Universal Resurrection

Spiritual Jew

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Absolutely not!
1 Cor 15 is a sequence of events and verses 50-56 prophecy about the final Judgment; after the Millennium.
We have very good descriptions of what happens at the Return of Jesus. The prophecies of 1 Corinthians 15:24-56 do not relate to the Return. They are all about the GWT Judgment at the end of the 7000 year decreed time of God's plan for mankind. [Note esp: verse 24]
I couldn't disagree more with your claim that 1 Cor 15:24-56 does not relate to Christ's return.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What is the difference between those who are resurrected "at His coming" and those raised "at the last trump"? There is no difference because both passages are referring to the same group, which are those who Paul calls "the dead in Christ" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. It simply makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is speaking of a different event than 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.
 
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keras

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I couldn't disagree more with your claim that 1 Cor 15:24-56 does not relate to Christ's return.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
We are plainly and irrefutably told which people in Christ will be raised at the Return of Jesus.
Revelation 20:4...the martyrs killed by the 'beast' during his world control of 42 months.
And it does NOT say they become immortal.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The last trumpet will be The Last Trumpet call for all the dead to rise and stand before God on His Great White Throne.
THEN the Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality.

The theory of people becoming immortal before that final Judgment, is false and cannot happen.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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We are plainly and irrefutably told which people in Christ will be raised at the Return of Jesus.
Revelation 20:4...the martyrs killed by the 'beast' during his world control of 42 months.
And it does NOT say they become immortal.
Irrefutably? LOL. Please. It's been refuted many times.

If your interpretation was true then it would make what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 complete nonsense because he makes it very clear in that passage that the order of bodily resurrections (unto bodily immortality) is Christ first and then those who are Christ's at His coming.

Your interpretation of Revelation 20:4 contradicts passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 while mine does not. Passages like those make it very clear that all of the dead in Christ will be raised at His return, so you need to adjust your understanding of Revelation 20 accordingly.

The last trumpet will be The Last Trumpet call for all the dead to rise and stand before God on His Great White Throne.
THEN the Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality.

The theory of people becoming immortal before that final Judgment, is false and cannot happen.
Except that it will because Paul indicated that the dead in Christ will be raised and changed to be immortal when Christ returns at the last trumpet. The final judgment will occur very shortly thereafter.
 
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sovereigngrace

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We are plainly and irrefutably told which people in Christ will be raised at the Return of Jesus.
Revelation 20:4...the martyrs killed by the 'beast' during his world control of 42 months.
And it does NOT say they become immortal.

The last trumpet will be The Last Trumpet call for all the dead to rise and stand before God on His Great White Throne.
THEN the Book of Life will be opened and those whose names are found in it will receive immortality.

The theory of people becoming immortal before that final Judgment, is false and cannot happen.

There is nothing "irrefutably" about theories that contradict repeated and clear Scripture. You are doctoring the sacred text to fit your mistaken beliefs.

The elect are changed at the second coming/last trumpet into glorified existence. Multiple Scripture supports that. Your fight is clearly with God's Word.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Interestingly, this Greek word allasso used to describe the glorification of the earth in Hebrews 1:10-12 is also used to describe the glorification of the elect here.

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man’s access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom.

This changeover from “this present evil age” blighted with “the bondage of corruption” to the bliss and splendor of “incorruption” and “the glory which shall be revealed in us” doesn’t happen until the return of Christ. The transition from this temporal evil age to the new perfect eternal age happens at Christ’s return. Scripture show this glorious climatic event will see the glorification of God’s people and the glorification of this earth. The means by which God removes corruption from this earth at the end is by fire. People need to be glorified in order to equip them to populate the new perfected environment.

Mortality cannot possess it. The wicked cannot possess it. Premil has billions of both polluting the new earth.

Romans 8:19-23 continues, “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (phthora or decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

There is a direct connection between the liberation of “creation” and the liberation of the “sons of God.” Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will simultaneously be delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.” The day of redemption is shown throughout Scripture to be the second coming of Christ. It is there is that man experiences the final part of redemption – the redemption of his body.

Jesus said in Luke 21:26-28, 36: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh … Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall (or mello or hereafter) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Luke 21 shows us what occurs at the climactic future coming of Christ. Not only will creation be glorified, the righteous will also experience the same. This is the moment when man and creation is simultaneously perfected. This is shown to be the realization of the final aspect of redemption. Various clear and repeated Scripture prove when the day of redemption is.

Ephesians 1:13-14 assures us that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 4:30 similarly states, ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

That day is the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is here described as “that Holy Spirit of promise.” The word “earnest” here relates to a security down payment. It is taken from the Greek word arrhabon, which is from a Hebrew origin [meaning a pledge in advance as security for the rest. You have heard of earnest money. ‘It is a portion of something, given or done in advance as a promise of the remainder’. This seal is active until the time when Jesus comes and we shall be physically redeemed.

Colossians 3:4 tells us: When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7&10 declares: the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe.”

We shall indeed be changed into the image of the glorified Christ upon His return. 1 Corinthians 15:49 confirms: we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

Philippians 3:18-21 says, we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall metaschematizo (or) change our vile body, that it may be summorphos (or) fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”

Peter also looked forward by faith to an age approaching as an age when he will be a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed (or mello) hereafter) (1 Peter 5:1). He too was talking about resurrection day, when Jesus comes.

John tells us in I John 3:1: when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

These passages describe the final act of redemption that occurs when Jesus returns. God’s people will then no longer suffer from any spiritual lack or inability. This will be a day when every last evidence and remembrance of sin, rebellion and pride will be eliminated.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 records: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is an irrefutable description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all insurrection. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”). This is the event when the elect are glorified in order to equip them to inherit the new perfect arrangement. This involves them being given new glorified bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption
 
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ewq1938

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But NOT in the Bible.
What about the Seven Bowls, they come after the 7th Trumpet.

Nothing in the Bible says that immortality is given to anyone before the Book of Life is opened. Which will be after the Millennium.
'Most scholars' are wrong about end times understanding. Jesus told us this would be the case. Matthew 11:25 and Isaiah 42:18-20

This is still wrong. The bible does say immortality comes at the second coming. I have already proven that.
 
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ewq1938

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Revelation 20:4-5 does not say those resurrected martyrs will become immortal. It says they will be brought back to life; as Lazarus was.
Verse 5 says they can die again. [as Lazarus did]

Verse 5 does not say they can die again. The fact that the second death has no power over those of the first resurrection means they are immortal plus the tern used for them living is the same living Christ used of his own living after he resurrected.
 
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Timtofly

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I'm not aware of any eschatological view that has Christ already on earth before the second coming. That doesn't even make any sense.
Matthew 24:29-31

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.

30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.
31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 6th Seal happens before the 7 Trumpets.

They will see the Son of Man. Then Jesus Christ on earth will send out the 7 Trumpets. By the time the 7th Trumpet sounds it will all be over.
 
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keras

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Irrefutably? LOL. Please. It's been refuted many times.
This is still wrong. The bible does say immortality comes at the second coming. I have already proven that.
There is nothing "irrefutably" about theories that contradict repeated and clear Scripture. You are doctoring the sacred text to fit your mistaken beliefs.
You are all confused and mistaken.
Revelation 20:4 is crystal clear: .....I saw the souls of those, who for the sake of God's Word had been beheaded, Those who had not worshipped the 'beast' and its image, or received it mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

ONLY the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-8, will be raised back to life at Jesus' Return.

They are not yet given immortality.

No other Bible prophecy contradicts these truths.
 
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ewq1938

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ONLY the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-8, will be raised back to life at Jesus' Return.

They are not yet given immortality.

They aren't the only ones who resurrect at that timeframe, and yes, they are all raised with immortality. Both have already been proven, by myself and others.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are all confused and mistaken.
Revelation 20:4 is crystal clear: .....I saw the souls of those, who for the sake of God's Word had been beheaded, Those who had not worshipped the 'beast' and its image, or received it mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

ONLY the martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', Revelation 13:5-8, will be raised back to life at Jesus' Return.

They are not yet given immortality.

No other Bible prophecy contradicts these truths.

You avoid so much Scripture that forbids your error. Your avoidance is testimony to that that your theology cannot abide the truth of God's Word.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Matthew 24:29-31

29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,

the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.


30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.
31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar; and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The 6th Seal happens before the 7 Trumpets.

They will see the Son of Man. Then Jesus Christ on earth will send out the 7 Trumpets. By the time the 7th Trumpet sounds it will all be over.

You fail to see the recaps. What results is mistaken.
 
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keras

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They aren't the only ones who resurrect at that timeframe, and yes, they are all raised with immortality. Both have already been proven, by myself and others.
Who? Paul just says:........... at His coming, those who belong to Christ. 1 Cor 15:23 NOT everyone, only the GT martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4

Why? Immortality is given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life, which is opened after the Millennium. It isn't logical or scriptural, Isaiah 65:20, for immortal humans to be present during the Millennium.
 
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ewq1938

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Who? Paul just says:........... at His coming, those who belong to Christ. 1 Cor 15:23 NOT everyone, only the GT martyrs, as per Revelation 20:4

You just contradicted yourself "at His coming, those who belong to Christ" is not only some who belong to Christ.


Why? Immortality is given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life, which is opened after the Millennium.

No, immortality is given at the first judgement and resurrection. Again, that has already been proven by myself and others.

It isn't logical or scriptural, Isaiah 65:20, for immortal humans to be present during the Millennium.

Isaiah 65:20 is not related to the Millennium of Revelation 20.
 
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Timtofly

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They aren't the only ones who resurrect at that timeframe, and yes, they are all raised with immortality. Both have already been proven, by myself and others.
Paul in this verse is speaking about the 2 types of resurrection, first and second:

53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.

They are types, not time periods.

The physical changes from corruptible to incorruptible. That is the physical body of the soul. The spirit is the second type, and that is being clothed with our spirit, immortality.

You all are stuck in Satan's Greek mythology about what it means to be mortal and immortal, or godless and like God. We are not like God, because we are separated from our spirit. God sends us the Holy Spirit in exchange for our spirit. Being glorified is the second birth, resurrection, change type. It is putting on the robe of white typology in God's Word. That is the 5th Seal about the church under the alter, in Paradise. Under the alter is figurative of being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the 5th Seal is opened. Those martyred represents the church from Abel to the last soul in Paradise to that point. The majority of the church have been martyred but they are not the only part of the church that is glorified.

No human has on a robe of white. The Second Death is the destruction of our spirit as a demon in the Lake of Fire. There is no "resurrection" of the spirit that is the only second resurrection.

You all are wrong because you think first implies a second time. There was a first resurrection at the Cross. All those in Christ at physical corruptible death are raised when the soul immediately enters a permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. That is an ongoing first resurrection. The other first resurrection is in Revelation 20:4 for those whose souls are carried by an angel through time during the final harvest, called the tribulation, to the first day of the Millennium. There is no first resurrection at the GWT. You call that a second resurrection any ways. It is neither. Dead souls stand before God dead. Then their dead spirit is cast into the Lake of Fire. If you claim their dead corruptible bodies are cast into the Lake of Fire, that is fine. They do not get incorruptible permanent sin free physical bodies to enjoy the Lake of Fire sin free. They are dead and remain dead.

We are right now souls in dead corruptible flesh. We need a first resurrection to get into a sin free incorruptible body, or as Paul claims a change of bodies. The Second birth, death, resurrection, life is of the spirit. A robe of white bright light that goes on as an outer garment over the physical incorruptible permanent body. We are missing that part of the image of God, and it is not a light switch that just turns on.

53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality.

The spirit is the outer clothing of immortality.

The spirit and body are not literal garments. That is the figurative way Paul and John gives us how the souls belongs inside of a physical body and inside a spiritual body. Our spirit is not within us. Our spirit will one day wrap around us like a garment. A demon is a spirit that can no longer do that. It has lost all light and is dark, and can only possess a body internally.

So those who claim the GWT is a Resurrection of any kind, deny the Resurrection at the Cross. They deny an ongoing Resurrection of those in Christ. They deny there is a post tribulation Resurrection to restore humanity on earth for 1000 years, prior to the GWT event. Those awaiting the GWT are only dead souls, with dead bodies, and dead spirits.

The only ones who are changed in mid air at the Second Coming have dead bodies and those bodies are flesh and blood of Adam and cannot enter Paradise. They have to change around the soul, instead of the soul being transported by an angel.
 
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Timtofly

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You fail to see the recaps. What results is mistaken.
Since recaps is a human invention, it is like an airplane that does not fly. An airplane can get you from one continent to another, but can not get you to Paradise.

You still cannot prove historically any of the recaps and how they fit history. Recap does seem to be a beautiful 777 Boeing, but they keep crashing.
 
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DavidPT

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Just because a certain group of people isn't specifically mentioned within a certain passage doesn't mean the event described in that passage can't have anything to do with them.

For example, we know that Christ will take vengeance on His enemies when He comes (2 Thess 1:7-10), but there's no mention of that in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17. Should we draw conclusions from 1 Thess 4:13-17 that Christ won't be dealing at all with His enemies when He comes just because they are not mentioned in that passage that relates to His second coming?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

When else could the above passage be fulfilled for those who are still alive when Revelation 20:9 occurs except for at the GWTJ? There would be no other time for that to occur. So, there's no basis for thinking that people who hadn't died won't be there at the GWTJ just because they are not specifically mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15.

Though I don't disagree with some of your arguments, such as what you argued in the 2nd paragraph, in Revelation 20:12-15 it describes everyone at that resurrection as the dead, which I take to mean the dead that have been resurrected bodily. How does anyone that gets raptured, for example, somehow then die in order to be raised with the dead? How can there be one single person at the GWTJ that hasn't been bodily resurrected from the dead? Every group mentioned at the GWTJ, they are described as the dead. No one that puts on immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming could possibly still be described as the dead from that point forward. Or do you disagree and instead think, though a person has already put on bodily immortality, from God's perspective they are still the dead? If that is true, when do they ever stop being the dead, from God's perspective?

There is another option though Amils obviously reject it, and even some Premils. There is a judgment at the beginning of the thousand years, this being a judgment involving the saved. Revelation 20:4 mentions judgment. No one would propose that that judgment is meaning the GWTJ after the thousand years, right? What do Amils make of that judgment? Unfortunately, Amils have very little to say about that judgment mentioned in that verse. I don't know why, though? It clearly mentions judgment in that verse.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Since recaps is a human invention, it is like an airplane that does not fly. An airplane can get you from one continent to another, but can not get you to Paradise.

You still cannot prove historically any of the recaps and how they fit history. Recap does seem to be a beautiful 777 Boeing, but they keep crashing.

Again, as per normal, you fail to address the evidence.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Though I don't disagree with some of your arguments, such as what you argued in the 2nd paragraph, in Revelation 20:12-15 it describes everyone at that resurrection as the dead, which I take to mean the dead that have been resurrected bodily. How does anyone that gets raptured, for example, somehow then die in order to be raised with the dead? How can there be one single person at the GWTJ that hasn't been bodily resurrected from the dead? Every group mentioned at the GWTJ, they are described as the dead. No one that puts on immortality at the last trump at the 2nd coming could possibly still be described as the dead from that point forward. Or do you disagree and instead think, though a person has already put on bodily immortality, from God's perspective they are still the dead? If that is true, when do they ever stop being the dead, from God's perspective?

There is another option though Amils obviously reject it, and even some Premils. There is a judgment at the beginning of the thousand years, this being a judgment involving the saved. Revelation 20:4 mentions judgment. No one would propose that that judgment is meaning the GWTJ after the thousand years, right? What do Amils make of that judgment? Unfortunately, Amils have very little to say about that judgment mentioned in that verse. I don't know why, though? It clearly mentions judgment in that verse.

The error you constantly make is that you do not seem to have the capability of divorcing yourself from your Premil teaching when analyzing Amil. That is why you jump to so many false conclusions. You examine Amil through Premil glasses. This is not wise.
 
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keras

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You just contradicted yourself "at His coming, those who belong to Christ" is not only some who belong to Christ.
No I didn't. I showed that 1 Cor 15:24 never stipulated who of the dead people who belong to Christ; Jesus will bring with Him at His Return.
That detail is given to us in Revelation 20:4; the martyrs killed during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns. Which includes the 2 Witnesses.
Nobody else. Proved by Revelation 20:5...The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are over.
No, immortality is given at the first judgement and resurrection. Again, that has already been proven by myself and others.
You have not proved this at all. The Bible is clear; immortality is given to those worthy of going into Eternity with God. When the Millennium is over.
Isaiah 65:20 is not related to the Millennium of Revelation 20.
Your unsupported opinion.
Isaiah 65:18-25 simply does not fit anywhere other than the Millennium.
Isaiah 65:17 is a prophecy for after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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No I didn't. I showed that 1 Cor 15:24 never stipulated who of the dead people who belong to Christ; Jesus will bring with Him at His Return.
That detail is given to us in Revelation 20:4; the martyrs killed during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns. Which includes the 2 Witnesses.
Nobody else. Proved by Revelation 20:5...The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years are over.

You have not proved this at all. The Bible is clear; immortality is given to those worthy of going into Eternity with God. When the Millennium is over.

Your unsupported opinion.
Isaiah 65:18-25 simply does not fit anywhere other than the Millennium.
Isaiah 65:17 is a prophecy for after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

Your unsupported opinions.
 
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