The Great Second Exodus

Spiritual Jew

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God does not do what God does based on whether humans think it foolishness or not. It is God's plan, not the will of humanity. Foolishness is trying to second guess God's sovereign plan. Because it does not meet with one's approval, one's interpretation, and one's common sense, does not make God's Word simply go away.
I actually agree with this, but I think you missed the point.

What I believe is foolish is to think that Jesus would rule from a physical temple when He returns when scripture never teaches such a thing. If scripture did teach that then I certainly wouldn't consider it to be foolish since I agree that God can do whatever He wants however He wants to do it. But, Jesus will not be ruling from a physical temple building because scripture never teaches such a thing.
 
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keras

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There is no hint in those verses that imply that " we Christians who are in Christ will be the physical recipients of all the Promises of God to His people in the end times.
This prophecy more that hints it! It plainly states that we Christians will be joint heirs, members of the same body in Christ and will receive the Promises of God thru Jesus. Romans 8:16-17, Ephesians 1:11-14
The blessing of Abraham did come upon the Gentiles in Acts. That verse also does not infer that "we Christians have to wait until the end times" to receive those blessings because the verse does indicate a continued blessing.
I quite agree with this. We await the end times events; starting with all the holy Land being cleared and cleansed, then all the faithful Christian peoples will go to live in all of the area given to Abraham and his descendants by ethnicity and by faith. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Jeremiah 12:14-16, Psalms 102:22, Romans 9:24-26, +
The only reference to the future hope we Christians have is of our heavenly inheritance which will come to all who believe. It does not indicate that we Christians have to wait until the "end times" whatsoever in any of those references!
We know our rewards are kept in heaven, Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return. Matthew 16:27
You contradict Jesus when you think anyone will go to live in heaven. John 3:13, John 15:17
But, Jesus will not be ruling from a physical temple building because scripture never teaches such a thing.
Maybe Jesus won't actually live in and rule from the new Temple, but for sure there will be a Temple in Jerusalem before and during the Millennium. 2 Thess 2:4, Rev 11:1, Zechariah 14:16-21
 
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ShineyDays2

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There WILL be a new Temple in Jerusalem during the final few years of this Christian era and for the Millennium. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1 prove it.

keras said: 2 Thess 2:4 is clearly talking about a real Temple.
You must have missed this so I'm re-posting it because I think it clarifies your position quite well.

Let's just see how serious this is in regards to your first line that says "2 Thess 2:4 is clearly talking about a real temple."

If you continue to use this verse of scripture in this manner then lets see just how you need to have your own Bible re-written to suit your pre-conceived plans of a new physical temple just like the JW's have re-written their bible to say "....and the word was a god" instead of "...and the word was God."

So, here is the way you need to replace that word you don't like to a word that fits in your new bible...

"...who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the physical building made of stone of God...."

therefore changing the original language from 'naos' to 'heiron'. Now all you have to do is to convince God to do it your way!

I would advise that you also remove the following verse in Revelation 22:18 & 19 in your new bible that says....

"I warn everyone who hears the prophecy of this book; if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words described in this book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life."
Even if you do not make yourself a new bible that conforms to your future plans the results are the same whether the altering of scripture is by verbal or written in black and white because God knows all, sees all, and hears all.
 
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Timtofly

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I actually agree with this, but I think you missed the point.

What I believe is foolish is to think that Jesus would rule from a physical temple when He returns when scripture never teaches such a thing. If scripture did teach that then I certainly wouldn't consider it to be foolish since I agree that God can do whatever He wants however He wants to do it. But, Jesus will not be ruling from a physical temple building because scripture never teaches such a thing.
Well saying Christ will not reign, is not predicated if it is a temple or tabernacle.
 
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keras

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You must have missed this so I'm re-posting it because I think it clarifies your position quite well.

Let's just see how serious this is in regards to your first line that says "2 Thess 2:4 is clearly talking about a real temple."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Now about the Return of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself: I beg you, my friends, do not suddenly allow yourselves to be fooled by wrong teaching, or become alarmed by any so called prophetic utterance, alleging that the great Day of His Return has already come.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for that Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when evil will be revealed in human form by the man doomed to destruction. He is the adversary who promotes himself above every so-called god or object of worship and even enthrones himself in God’s Temple, claiming to be God. But the restraining power of the Holy Spirit ensures that he will be revealed only at the appointed time, because already the secret forces of wickedness are at work, secret only for now until the restraining Hand is removed. Then he will be exposed, the great deceiver of the ages, the one who the Lord Jesus will destroy with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the radiance of His presence.

This appearance of the wicked one is the work of Satan, it will be attended by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise, all the deception that sinfulness can impose onto those doomed to destruction. All those people who refused to open their minds to the truth and so find salvation. Because they did not love truth or seek salvation, God has put them under a compelling delusion, which makes them believe what is false. Therefore, all who refuse to believe the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice will be brought to judgement.
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.

The Return of Jesus’, The Return in glory, to commence His Millennium reign. Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11

That Day cannot come…’ The Return will not come until all the happenings prophesied to occur before that Day are fulfilled. Such as the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl punishments of Revelation, commencing in our time with the next event of a terrible fire judgement; the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8

The Adversary’, - That is: Satan, he empowers the Anti-Christ, who will be the leader of the forthcoming One World Government. He makes a peace treaty with New Israel, [Beulah – Isaiah 62:1-5] as those who gather in the holy Land will not be part of that worldwide government. Daniel 9:27

God’s Temple’, The Third Temple, to be built by the new inhabitants of Jerusalem. Zechariah 6:15 It will be ‘a Temple of greater splendor than Solomon’s’. Haggai 2:9, Ezekiel 43:4

‘a compelling delusion’, Rom. 11:8. ‘Eyes that look, but cannot see – ears that hear, but cannot listen’, Deuteronomy 29:4, Matt. 13:14 This applies to those who ‘confuse themselves’, Isaiah 29:9-10, ‘you will stay confused’. That is: by believing false teachings, such as the pre tribulation rapture. Jeremiah 29:8-9, Zechariah 13:2

Brought to Judgement’, There are three judgements: Next: the judgement/ punishment of the nations. Then: at the Return, the destruction of Anti-Christ’s army and the separation of the ‘sheep and the goats’. After 1000 years comes the final Judgement of all peoples at the Great White Throne. Rev. 20:11-14
 
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ShineyDays2

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He is the adversary who promotes himself above every so-called god or object of worship and even enthrones himself in God’s Temple, claiming to be God.

Amazing keras! You totally avoided my point in the above #104 post about just how serious it is to exchange the word 'naos' (the spiritual intent for 'temple') to a brick and mortar word (heiron)that changes the entire meaning of the text which Revelation 22:18-19 does not permit anyone to do.

Instead of addressing the points that I, and many others have tried to get you to see, that in doing so it has serious consequences to it. It seems that you post multiple, after multiple, verses in hopes that we will not notice that you have missed the point entirely.

We all are aware of this tendency to use many verses out of the OT without regards to their fulfillment in the NT even though Jesus says (paraphrasing here) that he has fulfilled all of the OT that the Father has given him. Jesus was the point of the OT yet you side-step that point and use the OT to make it fulfill your passion for a third temple when indeed the "church" was the third and last temple to be built before Christ returns, all humans are resurrected from the dead, those alive are caught up together with them, the judgment is made, those who are born-again Christians go to heaven, the unjust go to hell, the earth is renewed, and the New Jerusalem is brought down with all the risen saints to be with the Lord forever.

Having said this, please do not take that last paragraph and focus on that instead of once again avoiding the post #104. If you keep avoiding the seriousness of what is in that post, then it only tells us here that you know but don't care about the consequences to changing the thought of a text to what you want it to say instead--- which is what it appears you continue to do.
 
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keras

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Amazing keras! You totally avoided my point in the above #104 post about just how serious it is to exchange the word 'naos' (the spiritual intent for 'temple') to a brick and mortar word (heiron)that changes the entire meaning of the text which Revelation 22:18-19 does not permit anyone to do.
I have addressed the issue of 'naos' and 'heiron'. Naos can mean a literal Temple.
A real Temple that the real Anti-Christ will sit in and declare himself to be God.
Your use of the curse is Rev 22, is judgmental and done because I challenge you beliefs. Beliefs you have been taught, but may not be the truth.
Do not judge, so you be not judged. James 4:11-12
use the OT to make it fulfill your passion for a third temple when indeed the "church" was the third and last temple to be built before Christ returns, all humans are resurrected from the dead, those alive are caught up together with them, the judgment is made, those who are born-again Christians go to heaven, the unjust go to hell, the earth is renewed, and the New Jerusalem is brought down with all the risen saints to be with the Lord forever.
Yes I use the OT and ALL of the Bible. To me it makes a coherent narrative, of which none of your statement above is true or correct.

Lets just wait for events to see who is right. Could be very soon.
 
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ShineyDays2

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Naos can mean a literal Temple
Please show me where anywhere in the NT where 'naos' refers to a literal brick and mortar temple that Jesus himself refers to, where the epistle writers use it for a literal Christian or Jewish temple or in the Book of Revelation. Several of us on here have done extensive studies of that particular word "temple" and I challenge you to provide a LEGITIMATE one that uses "naos" in a "literal" manner.
Your use of the curse is Rev 22, is judgmental and done because I challenge you beliefs.
Don't go there keras! That was a legitimate quote from scripture that was legitimately applied to the manner in which you have replaced 'naos' with 'hieron' in 2 Thess 2:4. I don't judge you, if you felt judged then it was because the Holy Spirit may have been trying to tell you something. I take that verse seriously as applied to myself as well. That is why I take scripture so seriously.
Beliefs you have been taught, but may not be the truth.
Most all dedicated people I know permit scripture to guide them in what to believe and not go to scripture with a preconceived idea or what someone like the uneducated J.N.Darby promoted extensively through the Scofield Bible and was taught through the Dallas Theological Seminary for the sole purpose of making money off books and unwary student. It is because of that man's ideas that came from circles that were involved with spiritualism in England and Scotland in the early 1800's that blossomed into the dispensational theory that I vehemently detest.

I have no idea where you have picked up your philosophic ideas that you wish to stick to but they sure do resemble dispensational views as they teach at Dallas Seminary and of which it has infiltrated some of the best pastors on TV which shall be unnamed.

I have a collection of Interlinear Bibles, lexicons, dictionaries and books by authors that I believe are dedicated to adhering to scripture in them. It is because of those lexicons and interlinear bibles that I can detect those Greek words that make a huge difference in right and wrong beliefs. So do not bully me again with telling me that you think you know what I have been taught. My first pastor told me something that I never forgot and use to this day which is "Test every new thought in comparison to scripture." Perhaps you should move over into the NT and search out all those OT verse to see if Jesus meant what he said when he proclaimed "I have fulfilled ALL that the Father gave me." (paraphrased).
 
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keras

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Perhaps you should move over into the NT and search out all those OT verse to see if Jesus meant what he said when he proclaimed "I have fulfilled ALL that the Father gave me."
It would be better for you to actually read what I have posted. Without your biased opinions.
The Bible tells of of many things that await fulfillment and how the Lord Jesus will protect His people during the tough times ahead.
(dead flesh accusation is humanities responsibility.........pain will increase, loss of life will increase in earth propensity to field, it does not have to many anything significantly)
Please do not post incoherent nonsense here.
 
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jgr

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Paul's temples:

"naos" spiritual:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ephesians 2:21-22
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"eidóleion" physical:

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"hieros/hieron" physical:

1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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jgr

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It would be better for you to actually read what I have posted. Without your biased opinions.
The Bible tells of of many things that await fulfillment and how the Lord Jesus will protect His people during the tough times ahead.

Please do not post incoherent nonsense here.

I've been curious about the following ever since you posted it:

"All I can say; is that I have received a vision and the Lord has inspired me to promote the Prophetic Word.
Also my given name IS Keras, [actually McKerras - Mc means; son of and I delete the extra 'r']
Keras, or Keraz, means in Hebrew and in Greek; a messenger, a proclaimer, especially of divine truths. Strongs- H3475 and G2783"

Neither keras nor keraz appears in Strongs- H3475 and G2783, i.e. the words do not exist in biblical Hebrew or Greek.

Please provide a clarifying link.
 
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keras

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Neither keras nor keraz appears in Strongs- H3475 and G2783, i.e. the words do not exist in biblical Hebrew or Greek.

Please provide a clarifying link.
My bad typo. Very sorry.
They DO exist:
k'raz, pronounced 'keraz' is Strongs H3745 [Not H3475]

kerux, pronounced kayrooz, or kayrusso, are G2783 and G2784.

They both refer to a person who is a proclaimer of scriptural truths. Which is what I do and I could not have done what I have without the inspiration of the holy Spirit.

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, what is the reason you object to it?
 
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jgr

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My bad typo. Very sorry.
They DO exist:
k'raz, pronounced 'keraz' is Strongs H3745 [Not H3475]

kerux, pronounced kayrooz, or kayrusso, are G2783 and G2784.

They both refer to a person who is a proclaimer of scriptural truths. Which is what I do and I could not have done what I have without the inspiration of the holy Spirit.

There will be a new Temple in Jerusalem, what is the reason you object to it?

The Hebrew (Aramaic) transliteration is kraz, and the Greek transliterations are keryx and kerysso.

If your parents wanted to emphasize the Scriptural connection, why didn't they choose one of the three?

"Keras" is nonexistent in Scripture.
 
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keras

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The Hebrew (Aramaic) transliteration is kraz, and the Greek transliterations are keryx and kerysso.

"Keras" is nonexistent in Scripture.
I wrote exactly what Strongs original dictionary said. You have twisted and changed it. Anyway; an exact match isn't possible or necessary.

We will soon see who it is that proclaims the Prophetic Word.
Those who opposed the truths of Bible prophecy will be ashamed and very embarrassed when the end times take place as the Bible prophets tell us.
 
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jgr

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I wrote exactly what Strongs original dictionary said. You have twisted and changed it. Anyway; an exact match isn't possible or necessary.

We will soon see who it is that proclaims the Prophetic Word.
Those who opposed the truths of Bible prophecy will be ashamed and very embarrassed when the end times take place as the Bible prophets tell us.

If the links that I provided are incorrect, then provide correct ones.

Ones that you haven't twisted and changed.
 
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ShineyDays2

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I have addressed the issue of 'naos' and 'heiron'. Naos can mean a literal Temple.
A real Temple that the real Anti-Christ will sit in and declare himself to be God.
Uh, no keras, you have not addressed the issue of 'naos' and 'hieron'. Instead you have avoided my question completely! That in itself is revealing that you know but can't admit it because you too have books about it to sell.

My question was "Please show me where anywhere in the NT where 'naos' refers to a literal brick and mortar temple that Jesus himself refers to, where the epistle writers use it for a literal Christian or Jewish temple or in the Book of Revelation. Several of us on here have done extensive studies of that particular word "temple" and I challenge you to provide a LEGITIMATE one that uses "naos" in a "literal" manner."

Out of all scholars that have written lexicons and dictionaries none have replaced 'naos' with 'hieron' in 2 Thess 2:4 so how is it that you believe you could possible have legitimately manipulated it to fit your preconceived ideas about a third physical temple?

Also, if you continue to insult my integrity and my ability to adhere to scripture to cover up what you do to Thessalonians and others then I am going to ask the staff to remove you from this forum.
 
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Timtofly

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Also, if you continue to insult my integrity and my ability to adhere to scripture to cover up what you do to Thessalonians and others then I am going to ask the staff to remove you from this forum.
You could also not reply to him.

Removing people from public forums because they offend you is found where in Scripture?

Not taking any sides in this, but letting everyone know you are against the freedom of expression and silencing any one's voice, goes against basic human decency.

Many people were burned at the stake to remove them from the public forum, so they could not be heard.
 
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ShineyDays2

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They both refer to a person who is a proclaimer of scriptural truths. Which is what I do and I could not have done what I have without the inspiration of the holy Spirit.

Your real name: McKerras
What you say your calling is: KERAZ, the messenger

What the concordance says:
Keras (κέρας) means horn in Greek. It is a reference to a literary image from ancient Greek and Latin literature, first found in the Odyssey, where dream spirits (Oneiroi, singular Oneiros) are divided between those who deceive men with false visions, who arrive to Earth through a gate of ivory, and those who announce a future that will come to pass, who arrive through a gate of horn. It's a play on the words κέρας (horn) / κραίνω (fulfill), and ἐλέφας (ivory) / ἐλεφαίρομαι (deceive).

Strong's Number: 2768
Word Origin
keraß
from a primary kar (the hair of the head)
Transliterated Word
TDNT Entry

Keras

Parts of Speech
ker'-as
Noun Neuter
Definition
  1. a horn
    1. of animals
    2. since animals (esp. bulls) defend themselves with their horns, the horn with the Hebrews (and other nations) is a symbol of strength and courage, and used as such in a variety of phrases
      1. a mighty and valiant helper, the author of deliverance, of the Messiah
    3. a projecting extremity in a shape like a horn, a point, apex: as of an altar
Rearranging a name to imply that one has been ordained by God to be one of his "messengers" does not make one his ordained messengers any more than my name "moriah" means that I am a mountain. The test of an ordained "messenger/prophet" is the results. The twisting of Thessalonians, reveals that it is not inspired by the Holy Spirit but ordained by the individual himself.
 
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