SkyWriting

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In your opinion, that's all.
Well...yes.
When local laws are ignored in scripture, death results, usually the most violent deaths of innocent people that you are able to imagine. Death by being mauled and eaten, death by machete, death to wives and children. For me, that is not a morally supported action. Don't let my morality influence your deeds.
 
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SkyWriting

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If God wanted a woman to lead the Church, He would of sent a woman. But, He sent a man, who in turn, picked men to be his disciples. Women can teach other women outside of church (Titus 2:4-5) They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Yes, and also not working at home:

The Bible mentions women who worked in commercial trade (Prov. 31:16a, 24; Acts 16:14), in agriculture (Josh. 15:17-19; Ruth 2:8; Prov. 31:16b), as millers (Exod. 11:5; Matt. 24:41), as shepherds (Gen. 29:9; Exod. 2:16), as artisans, especially in textiles (Exod. 26:1 NIV; Tobit 2:11ff NRSV; Acts 18:3), as perfumers and cooks (1 Sam. 8:13), as midwives (Exod. 1:15ff), as nurses (Gen. 35:8; Exod. 2:7; 2 Sam. 4:4; 1 Kings 1:4), as domestic servants (Acts 12:13, etc), and as professional mourners (Jer. 9:17). Women could also be patrons (Acts 16:40; Rom. 16:1-2), leaders (Judg. ch 4-5; 2 Sam. 20:16) and ruling queens (1 Kings 10:1ff; Acts 8:27). One Bible woman even built towns (1 Chron. 7:24). Many women, and men, worked from home, yet the Bible nowhere criticises women who worked outside the home in the public sphere.
Working Women in the New Testament: Priscilla, Lydia & Phoebe | Marg Mowczko
 
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mikeforjesus

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1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

it seems by the words submissive as also shown below it seems Paul was teaching the law taught it is more appropriate if one wants to learn but has issues with a teaching not to speak in church as their goal should be to learn in church and not to teach and so should ask their husbands at home because the male pastor should be the principal teacher in church and they should be seeking to learn from them and not to encourage others to disagree with them and teach them but to learn so they teach only what they know their pastor teaches. I do not believe women can’t be teachers however in a general sense of trying to encourage people to minister for Jesus but not in doctrine if it seems the person will teach from oneself and so are less trusted to teach from scripture

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
 
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SkyWriting

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1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

it seems by the words submissive as also shown below it seems Paul was teaching the law taught it is more appropriate if one wants to learn but has issues with a teaching not to speak in church as their goal should be to learn in church and not to teach and so should ask their husbands at home because the male pastor should be the principal teacher in church and they should be seeking to learn from them and not to encourage others to disagree with them and teach them but to learn so they teach only what they know their pastor teaches. I do not believe women can’t be teachers however in a general sense of trying to encourage people to minister for Jesus but not in doctrine if it seems the person will teach from oneself and so are less trusted to teach from scripture

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Paul was referring to a church law or a local law. Nobody seems to know which or cares why.
Yes, Christians are to submit to all legal authorities.
What Does the Bible Say About Authorities?

We don't outlaw women talking anymore, for some reason I am unable to explain here evidently. Maybe the Holy Spirit can enlighten perhaps one more reader.

What Does the Bible Say About Do To Others?

.
 
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SkyWriting

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Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

We do let women speak in church, so everyone seems to have decided those rules have no value today.
The rules were for infant premie baby churches that had no New Testament. They were still operating on obsolete Old Testament Law for a while. Just for the sake of order and procedure.

I'll bet the early churches were very much like Jewish synagogue with very slow changes for a few hundred years.
 
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SkyWriting

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I would go with scripture because it says:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2 Timothy 3:16)
What year did we give women the right to vote?
Do you agree with Paul that was a mistake?
 
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SkyWriting

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It depends upon how one views the infallibility of Scripture and especially the words of Paul. Did Paul always speak with authority for God or did he sometimes just reflect the norms of his times?

He was speaking to groups of Jews and the transformation of the church to maturity couldn't occur until the New Testament was finished. Even then the church changed and adapted at about the same rate that churches change ideology nowadays. Consider that in the US, all women were given the right to vote in 1965. Was that a mistake? That's how fast society changes.
 
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Chrystal-J

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What year did we give women the right to vote?
Do you agree with Paul that was a mistake?
What does that have to do with teaching scripture and administering the sacraments?
 
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SkyWriting

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What does that have to do with teaching scripture and administering the sacraments?
If we treat women differently from men we are in violation of the two commandments.
In most cases, in violation of federal law. Morally, in all cases.
What Does the Bible Say About Do To Others?

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
 
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CatsRule2020

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Men's hair coverings were to be removed in the assemblies and women's were to stay on. These were man-made customs introduced to show that Christ was over the man and that man was over the woman. The custom showing the submisivenes of women to men is still in practice in the Middle East. The law of their submission goes back to the story of Adam and Eve. Since their head covering and public silence are customs (1 Cor 11:16), we would be enforcing spiritual laws where none exist to insist they are part of the New Covenant (Testament).

1 Corinthians 11:16
Holman Christian Standard Bible

16 But if anyone wants to argue about this, we have no other custom, nor do the churches of God.
 
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Albion

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If we treat women differently from men we are in violation of the two commandments.
In most cases, in violation of federal law. Morally, in all cases.
What Does the Bible Say About Do To Others?

Matthew 22:37-40
And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

According to that reasoning, every believer would have to play the exact same role in the church as every other member does, period. If not, your analysis would say there wasn't love. Everybody exactly the same or else it means we don't love some of them.

Leaving aside the fact that there is also a verse which says this isn't how God's church works, the possibility of doing it is not only nil but we also know that it never was done in the history of the early church and is specifically ruled out by the Bible!

But as I've noted before, with history and Scripture standing against women pastors, there isn't much that can be argued to the opposite except "Love" (even when it isn't the issue). :)
 
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Paidiske

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They get paid. There can be no gender discrimination in employment.

If you prefer "God's Law" then this covers that and eliminates gender discrimination:
What Does the Bible Say About Do To Others?

For what it's worth, clergy are not historically considered to be employees, but holders of an office (there's a distinction at law, there).

Possibly a couple, would be a worthy argument. But women are hard-wired to protect their children at any cost, so preaching the gospel to children and others, knowing they would die as a result of the teachings, would be a burden for a female Christ.

That's an interesting point of view, but I can't imagine it was less of a burden for a male Christ. And I am reminded of the stories of the mothers of martyrs who encouraged their children to martyrdom. (2 Maccabees 7 comes to mind, but there are also such mothers in Christian history).

Of course, the strongest argument for women in ministry is the clear evidence of women in ministry even in the New Testament. That will be dismissed, denied and belittled by those who don't want to see it, but it's there.
 
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Chrystal-J

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According to that reasoning, every believer would have to play the exact same role in the church as every other member does, period. If not, your analysis would say there wasn't love. Everybody exactly the same or else it means we don't love some of them.
Agreed. Each has an equally important, but different, role to play.
 
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Kilk1

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I prefer the term "Illegal discrimination" but sexist is 100% correct.

We do let women speak in church, so everyone seems to have decided those rules have no value today.
The rules were for infant premie baby churches that had no New Testament. They were still operating on obsolete Old Testament Law for a while. Just for the sake of order and procedure.

I'll bet the early churches were very much like Jewish synagogue with very slow changes for a few hundred years.

This is confusing to me. After saying what he said in verses 34-35, Paul continues in verses 36-37, "Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." Are you denying that what he wrote in this passage are, in fact, "the commandments of the Lord"? This would seem to make Paul a liar here, unless there's something I'm not seeing.
 
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SkyWriting

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This is confusing to me. After saying what he said in verses 34-35, Paul continues in verses 36-37, "Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord." Are you denying that what he wrote in this passage are, in fact, "the commandments of the Lord"? This would seem to make Paul a liar here, unless there's something I'm not seeing.

- Jesus did walk-the-walk from the living to the cross
with no regrets or complaints against the local law enforcement.
So if Paul supported local law, as he does state, then he was giving advice based
on the commandments of the Lord, which are to follow local laws as Jesus did.
- The Holy Spirit goes direct to our hearts.


Galatians 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.

(I meant to say, I shall have Paul inform you.)
 
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Kilk1

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DavetheSlave

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I would go with scripture because it says:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2 Timothy 3:16)

This. Amen.
 
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Strong in Him

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Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

No, but 2 verses taken out of context can certainly be used to prove that it does.
 
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Strong in Him

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If Jesus had wanted female pastors, he would of made some of the apostles women.

You could say that if Jesus wanted non Jewish Ministers he would have made some of the Apostles Gentiles - same reasoning.
 
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