Should the church have a louder political voice?

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Hmm said:
He argues that there shouId not be a separation between the church and politics or faith and politics or, for that matter, anything and politics:

Which church? Your church? Look at this site. There are several denominations here arguing that their way is the one and only way. Christians can’t even agree amongst themselves. You want to add that to the political mix?

Hmm said:
Is there anybody who doesn’t think that it’s a scandal that there are so many homeless people on our streets? But we’ve learned to live with it. We’ve learned to accommodate things that we know are wrong, which it would be possible to do something about… If we think it’s right that everyone should have health as a matter of right, regardless of ability to pay, shouldn’t it be the same for housing and possibly for a basic wage?”

If everyone is so concerned about the scandal that is the homeless, let the church, within itself, mandate that each member love his neighbor by welcoming at least one homeless person into their own home and help that person get back on his feet. Boom! Problem solved. Let’s see how well that plan is received by the concerned congregation.

Hmm said:
"Loving your neighbour is a profoundly political statement...

Loving your neighbor is a profoundly Christian statement. Christians have the power to make changes by doing this on their own. Asking politics to do this for them only shows that Christians are willing to go only so far (which is mostly throwing a few dollars at it) when it comes to loving neighbors.

Hmm said:
Do do you think that as a church we need to make Christianity more relevant to people's lives by giving a vision of hope through speaking out more on these issues and centring on loving your neighbour?

Talking about it is ok I suppose. But it’s meaningless when compared to action (action speaks louder than words). I didn’t search for a passage in the Bible to support this, but I’m pretty sure something to this effect could be found. Probably something involving a pharacee, saducee, or one of those guys. They always seem to be on the short end of this kind of sentiment.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Maybe so, although the Roman Catholic Church is by far the largest denomination in the USA.

That doesn't mean much when a majority of Catholics a nominal at best. That's the Catholic Church's own fault for not being willing to separate from those members and tell them, there are actual standards we expect of Catholics. Hence why you have so many Joe Bidens, Nancy Pelosi's and Fr James Martins.

Well, sure. In addition to increased immigration from non-Christian populations, the USA has grown steadily less religious along with Western Europe, Canada, and elsewhere in the West.

My point was just that if the USA and Europe are to be compared, state churches appear not to have done well at keeping the society religious.

My point isn't even on the notion of State Churches. That wouldn't solve the problems in the USA. It's to break down this notion of the liberal enlightenment that there must be an absolute separation of religion from secular power. I don't see any benefit it has provided for the Church and the actual advancement of Christianity in society. Rather it has made Christianity less effective and taken over what were once the domains of the Church.

Christianity was promulgated fairly effectively when it wasn't stopped due to law in the USA. Prayer in public schools was a good thing, to reinforce the at least partial Christian nature of what the students were doing. Yet if I am to believe many sincere American Christians, the best thing done was to ban prayer in public school. Why? Not on any Christian standard, but on the standard of enlightenment liberalism and protecting the individual. Part of the problem is that Christianity has never put the protection of the individual at the heart of it's teaching and thus the conflict.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I sort of was thinking about something along the lines of the OP but much differently. More in terms of stopping following current events and politics because I found myself really hating and loathing the other side because of mutual disdain etc. and realizing that is a problem. But it is a problem we cannot really do a lot about because "We struggle not with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers", and the Bible says how messed up living in the World will get before the end "that the love of many will grow cold".

So anyway I am thinking about doing something like "The Benedict Option" when it comes to politics.

<i>The Benedict Option</i>
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I sort of was thinking about something along the lines of the OP but much differently. More in terms of stopping following current events and politics because I found myself really hating and loathing the other side because of mutual disdain etc. and realizing that is a problem. But it is a problem we cannot really do a lot about because "We struggle not with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers", and the Bible says how messed up living in the World will get before the end "that the love of many will grow cold".

So anyway I am thinking about doing something like "The Benedict Option" when it comes to politics.


What Rod Dreher gets right in "The Benedict Option" is just as important as what he gets wrong.

Rod Dreher's idea is nice but in order for it to be effective such Christian communities would need to rigorously enforce standards and not tolerate deviation. They would need to be like the Amish in that regard who actually have a high retention rate after rumspringa.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Rod Dreher's idea is nice but in order for it to be effective such Christian communities would need to rigorously enforce standards and not tolerate deviation. They would need to be like the Amish in that regard who actually have a high retention rate after rumspringa.

Yeah I'm going with the big idea and less with the "devil in the details" specifics. I actually have not read the book just read stuff on it.


It got a lot of attention because of stuff going on in the US under Obama were it looked like the rights of Catholics and other Christian groups was being infringed on by the government. You had some convents that did adoption by LGBQ groups protested that because they would not let Lesbians and gays adopt. And then you had some Catholic universities who came into conflict with the government because of Obamacare, because the Catholics were against birth control and did not want it covered in their insurance plan and Obamacare made that something that insurance always had to have. That was more an issue of liberals working for Catholic institutions and wanting to force them to do what they wanted them to do.


Some of these problems however came up because of stuff that was proposed by the Bush presidency. Senior Bush wanted to have state backing for some programs where church's do charity work, and W Bush was able to make that into actual legislation with some kind of "Faith Based" nonprofit legislation. That churches could receive certain kinds of government backing as vender distributors of social programs etc. but they could not discriminate on the people who received them based on their religion.
 
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Hmm

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Which church? Your church? Look at this site. There are several denominations here arguing that their way is the one and only way. Christians can’t even agree amongst themselves. You want to add that to the political mix?

By "church" I mean churches in general

If everyone is so concerned about the scandal that is the homeless, let the church, within itself, mandate that each member love his neighbor by welcoming at least one homeless person into their own home and help that person get back on his feet. Boom! Problem solved. Let’s see how well that plan is received by the concerned congregation.

I agree, I think Christians have to set a personal example as well as calling for societal changes. Churches here do run things like money management and debt advice centres, food banks and free homework centres and things like that. I think they look at it not as substitute or additions to social services but to do God's work and also as an opportunity to talk about Jesus if a client expresses an interest. I know of one Christian, unfortunately not myself, who has invited a homeless person to live temporarily with them - I agree, it's a lot easier to talk about than do things like that.
 
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Hmm

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Those are worthwhile points, but it remains true that the United States has been and still remains more religious without a state church than many European nations which have a state church.

That's true for the UK and France at least. Tony Blair related once after he left office that on one occasion he wanted to end a prime ministerial speech with the line "God bless Britain", but was persuaded out of it by aides. "One of the civil servants said in a very po-faced way 'I just remind you prime minister, this is not America' in this very disapproving tone, so I gave up the idea. I think it is a shame that you can't since it is obviously part of what you are," he recalled.
 
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Hanging by a Thread

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By "church" I mean churches in general
Well, yeah, I know that. That's my point. There're so many different viewpoints that I don't see how adding this chaos to politics could help. Are we going to make laws in general?


I agree, I think Christians have to set a personal example as well as calling for societal changes. Churches here do run things like money management and debt advice centres, food banks and free homework centres and things like that. I think they look at it not as substitute or additions to social services but to do God's work and also as an opportunity to talk about Jesus if a client expresses an interest. I know of one Christian, unfortunately not myself, who has invited a homeless person to live temporarily with them.
Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. There's no place for politics in religion. It's all a dog and pony show anyway-here in the U.S. The only qualifications for President is wealth and fame. America had become so bored that a few hours a night of reality TV wasn't enough. So, just for the fun of it, we elected a reality TV character so we could have the 24/7 reality TV that we all saw during Trumps tenure. I mean think about it. Donald Trump was our president. Donald Trump! May as well be Donald Duck. And if Biden doesn't step up his game and provide the media with some controversial or scandulous entertainment he's going to lose the 2024 election to, I dunno, someone like Steve Tyler. And through it all America will just keep on rolling like it is. Doesn't matter who's in office. Big money runs this country.
 
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For the church to speak on policies and priorities isn't a violation of separation of church and state. But I'm not sure how effective it is in the US and UK. Our politics is basically controlled by what voters think. Neither the Church of England nor my own denomination represent enough voters to have much influence. Evangelicals do, at least in the US, but they are already shouting at the top of their voices about abortion and gays, to the point where a lot of people think that's what Christianity is actually about.

The main thing I think the CoE and US denominations might do is try to make it clear that Christians also care about Jesus' teachings, and not just traditional sexual ethics, and they do have implications for policy. But the target would be more the public perception of Christianity than any marginal effect we might have on public policy.

There are countries in which a church (typically Catholic) does actually have an impact, but I don't think that's true on the US or UK, in part because politicians know that members don't necessarily (and in the case of Catholics, don't typically) reflect the official views of their church. But even in those countries, it's typically the worst aspects of Catholic teaching that affect politics, not their broader social policy.
 
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Hmm

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For the church to speak on policies and priorities isn't a violation of separation of church and state. But I'm not sure how effective it is in the US and UK. Our politics is basically controlled by what voters think. Neither the Church of England nor my own denomination represent enough voters to have much influence. Evangelicals do, at least in the US, but they are already shouting at the top of their voices about abortion and gays, to the point where a lot of people think that's what Christianity is actually about.

The main thing I think the CoE and US denominations might do is try to make it clear that Christians also care about Jesus' teachings, and not just traditional sexual ethics, and they do have implications for policy. But the target would be more the public perception of Christianity than any marginal effect we might have on public policy.

There are countries in which a church (typically Catholic) does actually have an impact, but I don't think that's true on the US or UK, in part because politicians know that members don't necessarily (and in the case of Catholics, don't typically) reflect the official views of their church. But even in those countries, it's typically the worst aspects of Catholic teaching that affect politics, not their broader social policy.

I agree. One important area where churches have come together is in their appeal to cancel third world debt but this has been going on for many years with no success.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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For the church to speak on policies and priorities isn't a violation of separation of church and state. But I'm not sure how effective it is in the US and UK. Our politics is basically controlled by what voters think. Neither the Church of England nor my own denomination represent enough voters to have much influence. Evangelicals do, at least in the US, but they are already shouting at the top of their voices about abortion and gays, to the point where a lot of people think that's what Christianity is actually about.

The main thing I think the CoE and US denominations might do is try to make it clear that Christians also care about Jesus' teachings, and not just traditional sexual ethics, and they do have implications for policy. But the target would be more the public perception of Christianity than any marginal effect we might have on public policy.

There are countries in which a church (typically Catholic) does actually have an impact, but I don't think that's true on the US or UK, in part because politicians know that members don't necessarily (and in the case of Catholics, don't typically) reflect the official views of their church. But even in those countries, it's typically the worst aspects of Catholic teaching that affect politics, not their broader social policy.

Manifestly untrue. Politics is controlled by what those in power think. Most people generally go along with what those from the top propose as social policy.
 
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Hmm

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Manifestly untrue. Politics is controlled by what those in power think. Most people generally go along with what those from the top propose as social policy.

I think there's truth in both statements. Politicians almost by definition are expert at reading the public mood and at exploiting this for their own ends. The press is obviously very instrumental in leading public opinion but when public opinion changes by itself the press will change sides to keep their readership.
 
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dms1972

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The archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, wrote in an article recently that Britain has learned to live with wrongs when it should be trying to change them and that it must reset its compass, from housing to wages:

“Our compass has slipped; we’ve allowed ourselves to believe that things can’t change, that this is just the way the world is. Politics has, I think, shrunk. There’s a loss of vision about what the world could be like.”

He argues that there shouId not be a separation between the church and politics or faith and politics or, for that matter, anything and politics:

"It’s about how we inhabit the world – and everybody and every organisation and every community has a voice and a stake.”

He said that the church should have a political voice because it's at the heart of what the calling of the church is:

"Loving your neighbour is a profoundly political statement... Is there anybody who doesn’t think that it’s a scandal that there are so many homeless people on our streets? But we’ve learned to live with it. We’ve learned to accommodate things that we know are wrong, which it would be possible to do something about… If we think it’s right that everyone should have health as a matter of right, regardless of ability to pay, shouldn’t it be the same for housing and possibly for a basic wage?”

I think we need to use our voice more to write to MPs about a whole variety of issues. Christians can be involved in society in many ways - and also by prayer and financial support of charitable organisations.

One issue in the UK which needs to be addressed are the cuts to district nursing - I read (whether the figures are for the whole of the UK or just England and Wales I am not sure) that the number of district nurses have dropped from 7000 (ten years ago) to about 4000 at present. This surely needs addressed in the light of COVID. However even before COVID there was a growing problem with elderly patients being admitted to hospital and then not being discharged because they would not have been able to look after themselves properly.

District nurses in the UK are specially trained and can train others in the community. It baffles me what calculus the government here is using to try and find savings but cutting the number of these nurses is a false economy when one considers the cost of hospital stays. Issues such as that one and others christians need to write to their MP's about.

District nurses are NHS hidden heroes - so why are they being cut?
 
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dms1972

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I believe the church should be non-partisan when it comes to supporting political groups or its leaders.
I prefer to live in a democracy rather than a theocracy.
Time and time again, history has taught us that theocratic governments create instability and injustice, often resulting in the most obscene acts against humanity.

Following on what you said - in what seems to me one of CS Lewis's lesser known essays (Meditation on the Third Commandment) he talks about the potential perils of a Christian Party in politics. I have met people once or twice who seem to harbour the idea of such a party and think it would a good thing. Lewis is far less sanguine about the idea and in this essay explains why. The essay can be found online however I noticed the one website I found it on it is truncated and leaves out the final couple of paragraphs where he talks about the idea of a Christian Voters Society, evangelism and writing to MPs about issues.

"So it all comes down to is pestering MP's with letters?" Yes: just that. I think such pestering combines the dove and the serpent. I think it means a world where parties have to take care not to alienate Christians, instead of a world where Christians have to be 'loyal' to infidel parties.
The essay is published in these collections: Undeceptions (1971), Christian Reunion (1990) and in CS Lewis Essay Collection : Faith, Christianity, and the Church.

Here is an audio version and a podcast discussing it


EC06r -Meditation on the Third Commandment (with Allyson Wieland)
 
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If only Christians were united. We have so much talent, resources, and power when we are one. If that were to ever happen, we could address these big issues of need through our own good works. Our love would be so obvious that the world would pay attention. That would leave the politicians to fixing roads, polishing unused weapons, and dressing up for the ball.
 
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Anthony2019

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Following on what you said - in what seems to me one of CS Lewis's lesser known essays (Meditation on the Third Commandment) he talks about the potential perils of a Christian Party in politics. I have met people once or twice who seem to harbour the idea of such a party and think it would a good thing. Lewis is far less sanguine about the idea and in this essay explains why. The essay can be found online however I noticed the one website I found it on it is truncated and leaves out the final couple of paragraphs where he talks about the idea of a Christian Voters Society, evangelism and writing to MPs about issues.

"So it all comes down to is pestering MP's with letters?" Yes: just that. I think such pestering combines the dove and the serpent. I think it means a world where parties have to take care not to alienate Christians, instead of a world where Christians have to be 'loyal' to infidel parties.
The essay is published in these collections: Undeceptions (1971), Christian Reunion (1990) and in CS Lewis Essay Collection : Faith, Christianity, and the Church.

Here is an audio version and a podcast discussing it


EC06r -Meditation on the Third Commandment (with Allyson Wieland)
Thanks for sharing. I will take a look at that :)
 
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returntosender

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Which is worse, giving the baker a choice on who he chooses to serve or taking away his choice? Take his choice away in this matter will take everyone's choice eventually. Another freedom lost and it seems we are slowly moving in that direction with the new regime.
 
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The archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, wrote in an article recently that Britain has learned to live with wrongs when it should be trying to change them and that it must reset its compass, from housing to wages:

“Our compass has slipped; we’ve allowed ourselves to believe that things can’t change, that this is just the way the world is. Politics has, I think, shrunk. There’s a loss of vision about what the world could be like.”

He argues that there shouId not be a separation between the church and politics or faith and politics or, for that matter, anything and politics:

"It’s about how we inhabit the world – and everybody and every organisation and every community has a voice and a stake.”

He said that the church should have a political voice because it's at the heart of what the calling of the church is:

"Loving your neighbour is a profoundly political statement... Is there anybody who doesn’t think that it’s a scandal that there are so many homeless people on our streets? But we’ve learned to live with it. We’ve learned to accommodate things that we know are wrong, which it would be possible to do something about… If we think it’s right that everyone should have health as a matter of right, regardless of ability to pay, shouldn’t it be the same for housing and possibly for a basic wage?”

Most people are finding life very tough at the moment to with Covid, politial divison and all the inequality that's around in almost every area of life. Do do you think that as a church we need to make Christianity more relevant to people's lives by giving a vision of hope through speaking out more on these issues and centring on loving your neighbour?
the political voice is the people. so yes, it is better for the church to have a stronger political voice but its strength is about how saturated its values are within the people rather than the politicians. politicians follow the votes so if it's an unpopular idea or value system they aren't going to represent it because it risks political suicide. so if you want to change the political voice you need to start at the people, not the system. it is a bottom-up approach. You will also find this is a biblical principle as well. Jesus did not come to speak the gospel to the rich and powerful. He spoke the gospel to the commoner and by 4th century Christianity was the de facto state religion. So if you want to influence the top, start at the bottom. We are commissioned to spread the gospel anyway and this accomplishes the same product that if we can effectively spread the gospel that a discipleship-making movement happens it will transform the values of society so that those on top start to represent those values as they will be the majority.
 
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It should make a stand, absolutely.

But it should not be in political dealings and attitudes but rather the spiritual battles that take place behind all sides of politics.

No side is pure and rather than excuse the lesser of evils.... accountability should be demanded, if not by the people of a nation, at the very least by those claiming Christ.... no matter the side of the political isle.

Wrong is wrong, regardless if you like the leader or agree with their "side". Weed out the wolves in sheeps clothing out of leadership roles on both sides. Thise that claim to lead a people, but feast of them instead.

If one is loud standing in agreement with Christ. Then, yes. The church should be louder.

If the "church" is rather an individual screaming about theur opinion..... sometimes opinions should be kept to yourself.
 
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