Broken Theology?

Jake Arsenal · Mar 5, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Hey Jake,

So, what do you think verse 13 means for us Christians to do with the "wicked person"?

At this time, I only know what I have been taught that it means(avoidance, ostracism, excommunication, etc.), but I'm not convinced that what I have been taught is correct. I would like to know what other believers think these Scriptures mean. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will lead someone reading this to share more Scripture which will shed light on this discussion.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Here is my simplistic interpretation.

God does not, nor will not allow, a human's life on earth to end before their appointed time.

Before that time, everyone has the option of Faith - Salvation.

God is not willing that any should 'perish'(eternal death) but when a person insists on it, God is not going to force them otherwise.

The people you read that God commanded Israel to destroy all insisted on rejecting God.

The key thing to remember is that this life is a 'vapor', it's almost as though it does not exist in the expanse of eternity.

For someone to die here, lose their earthly life, is minuscule in the grand scheme of things.

I generally agree with your statements, but this life is our only chance to believe and be redeemed(as far as I know[1 Corinthians 5:5 may have further implications I have not considered]). Therefore, our actions in this life are possibly(probably) the most important actions we will ever make.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
At this time, I only know what I have been taught that it means(avoidance, ostracism, excommunication, etc.), but I'm not convinced that what I have been taught is correct. I would like to know what other believers think these Scriptures mean. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will lead someone reading this to share more Scripture which will shed light on this discussion.

Actually, I think you've been instructed correctly by whomever previously gave you instruction. But, if you have questions, it's always good to do more collaborative exegesis and hermeneutics on the meaning of Scripture so more clarification can come about, if possible.

As for verse 13, the first thing we might notice here is that Paul actually quotes a verse from the Old Testament. Did your previous teachers already point this out to you?

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
I generally agree with your statements, but this life is our only chance to believe and be redeemed(as far as I know[1 Corinthians 5:5 may have further implications I have not considered]). Therefore, our actions in this life are possibly(probably) the most important actions we will ever make.

Right, which is why God is not going to allow our death before that happens.

What I am saying is that God was not having Israel going out and killing people and effectively sentencing them to eternity in hell without first giving them the opportunity for salvation.

Hanging by a Thread · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Lol. Can anyone explain to me why a man who obliterated most of God's commandments gets to be considered a man after God's own heart? And an ancestor via result of adulterous activity, no less? If we're to follow David and Solomon's example it would simply mean we can do whatever the heck we want. And if we're as lucky as David and Solomon, if God ever should get angry at our actions, he won't punish us directly. He'll reserve that for future generation.
Makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Hanging by a Thread said:
Lol. Can anyone explain to me why a man who obliterated most of God's commandments gets to be considered a man after God's own heart? And an ancestor via result of adulterous activity, no less? If we're to follow David and Solomon's example it would simply mean we can do whatever the heck we want. And if we're as lucky as David and Solomon, if God ever should get angry at our actions, he won't punish us directly. He'll reserve that for future generation.
Makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Because his focus was on the right thing.

If you want to know what that is, then read his psalms.

Hanging by a Thread · Mar 5, 2021

Dave L said:
We hate our enemies today as well. But instead of killing them we love them. It doesn't say "like" your enemies.

So we hate and love our enemies at the same time, then? Seems like those two words are the exact opposite of each other. Like black and white. If you mix black and white together like that you get grey. Which could be the color of "like" in this analogy. But you discarded the word "like" so I dunno where to go from here....

Hanging by a Thread · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Because his focus was on the right thing.

If you want to know what that is, then read his psalms.

Where was his focus when he was sleeping with another man's wife. Or when he was sleeping with one of his mistresses? Or when he had his new girlfriend's husband killed. Which psalm covers this?
I'm not throwing David or Solomon under the bus. I'm just wondering why we're supposed to consider ourselves such heinous sinners who deserve to go to hell while these two guys are considered biblical heroes.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 5, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Right, which is why God is not going to allow our death before that happens.

What I am saying is that God was not having Israel going out and killing people and effectively sentencing them to eternity in hell without first giving them the opportunity for salvation.

Perhaps that is what God meant when He said, "the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

2PhiloVoid said:
Actually, I think you've been instructed correctly by whomever previously gave you instruction.

Whether I have been instructed correctly or not, I must prove all things and hold fast that which is good.

Nathan@work · Mar 5, 2021

Hanging by a Thread said:
Where was his focus when he was sleeping with another man's wife. Or when he was sleeping with one of his mistresses? Or when he had his new girlfriend's husband killed. Which psalm covers this?
I'm not throwing David or Solomon under the bus. I'm just wondering why we're supposed to consider ourselves such heinous sinners who deserve to go to hell while these two guys are considered biblical heroes.

Did they consider themselves heros?

How do you know that 1000 years from now(if Jesus has not returned) someone wont call you a hero?

2PhiloVoid · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
Whether I have been instructed correctly or not, I must prove all things and hold fast that which is good.

That's true! The interesting thing is that Paul cites the verse from the Old Testament for his pattern of correction to the sinning man. But then we can look at 2 Corinthians to see what Paul says about bringing back 'corrected' brethren back into the Church ...

... obviously, to bring them back into the Church and restore them to fellowship means they weren't dead.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 5, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
As for verse 13, the first thing we might notice here is that Paul actually quotes a verse from the Old Testament. Did your previous teachers already point this out to you?

No one has ever pointed this out to me. Thank you for bringing this to light. Paul is referencing Deuteronomy 13:5, 17:7, 17:12, 19:19, 21:21, 22:21, 22:24, 24:7 "so shalt thou put evil away from among you." I did not know that there was anything like this in the New Testament.
Thank you.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
No one has ever pointed this out to me. Thank you for bringing this to light. Paul is referencing Deuteronomy 13:5, 17:7, 17:12, 19:19, 21:21, 22:21, 22:24, 24:7 "so shalt thou put evil away from among you." I did not know that there was anything like this in the New Testament.
Thank you.

You're welcome. Just make sure to add in the context that Paul adds in with the second letter to the same Corinthian church. The Law is a pattern; but Paul believes that Jesus fulfilled the penalty so we Christians only use the O.T. as a pattern for the Law upon our own hearts, and with the mercy of Christ, we apply discipline within the Church, but without the death penalty.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 5, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
That's true! The interesting thing is that Paul cites the verse from the Old Testament for his pattern of correction to the sinning man. But then we can look at 2 Corinthians to see what Paul says about bringing back 'corrected' brethren back into the Church ...

... obviously, to bring them back into the Church and restore them to fellowship means they weren't dead.

Deuteronomy 17
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

2 Corinthians 13
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare

1 Corinthians 5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,(ESV - 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.)

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 5, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
Deuteronomy 17
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

2 Corinthians 13
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare

1 Corinthians 5
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,(ESV - 3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.)

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Those are some good contextual coordinations, but I'd add to them the following quote from 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 (This is what I had in mind earlier ... )

5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

Aussie Pete · Mar 6, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
I have included an image. Can someone explain to me why a man after God's own heart did not love his enemies?

1 Samuel 13:14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Different covenant. Israel was commanded to drive out the nations that occupied the promised land. When you read the kind of people they were, you will know why. Israel used force. That is not the way of the body of Christ as it seeks the kingdom of God. Lord Jesus never commanded an army, never shed blood, never took up weapons and never encouraged His followers to kill on His behalf.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 8, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
Lord Jesus never commanded an army, never shed blood, never took up weapons and never encouraged His followers to kill on His behalf.

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

A scourge is a weapon used to inflict severe punishment and is very likely to draw blood.

Peter attempted to stop the arrest of Jesus with a sword and Jesus chastised him, but Jesus encouraged the disciples to obtain swords. He did not intend for His disciples to kill on His behalf, but one wonders about the purpose of the swords.

Aussie Pete · Mar 8, 2021

Jake Arsenal said:
John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

A scourge is a weapon used to inflict severe punishment and is very likely to draw blood.

Peter attempted to stop the arrest of Jesus with a sword and Jesus chastised him, but Jesus encouraged the disciples to obtain swords. He did not intend for His disciples to kill on His behalf, but one wonders about the purpose of the swords.

I'm not saying that Jesus was the "meek and mild" softie portrayed all too often. I don't know why He told his disciples to get a sword. He did say that one was enough. My take is that He wanted to show His disciples the futility of violence. That's just a thought, not a divine revelation.

The money changers could flee. When the Romans used the scourge (and yes, a vicious form of punishment), the victim was tied to a post. There was no way of escaping. It is unlikely that the scourge that Jesus used was of the Roman type. Romans inserted bits of bone and pottery shards to make it more damaging. I don't know that Jesus could have done that with the time and materials that He had.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 9, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
I'm not saying that Jesus was the "meek and mild" softie portrayed all too often. I don't know why He told his disciples to get a sword. He did say that one was enough. My take is that He wanted to show His disciples the futility of violence. That's just a thought, not a divine revelation.

My issue with that interpretation goes back to my original question about violence; how can the unchanging God demand violence at certain times yet seek to show the futility of violence at other times? I would have to point out Jesus' rebuke when asked why His disciples don't wash their hands: He called them out for not executing children that revile their parents!

(ESV)Mark 7:9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)— 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

The "different covenant" answer is lacking because a change in covenant cannot explain a change in intent or character. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever; He does not change.

Jake Arsenal · Mar 9, 2021

I want to start by clarifying that I am not advocating for violence of any kind. My purpose here is to gain a better knowledge of the character of God. I start with the premise that God is unchanging(Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19, James 1:17, Hebrews 13:8, John 1:1, Psalm 33:11, Hebrews 7:21, John 8:58, etc.)

Dave L said:
How can you love enemies and kill them? Where do you see this in the New Testament? Any examples of believers doing this besides Peter using the sword at Christ's rebuke?

You asked three questions here, so I will address each one individually.

Dave L said:
How can you love enemies and kill them?

Killing someone in self-defense or in defense of others would not be an act of hatred but rather of protection. Psalm 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

Dave L said:
Where do you see this in the New Testament?

I often see this question used with the assumption that the Old Testament does not apply. It is not possible for the New Testament to contradict the Old Testament; every teaching in the NT has roots in the OT. Freedom from the Law does not abolish the law.

Psalm 89:34 I will not violate my covenant or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Hebrews 6:17-18 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Dave L said:
Any examples of believers doing this besides Peter using the sword at Christ's rebuke?

All I have are the words of our Lord on the night that He was betrayed(the purpose of which I do not know): Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Dave L said:
Jesus forbids violent self-defense. You cannot expect him to save you if you reject his teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. John says if you do not have his doctrine, you do not have God.

Can you show me where He said this?

The Sermon on the Mount is contained in Matthew 5-7, but I cannot find anything resembling what you say here. The closest I can find is Jesus quoting the Commandment against murder and expounding upon it to show "That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment"(Matthew 5:22).

Broken Theology?

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