Was the OT totally in reference to God the Father?

prodromos

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He resurrected which is why the crucifix is a symbol of Antichrist, glorifying how He died rather than celebrating His rising.
This is complete nonsense. We remember and celebrate every aspect of Christ's incarnation, and especially His death and subsequent resurrection. There is no resurection of Christ without Him dying first, so denying the cross, even implicitly,, casts doubt on His resurection.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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This is why Orthodox processional cross have both an icon of the crucifixion AND an icon of the harrowing of hell (the Orthodox icon of Pascha) where Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out of the tombs.
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prodromos

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Worth pointing out that on an Orthodox crucifix, Christ is depicted as standing on the cross even though He is dead. He isn't hanging limply by His arms as though defeated, but rather He is standing because He is victorious over death.
 
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Thomas White

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That is true. However Jesus did not stay dead. He resurrected which is why the crucifix is a symbol of Antichrist, glorifying how He died rather than celebrating His rising. Jesus did not stay on the cross. He died for our sins, but He rose for our afterlife and THAT is the good news! We should stop telling our kids that Jesus died for our sins. Jesus lives! Jesus Rose! Glory to the Son of the Almighty God forever and ever.

Jesus dying for our sins is the salvation. He took the punishment for our sin. It's by His blood that we are saved. A crucifix is a reminder of that. How could it possibly be the tool of the Antichrist?
 
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Jaxxi

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This is complete nonsense. We remember and celebrate every aspect of Christ's incarnation, and especially His death and subsequent resurrection. There is no resurection of Christ without Him dying first, so denying the cross, even implicitly,, casts doubt on His resurection.
That is a good point but it is not complete nonsense. It's just saying that the symbol of the crucifix is Antichrist. Like the movie The Passion of the Christ. This movie showed horrific scenes of a bloody beaten Jesus and then it ended with no resurrection! That movie is horrible in that it stops before the best part! The crucifix is not honoring the best part. Humans are killed all the time. Everyone dies. That is part of life. Resurrecting is the difference. Only One could do that like He did. This is not to knock you if you have a crucifix in your house. Symbols can be different things to different people.
 
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Jaxxi

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Jesus dying for our sins is the salvation. He took the punishment for our sin. It's by His blood that we are saved. A crucifix is a reminder of that. How could it possibly be the tool of the Antichrist?
No one said it was a tool. What I said is that it glorifies His death rather than His rising. Of course He had to die to rise, but we all die. That is normal. Resurrecting like He did is not normal.
 
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Jaxxi

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Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold the phone. This is absolutely and 100% not true. The crucifix is a symbol of Christ--His atoning passion and death for the sins of the world. The crucifix reminds of exactly what our Lord did for us.

His death and resurrection are not in competition with one another; they are together the work of Christ for us to save us.

Who told you that a crucifix is a symbol of Antichrist? Because whoever told you that is either deeply misguided, or else a liar and a blasphemer.



Of course He didn't remain on the cross, He was taken down, laid in a tomb--buried. And then on the third day rose again.

No Christian believes Jesus stayed on the cross. None.

And also, this:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1 Corinthians 1:18

"For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." - 1 Corinthians 2:2

"But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." - Galatians 6:14

Our Lord Jesus Christ did die for us, and that is absolutely the message which we preach, that is the Gospel we proclaim to the world, the word of God which we hear and confess.

I don't understand this hostility toward something so utterly foundational to who we are as Christians.

We confess and preach that Jesus Christ suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, descended into hell, and then raised up on the third day, ascended into heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

That's our faith, that's our message, that's our confession.

-CryptoLutheran
It is not hostility. Did you see the movie "The passion of the Christ"? Did you like it? It ends after Jesus is beaten and bloodied and dies on the cross without showing the Resurrection. The crucifix is like that movie. It gives glory to the fact that they killed Him. We know what happens next, but they didn't know what was to happen. Evil killed Him. He suffered. The crucifix is a reminder that He suffered. I appreciate what He did too much to glorify it with a symbol of it. Yeah, I know how He died but He rose! He lives! Here is my point. Which one do you think represents Christ better? Which one glorifies Him?
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Jaxxi

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This is why Orthodox processional cross have both an icon of the crucifixion AND an icon of the harrowing of hell (the Orthodox icon of Pascha) where Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out of the tombs.
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I like that! That is much better. If they are going to show it, show it all! I appreciate the cross itself don't get me wrong, I had just seen somewhere that the crucifix focuses on His suffering and not His rising and that made sense to me. I love Jesus so much- I hate to think of Him suffering on that cross.
 
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Jaxxi

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Worth pointing out that on an Orthodox crucifix, Christ is depicted as standing on the cross even though He is dead. He isn't hanging limply by His arms as though defeated, but rather He is standing because He is victorious over death.
I like that much better. That sounds good to me. Thank you
 
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The Liturgist

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I like that much better. That sounds good to me. Thank you

I can personally vouch for what @prodromos says, furthermore, in matters of doctrine. He, @GreekOrthodox and @ViaCrucis are consistently the members of the forum I agree with the most when it comes to any doctrinal question. We also have some very good Anglican members, but some of them have been less active of late.
 
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The Liturgist

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I like that! That is much better. If they are going to show it, show it all! I appreciate the cross itself don't get me wrong, I had just seen somewhere that the crucifix focuses on His suffering and not His rising and that made sense to me. I love Jesus so much- I hate to think of Him suffering on that cross.

Indeed, and the beauty of the Eastern Orthodox crucifixes, as you can see, is they acknowledge his suffering but regard it as a supreme triumph, and they also acknowledge His Resurrection. He was victorious on the Cross, having gone to it voluntarily so that he could trample down death by death, and therefore death is swallowed up in victory!
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way @Jaxxi , in every church of the denomination that @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox belong to, you will hear on Easter Sunday the Paschal Homily of John Chrysostom, which was first preached in the fourth century, and which I think remains the best sermon ever preached in the Christian church, so much so that I use it myself on Easter:

If anyone is devout and a lover of God, let him enjoy this beautiful and radiant festival.
If anyone is a wise servant, let him, rejoicing, enter into the joy of his Lord.
If anyone has wearied himself in fasting, let him now receive his recompense.
If anyone has labored from the first hour, let him today receive his just reward. If anyone has come at the third hour, with thanksgiving let him keep the feast. If anyone has arrived at the sixth hour, let him have no misgivings; for he shall suffer no loss. If anyone has delayed until the ninth hour, let him draw near without hesitation. If anyone has arrived even at the eleventh hour, let him not fear on account of his delay. For the Master is gracious and receives the last, even as the first; he gives rest to him that comes at the eleventh hour, just as to him who has labored from the first. He has mercy upon the last and cares for the first; to the one he gives, and to the other he is gracious. He both honors the work and praises the intention.
Enter all of you, therefore, into the joy of our Lord, and, whether first or last, receive your reward. O rich and poor, one with another, dance for joy! O you ascetics and you negligent, celebrate the day! You that have fasted and you that have disregarded the fast, rejoice today! The table is rich-laden; feast royally, all of you! The calf is fatted; let no one go forth hungry!
Let all partake of the feast of faith. Let all receive the riches of goodness.
Let no one lament his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed.
Let no one mourn his transgressions, for pardon has dawned from the grave.
Let no one fear death, for the Saviour's death has set us free.
He that was taken by death has annihilated it! He descended into hades and took hades captive! He embittered it when it tasted his flesh! And anticipating this Isaiah exclaimed, "Hades was embittered when it encountered thee in the lower regions." It was embittered, for it was abolished! It was embittered, for it was mocked! It was embittered, for it was purged! It was embittered, for it was despoiled! It was embittered, for it was bound in chains!
It took a body and, face to face, met God! It took earth and encountered heaven! It took what it saw but crumbled before what it had not seen!
"O death, where is thy sting? O hades, where is thy victory?"
Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!
Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen!
Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is risen, and life reigns!
Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in a tomb!
For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the First-fruits of them that slept.
To him be glory and might unto ages of ages. Amen.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is not hostility. Did you see the movie "The passion of the Christ"? Did you like it? It ends after Jesus is beaten and bloodied and dies on the cross without showing the Resurrection. The crucifix is like that movie. It gives glory to the fact that they killed Him. We know what happens next, but they didn't know what was to happen. Evil killed Him. He suffered. The crucifix is a reminder that He suffered. I appreciate what He did too much to glorify it with a symbol of it. Yeah, I know how He died but He rose! He lives! Here is my point. Which one do you think represents Christ better? Which one glorifies Him?View attachment 295833 View attachment 295834

Of these two images, the second image definitely glorifies Christ more because the first image shows Him purely as a victim and ignores His Victory on the Cross. The image is bloody and carnal, and also depicts wounds on our Lord that he may or may not have received.

It’s entirely unlike the Orthodox crucifixes which as you can see are beautiful.

Also, I do agree with your criticism of The Passion of the Christ. In failing to show the Resurrection of Jesus, and His ascension, it misses the point. It would have been so much better a film had it depicted, with the same actor, the burial of Christ, the discovery of the empty tomb, Christ having risen from the grave, and his interactions with His disciples.
 
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prodromos

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prodromos

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By the way @Jaxxi , in every church of the denomination that @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox belong to, you will hear on Easter Sunday the Paschal Homily of John Chrysostom, which was first preached in the fourth century, and which I think remains the best sermon ever preached in the Christian church, so much so that I use it myself on Easter:
Is this at around 3am in your Church like it is in ours? :D
 
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The Liturgist

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Is this at around 3am in your Church like it is in ours? :D

So as you know, some Orthodox churches start the Paschal liturgy well before midnight for safety reasons, and that’s liturgically canonical, because technically, liturgically speaking, Pascha, or Easter Sunday as it is known in the Occident* starts in the Byzantine church during the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, the service with the reading of the Prophecies during which Catechumens were traditionally baptized, and indeed as I expect you are well aware, this fact is signified by the removal in Russian Orthodox churches of black paraments and the setting up of white paraments, and likewise a change from black to white vestments (some Russian Orthodox churches will also use red vestments, but I’ve only heard of them doing that during the Vigil, and I personally haven’t seen it; I also know some ROCOR priests who regard it as a weird Moscow Patriarch innovation, but I haven’t been able to verify that at all, and the abbreviated Typikon/liturgical guide in my library which advises doing it I think was by a ROCOR author; I will look into it if this is of interest to you).

So owing to conditions in the city in which I minister, which is some distance from my residence in Las Vegas,, which is a town that historically is safe 24 hours a day, or at least it was, before the pandemic; now, in the wee hours it has become spooky, but the city in which I do a vigil service and the people who I minister it to are such that I start the service earlier in the evening. And if I had started at midnight I would have gotten to the Paschal homily well before 3 AM. But this is not by my choice; rather, it has to do with what I can get my congregation to accept at present. And it should be noted that this ministry is in a city where conditions are unpleasant, and the people do have problems, but my dream is that some day, the congregation will record a history like that of Fr. Peter Gilquist, memory eternal, and will be reading the Paschal Homily at 3 AM following a suitably long service.

I use it again during the day on Pascha, but I do actually respect the one liturgy per altar per day rule of the Byzantine Rite; the specific reason, aside from pastoral necessity, that I do two Eucharistic services, includes a feeling that it would be wrong to celebrate a service on Easter Morning without the Eucharist; in my youth, going to a liturgical Protestant church that did the Eucharist monthly, it seldom happened on Easter Sunday, in fact I can’t remember it happening then, ever, and also, more importantly, the fact that the Syriac Orthodox Church does both a Paschal Vigil and Divine Liturgy at midnight and then a second Divine Liturgy, or Qurbono Qadisho in Syriac, during the day.

If I had been unable to find an ancient Orthodox church that did have two services, I would not do them, because the case the Roman church makes for allowing priests to serve multiple masses, and for multiple masses to be served on the same altar, on the same liturgical day, is week, in my opinion.
 
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The Liturgist

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By the way @prodromos if I ever am under the jurisdiction of a Byzantine Rite bishop, I will beg and plead for him to let me use the Anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of St. James for the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the morning of Holy Saturday, for two reasons: the cherubic hymn matches, and since the main dissimilarity between the Divine Liturgy of St. James and those of St. Basil and St. Gregory concerns the synaxis, and since it is a vesperal divine liturgy with an entirely different synaxis anyway, there would be no risk of accidentally scandalizing anyone, since the difference between the two liturgies at that point would be reduced to those prayers said privately by the priest.

The same is also true of the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark; the 1890 recension of it from the Patriarchate of Alexandria is such that the only differences between it and the other liturgies exist in the prayers said by the priest. And this is also true of the Divine Liturgy of St. Peter; those two liturgies were found, together with that of St. James (which does have a difference other than in what the priest says, in that the synaxis is somewhat different, as noted below), in a liturgikon on Mount Athos, and Fr. Aidan Keller* had translations of them on his website.

As it is, by the way, there are two common myths about the Liturgy of St. James, one being that it requires 13 priests, when that is just one recension of the text, and the other one being that it has to be celebrated versus populum in front of the iconostasis and communion given in the hand; the latter dates from yet another recension which was popularized by some modernists and which I think should be rejected as innovative. The Greek Orthodox parish of St. John the Baptist in Las Vegas does the Divine Liturgy of St. James annually on his feast day, and when they do it, they celebrate it behind the iconostasis, ad orientem, and they distribute the Eucharist normally (or at least they did, before Covid-19).

*By the way, the Trebniks he designed for the Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, which can still be downloaded from the archived version of his site, are the most beautiful I’ve seen.
 
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Randy777

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I wouldn't state totally.
This was attributed to Jesus.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

But for the most part the writer of Hebrews gives credit to the Father.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

The Father sent Jesus.
Jesus=>Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.
 
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