even Jews that believe on Jesus still have a propensity to try and keep God's laws. He gave it to them for to protect the rest of us in a peaceful society. So really arguments trying to do away with God's laws is really stupid, because God has ordained Judah (Jews) to be lawgiver among His people all the way up to Christ's future return. That is what Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy 1 says God's law is for, not to protect sinners and the ungodly, but to protect the righteous. Seeking to remove God's laws in Christian society is of the devil and the children of darkness.

Shiloh has come and the law has departed from Judah.

Clare73 · Mar 5, 2021

Clare73 said:
They aren't lost in the
1) prophecies relating to the return from exile:
Jer 3:18, 31:27 (where Israel is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)
Eze 37:15-22 (where Ephraim is the northern kingdom of the ten tribes)

2) return from exile: Ezra 6:17
the remnant that returned was from all the tribes

3) NT: Ac 26:7; Jas 1:1

Davy said:
The ten tribe northern kingdom after Solomon's days, called the "house of Israel", or just "Israel", or "Samaria", or "Ephraim", or "kingdom of Israel", was scattered to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return in majority. They are still scattered out of the holy land to this day. Only a small remnant of the northern ten tribes chose to trek south and join with the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem when king Jeroboam of Ephraim setup the two gold calf idols in false worship.

Per Ezra 1:5, and Ezra 2, none... of the northern ten tribes of Israel are mentioned returning. The 'only'... tribes mentioned returning are the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some of the Levites, and strangers that went captive to Babylon with them, including the Nethinims which were the leftover Canaanites that became temple servants.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the ten tribes of Israel were still scattered beyond Euphrates in his day, and were a great number.

So I don't know where some get the idea that the ten tribes of Israel returned already, because that is pure myth, not Biblical nor historical.

The Scriptures presented do not regard them as lost.

Leaf473 · Mar 5, 2021

Clare73 said:
Check out what Satan told her. . .God was withholding something good from them.

Well... It's not stated. I agree that most people will see that implication there.

There's always an element of subjectivity in seeing implications in a set of words, imo.

Most human languages make big use of implications, which is what often leads to two people reading the same set of words and understanding it differently, again imo.

Which is what we see happening in this very thread

Leaf473 · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Well, we were talking about the 10 commandments being eternal or not. If they are not, then the Sabbath command is not. However, we know the Sabbath day(actual day) was a created one - so it cannot be eternal.

So, to answer the question, it all depends on how you view the definition. I believe they are separate but intrinsic.

Me, God's law is eternal because it is a part of Him. The 'purpose' of His law can change states without it changing who He is.

There will never be a time when He will allow us to have other gods before Him. However, there will be a time when we will not consider having other gods before him.

There will never be a time when we will be allowed to murder. However, there will be a time when we will not even consider murdering(on any level including hating our brother).

The principle can be applied to all the commandments.

I agree that God's nature is eternal in that it is unchanging.

But a commandment? I wonder if a commandment can exist if only the commander exists and nothing exists to be commanded?
But that sounds like kind of a philosophical rabbit hole or something

Leaf473 · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Both.

I've learned to examine everything in every way possible. You never know what a word is going to mean to someone these days.

Well, then, let's start with this:

To obey is to perform a particular set of actions in response to an instruction,

To keep is to hold in high regard, treasure.

In practice, there's going to be a lot of overlap between the two.

Hebrew has a very small vocabulary relative to English, so in some cases it may actually be the same Hebrew word translated differently. If you want to pick out two occurrences we could examine them more carefully!

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
I agree that God's nature is eternal in that it is unchanging.

But a commandment? I wonder if a commandment can exist if only the commander exists and nothing exists to be commanded?
But that sounds like kind of a philosophical rabbit hole or something

I think it can exist. Just in a different form. I will not allow my grandkids to play with knives when they are at my house. However, I do not have any grandkids at this time.

We will exist forever with Him though, so the thing commanded never ceases to exist really.

Also to think about is that just because a commandment does not elicit a response does not mean what it commands does not exist.

I do not have to tell my kids to not eat broccoli - they will do that naturally.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Well, then, let's start with this:

To obey is to perform a particular set of actions in response to an instruction,

To keep is to hold in high regard, treasure.

In practice, there's going to be a lot of overlap between the two.

Hebrew has a very small vocabulary relative to English, so in some cases it may actually be the same Hebrew word translated differently. If you want to pick out two occurrences we could examine them more carefully!

I think that you could look into the uses of the words in Greek(NT) and see how they relate to the Commandments to get a good idea. I know the Greek vocabulary is rather large.

I agree with your view.

In theory, you can obey something you do not keep - but you cannot keep something you do not obey.

I have not looked it up personally, but I bet you will find the word 'keep' used more often with the word commandments than you will find the word 'obey' used with it.

Clare73 · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Are you saying God was withholding something good from them, or that Satan told her that?

He told her their eyes would be opened and they would know good from evil.

She inferred that from what Satan said.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Clare73 said:
He told her their eyes would be opened and they would know good from evil.

She inferred that from what Satan said.

Interesting. I guess I have heard that said before but forgot about it.

I can't agree with that interpretation. There are three reasons why she ate, none of which say anything about God withholding something.

One thing I still find interesting to this day is that we always say "good from evil" when the Bible always reads "good and evil".

Some say there isn't a difference, but there really is a difference when the words are used properly. I suppose some people don't differentiate between them, but a lot of meaning is lost when you don't.

Clare73 · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Interesting. I guess I have heard that said before but forgot about it.

I can't agree with that interpretation. There are three reasons why she ate, none of which say anything about God withholding something.

One thing I still find interesting to this day is that we always say "good from evil" when the Bible always reads "good and evil".

Some say there isn't a difference, but there really is a difference when the words are used properly. I suppose some people don't differentiate between them, but a lot of meaning is lost when you don't.

Desirable for gaining wisdom sounds a lot like knowing good and evil.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Clare73 said:
Desirable for gaining wisdom sounds a lot like knowing good and evil.

That is for sure what she thought. In fact, I think most people think that.

There is a way that seems wise, but the end is death.

Truth is, they then did know good and evil. They had known God, and then they knew Satan.

But ever since then mankind has thought that he could know good from evil. The problem is, the death that ensued from them eating ruined the good they knew, and it's been a downhill slide ever since.

Chi.C · Mar 5, 2021

pescador · Mar 5, 2021

The words spoken in the Garden of Eden (actually an orchard) were the first command, a.k.a., the first of God's laws. Adam and Eve had a choice: either trust God (faith) or use your own ability (knowledge). People from that day onward have the same choice: (spiritual) life or (spiritual) death.

LoveGodsWord · Mar 5, 2021

imge said:
Hi again,

I was having a discussion with a friend and hoping you will consider these scriptures in regards to God's 4th commandment and how "rest" is referenced.

None of these scriptures provided says anywhere that the Sabbath is eternally fulfilled in Christ and God's 4th commandment is abolished. Let's look at the detail of the scriptures quoted.

Many get mixed up in the "shadows" because they do not understand the difference between God's eternal law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is in the old and new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and the prophetic shadow laws that point to things to come in the body of Christ for remission of sins that are a part of Gods salvation for all mankind *Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1-17. It is "impossible" for Gods' 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments to be a "shadow law" of anything but here is the reasons why....

1. God's Sabbath was made "before" sin and before the laws and Gods' plan of salvation was given to all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

2. According to the scriptures the Sabbath was made for mankind when mankind was in perfect harmony with their creator and sinless and walked and talked with God face to face. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the seventh day *Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3 and Mark 2:27 of creation where God blessed the "seventh day" of creation and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind.

3. God's Sabbath is a part of the "finished work of creation" it is day seven of a seven day week that God blessed and made a holy day of rest for all man *Genesis 2:1-3

4. God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments points "backwards" to the finished work of creation, not "forwards" to things to come. For example God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments starts off as "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY" (memorial - remember) - Exodus 20:8. God's 4th commandment therefore is a "memorial" of the "finished work of creation" this is also shown when it is written " [10], But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God" and also the reason for the memorial commandment that points backward to the "finished work of creation" as further evidence is given in "v11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

5. There was no JEW, there was no ISRAEL and there was no Moses when God made the "seventh" day Sabbath rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27. Jesus is Lord and creator of the Sabbath and he commands his people to keep it as a memorial of the finished work of creation and a holy day rest and a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth *Mark 2:28; Exodus 20:8-11; James 2:10-11; Hebrews 4:9

6. Shadow laws point "forward" to things to come not backwards to things completed which the Sabbath and God's 4th commandments points back to.

7. JESUS is the Lord and creator of the Sabbath and kept it as a holy day of rest and taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath the way he intended it to be kept.

8. The Sabbath will continue to be kept after the second coming in the new heavens and new earth. *Isaiah 66:22-23.

The above scriptural evidence is provided to prove that it is impossible and not biblical to claim that the Sabbath is a shadow of anything. God does not change his laws so that we are free to break them.

Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 actually prove the Sabbath is still to be kept by the people of God who believe and follow Gods Word and that we enter into God's Sabbath rest only as we believe and follow Gods' Word. Let's look at what the scriptures actually say. The key here is letting the scriptures define what "God's Rest" in Hebrews 4.

WHAT IS GOD'S REST/HIS REST/MY REST IN HEBREWS 4 AND OTHER SCRIPTURE?

HEBREWS 4:1-11
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
[4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
[5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST! Let's continue...

6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

[10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).

Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 are talking about both the Gospel rest of believing and following God's word; v29 Learn of me; v30 my burden (doing) is light. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it and God’s rest they enter into which is the seventh day Sabbath rest of Genesis 2:1-3. This agrees with Hebrews 4:1-5 where the topic is not our rest but God’s rest from the seventh day after finishing creation on the seventh day Sabbath in reference to His Rest v1; My Rest v3-5with v4 saying For he spoke in a certain place (Genesis 2:1-3) of the seventh day on this wise, and God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Hebrews 4:9-11 showing that it remains for the people of God to enter into God’s rest and continue keeping the seventh day Sabbath by believing and following Gods’ Word – the gospel (the Word of God).

God bless

Thanks for sharing these scriptures on the topic of Hebrews 4. I agree that there is two rests being spoken of here. One is our rest that we receive by believing and following God's Word which is the 1. Gospel rest as written in the scripture context of Hebrews 4:2 and 2. God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) as defined as the "seventh day Sabbath" in Hebrews as shown in Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5 and 9 which also refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 in Hebrews 4:4-5.

Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is a warning that we as God's people cannot enter into God's seventh day Sabbath rest of God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 if we do not believe and follow God's Word. No one can separate the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word from obedience to God's law as the one leads to the other through faith that works by love *1 John 5:3-4 and love is the fulfilling of Gods' law heart in all those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise through the Spirit (1 John 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; James 2:8-12; John 14:15; John 15:10).

According to the scriptures no one is believing and following God's Word (gospel rest) if they are not doing what God's Word says and breaking God's commandments and neither do they know God according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6; Matthew 7:21-23. God's 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Paul in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and John in 1 John 3:4 and if we knowingly break anyone of God's 10 commandments according to James we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

I agree also that it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath *Exodus 20:8-11 to be a "shadow law" of anything as it was created before law when mankind was in perfect harmony with God when there was no sin and points backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3) not forwards to things to come (Colossians 2:17) "Remember" (pointing backwards by remembering the finished work of God in Genesis 2:1-3) the Sabbath day to keep it holy" - Exodus 20:8-10. So in summary Hebrews 4 is talking about two rests and is a warning to us today that no one enters God's rest (the seventh day Sabbath - Hebrews 4:1-3; 9) by not believing and following God's Word (the gospel rest - our rest Matthew 11:28-30).

HEBREWS 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD (those who have received the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word) TO KEEP THE SABBATH (God's rest - Hebrews 4:1-5)

Thanks for sharing sis

God bless :wave:

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
"...if the actions violates the Law, the actions is not pleasing in the eyes of the Lord (His Rules His Punishments). It cannot be good."

Hi Chi.C,

Say, what is your understanding of the idea that the priests in the temple were commanded by God to profane the Sabbath?

They were commanded to work - but sacred ministry -- while it is work... is not a violation of the worship criteria for Sabbath seen in Lev 23:3 and Is 66:23.

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2021

Leaf473 said:
True!

Is there something in the law that says certain kinds of work are okay on the sabbath? I'm not aware of that, but maybe I missed something?

Lev 23:3 a "day of holy convocation" and after the fall of mankind - there were certain animal sacrifices that were given on the Sabbath so by definition a priest had to be working.

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I wanted to comment here.

The command says to keep the day holy, but when you really think about that it is impossible. Only God is holy, and only He can keep something holy.

I think this is one of those times when the meaning of a word really matters. The command is to "remember the Sabbath" - and in doing so this will keep it holy in our hearts. Not that we keep it holy, no more than we can keep God holy, but by remembering each week we never forget who God is and what He has done.

One has to "be holy" to keep it holy

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

BobRyan said:
Salvation is rest in Christ -- rest from our own work to save, and an eternal rest in Christ's work which saved us.

Sabbath keeping is fellowship with Christ and not taking God's name in vain is obedience to Christ.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

BobRyan said:
One has to "be holy" to keep it holy

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Do you believe you are holy?

pasifika · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Do you believe you are holy?

Great question Nathan!! I hope those who think they can keep a day holy should realize that they themselves needed to be made holy first..

BobRyan · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Do you believe you are holy?

I believe 1 Peter 1 and 2 are in the Bible and are true. No text says "call yourself holy".. I trust the Word of God.

There is an argument of the form "The Word of God is not good enough"

BobRyan said:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1 Peter 1
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

But I am sticking with the Word.

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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