Nathan@work
Always ready :)
- Feb 19, 2021
- 1,025
- 360
- 44
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Upvote
0
Was the OT totally in reference to God the Father?
- Thread starter Jaxxi
- Start date
BrotherJJ
Well-Known Member
- Jul 23, 2019
- 1,120
- 424
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
A bit confused here, I made no reference as to Jesus being created. In fact, I called Him "God the Son".
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name "shall" be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(MY NOTE: A child will be given/born & we will call Him ""The mighty God"")
Micah 5:2 "Bethlehem" you are little to be among the "clans of Judah" yet out of you "shall" One come forth Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, ""from ancient days, eternity'''''
(MY NOTE: Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea (Matt 2:1) is called the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev 5:5) & this verse proclaims He is ""from ancient days, eternity/EVERLASTING''')
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(MY NOTE: """God was manifest in the flesh""")
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(MY NOTE: """The Word/God the Son""" """was with God/the Father""" & """the Word/Jesus was God""". Also see Rev 19:13)
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(MY NOTE: Jesus is our creator God. Also see Jn 1:10, Col 1:16 & 17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(MY NOTE: The Word/Jesus/God the Son became flesh & walked among us).
To your satan question, shared scripture above teach NT Jesus/OT Jehovah was sent by God the Father & created everything within our universe. Having said that, satan may have existed before our universe was created. So, the Father or Son both being from eternity past, may have created him.
Upvote
0
- Oct 4, 2016
- 7,236
- 7,312
- 56
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Oriental Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Single
There are at least 2 explanations on that and both might be true to some degree.
1) Christ was speaking from the stand point of Kenosis. In the Incarnation before the Crucifixion he set aside most of his Divine privileges and attributes to be human so he can be tempted like we are etc. Hebrews 4:15.
This also allows Christ to be a good example for us. Because he did not have any advantages different than what a righteous believer would. (If he did then we could say "Well yes but he was divine.. he didn't have my problem...") 1 Peter 2:21-25, John 13:15
Kenosis - Wikipedia
2) This statement is a direct allusion to the Hebrew custom of weddings. In Israel weddings were actually done as surprise parties. After the groom had eventually prepared the house, room or lodging where he would live with his bride they would secretly organize a banquet party. When everything was done, the groom would try to come around in the middle of the night one night and snatch the bride away to a secret wedding party in progress. And the person actually who picked the exact time or gave the final OK, was the Father of the Groom who basically sponsored everything, and the head person organizing the feast etc.
Upvote
0
Dustoff
Active Member
I can think of another couple of reasons.
One is that within the Godhead there are different roles and responsibilities.
More probably Jesus was dealing with the fact people were going to set dates for his second advent and he was trying to head that off. Of course some do it anyway.
Upvote
0
- Aug 11, 2017
- 22,396
- 7,334
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
Well something I found that I think was quite interesting was in John 3:13
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”
John 3:13 NASB1995
So this to me suggests that when God appeared to man face to face it was most likely Jesus and not God The Father. Now with Moses it was a burning bush or a pillar of fire so that was most likely him simply hearing the voice of God but in the case of Abraham when The Lord came to him face to face to make the covenant with him I believe that was Jesus according to what He said in John 3:13. Now this is just a theory I have on this but I think it could hold some weight. It also could’ve been Jesus that Jacob wrestled with and not God The Father. Just throwing out a possibility on the subject. Oh and Jesus did also say the no one has seen The Father. So that’s another indication.
Upvote
0
Jake Arsenal
Active Member
- Mar 2, 2021
- 306
- 193
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Jesus is not separate from the Father like I am separate from you. Father, Son, Holy Spirit are distinct yet all of one substance. Most heresies have arisen from finite people trying to understand the substance of an infinite GOD.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Upvote
0
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
There are three compelling answers to this question, and these answers are not mutually exclusive; St. John Chrysostom said it was a figure of speech intended to forbid men from even inquiring about the time of His return; this directly relates to the second answer, which is that Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Word of God is fully human and fully divine, and because of his complete humanity, He cannot reveal according to His human hypostasis the date, and His human hypostasis cannot know it; this synchronizes with the correct doctrine that our Lord has both a divine will and a human will; but He is fully God, and in the context of His divinity knows it extra-temporally, but that takes us to the third answer, that being that being that each person of the Trinity does have unique attributes and perogatives and a special function in our creation: God the Father desired us to exist as an expression of His love and therefore made us and the rest of creation by His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, and Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit after His ascension to Heaven to dwell within us Christians and to provide us with direct help and comfort.
The Church is described as the Bride of Christ, and our salvation is symbolized by the idea of marriage to Christ; the extreme love of a true couple being properly married for each other is even less intense than the burning love God has for all of us; in the Hebrew culture it was the responsibility of the father to fix all aspects of the marriage, and in like manner, it is a particular responsibility of God the Father to arrange the day and the hour of the wedding of the Church, the Bride of Christ, with Her Bridegroom, Jesus Christ. Our Lord is constantly referring to Himself or is referred to as the Bridegroom, so under divine principles reflected in the ancient Hebrew traditions it is His responsibility to wed the Church and the Father’s responsibility to prepare the Wedding Banquet and set the time.
The members of the Trinity are distinct persons, three persons, three hypostases, united in the Divine Nature of the Father, from who, the Son is begotten before all ages and the Holy Spirit proceeds. And our Lord Jesus Christ hypostatically or theandrically united us to them, because He is fully God and fully Man simultaneously.
However, as St. Chrysostom stressed, the most fundamental reason is that we are not supposed to know or even speculate as to the time, for He will come “like a thief in the Knight.” This is why I reject all speculation that the end times are more or less imminent than at any other time; it is not my right to know, as a man in the Church, but rather is the sole purview of God the Father to see to our union with Christ.
Upvote
0
Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
Hi our minds have difficulty in understanding the concept of the trinity all being God and equally God and yet having distinct roles in the one God head. In the beginning God said let there be light and then let us create man in our image. This is the 1st hint God is compound and complex.
In Col 1 there is a passage that helped me a lot on this.
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
In this passage we see both the Father and the son mentioned and we see the Father qualifies us in paragraph one and we see the son redeemed us in paragraph two.
In paragraph two the narrative of the purpose of all creation is stated. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
We are made in the image of God that being with self awareness and an eternal soul. God is infinite and we are finite. The fullness of the creation is for fellowship with God. Jesus is the word become flesh or the manifestation of the Father incarnate. The infinite through the son is the mediator between us and the Father. This is why Jesus has the preeminence and Jesus gives all glory to the Father yet the purpose or creation reads like a book with plot lines and Jesus coming to ransom man was known all along. In rev we see when the LORD returns the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever. After the 1000 year kingdom has come the new jerusalem comes down and we will see Jesus have the preeminence and he is worthy for having taken the lowest place to receive this glory. In that day we may understand it a bit better but perhaps read Dan 7 and you will see the same thing the son of man before the ancient of days and the son of man is given the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end. when this is all done and come full circle we might have a better clue to what Jesus meant by this, And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
In Col 1 there is a passage that helped me a lot on this.
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood,[fn] the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
In this passage we see both the Father and the son mentioned and we see the Father qualifies us in paragraph one and we see the son redeemed us in paragraph two.
In paragraph two the narrative of the purpose of all creation is stated. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
We are made in the image of God that being with self awareness and an eternal soul. God is infinite and we are finite. The fullness of the creation is for fellowship with God. Jesus is the word become flesh or the manifestation of the Father incarnate. The infinite through the son is the mediator between us and the Father. This is why Jesus has the preeminence and Jesus gives all glory to the Father yet the purpose or creation reads like a book with plot lines and Jesus coming to ransom man was known all along. In rev we see when the LORD returns the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever. After the 1000 year kingdom has come the new jerusalem comes down and we will see Jesus have the preeminence and he is worthy for having taken the lowest place to receive this glory. In that day we may understand it a bit better but perhaps read Dan 7 and you will see the same thing the son of man before the ancient of days and the son of man is given the kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end. when this is all done and come full circle we might have a better clue to what Jesus meant by this, And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
So you’re close to being correct there, but you did make a minor technical error I am afraid, which lead to you inadvertantly making a statement which is technically Nestorian. By the way, the CF.com statement of faith in my opinion does not exclude Nestorians; Nestorius himself could be a member; being Nestorian is as simple as denying Mary gave birth to God. However, the majority of Christian churches, including your own Anglican church, reject Nestorianism and subscribe to either Chalcedonian or Miaphysite Christology, or in the case of the so-called Nestorians, those being the Assyrian Christians, they venerate Nestorius and prefer to call Mary the “Christotokos” rather than “Theotokos”, however, their Christology was redefined at the start of the sixth century by Mar Babai the Great so as to be effectively identical to that of Chalcedon.
So, yes, it is correct that Jesus Christ did put on our created Human nature, but He and the Word of God are the same Person (even Nestorius said this; he was not as intelligent a theologian as he thought he was, because his Christology inadvertently divides Christ into two persons, whereas in the fourth century Diodore of Tarsus I believe made such an explicit and intentional division) , and furthermore, in Chalcedonian Christology, His humanity and divinity are combined in one Hypostasis, without change.
The minor technical error you made was thinking of the divine nature of Christ existing in time before the Incarnation; God created the universe, including time, and is therefore beyond time, so there is no sense in thinking that our Lord simply existed in time in the same way as we do in His divinity. He does exist in the same way we exist in time through His humanity; he became human by the Virgin Mary, and thus she gave birth to God incarnate. In His incarnation, God in the person of the Son interacts with His creation from within His creation, and by becoming man, and dying on the cross, he sacrificed Himself for us, and by rising on the third day, destroyed death, “trampling down death by death.” O Hades, where is thy sting? Death is swallowed up in victory.
There is a Christological principle used by Chalcedonian and Miaphysite Christians called communicatio idiomatum, which is the idea that any property you could apply to Jesus Christ in one of His natures, is communicated to the other nature. So the wonder of the Incarnation is that He who is Uncreated united Himself with creation, and it is an article of Chalcedonian and Miaphysite faith that this union is without change, confusion or separation of the divine and human natures.
By the way, I would note that Anglicanism has traditionally always adhered to Chalcedon.
Also, if I might ask an unrelated question, are you a member of the main Anglican Church of Canada, and do you use or know of any parishes who use, the 1962 Canadian Book of Common Prayer, rather than the Alternative Service Book?
Upvote
0
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
I agree with most of your post except for the pre-Millennial aspect; this was rejected at the Second Ecumenical Council.
Upvote
0
Brian Mcnamee
Well-Known Member
the 2nd ecumenical counsel will be rejected when the LORD comes and is king over all the earth. This is probably not the place to open this debate in length but in every depiction of the kingdom coming evil is quashed and righteousness and peace have come and the passages that are specific like Zech 14 where Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city is taken and the LORD comes and melts those invaders and the LORD is king over all the earth. The nations which are left must now keep the feast of Tabernacle and worship the king or they get no rain. The new river created by the splitting of the mount of Olives flows year round and flows east which would take it to the dead sea which Ezekiel notes is going to be healed and a prosperous fishing town at the time the 12 tribes receive their inheritance. ch 47
You see in Luke 1 Jesus mission is declared 9 But when she saw him,[fn] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.
This exact before and after picture is coming and future and quite literal. I can back this up with at least 100 passages all harmonious on this literal idea. The allegorical view of the 2nd counsel is in error and the church is not Israel although there is merit to the spiritual kingdom and Israel too but those concepts do not nullify the future destiny that if taken literally is not veiled but quite clear. Anyways you you are free to keep your views but I suggest you be like a Barean and try to see the possibility of your conclusions if you just believed what it said would actually come to pass.
Upvote
0
- Apr 13, 2011
- 378
- 187
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Charismatic
- Marital Status
- Single
Kind of like different organs of a single being. The brain (God) is the organ that holds the knowledge. The heart (Jesus) provides the lifeforce, and the Holy Spirit (hands) is the extremities that do the work. The heart and hands have no knowledge in themselves because that is not what they’re designed for.
Just an idea.
Upvote
0
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
I don’t believe you understand what the Second Ecumenical Council did if you think it will, or even could be, rejected. After all, it produced the Creed. Now, did they possibly get it wrong on millenialism? Yes, but my point in my earlier post was not that I disagreed with your Chiliast interpretation, but rather that, as an amillenialist, I agreed with everything you wrote in that reply except your reference to a time-limited kingdom.
The reason for this is I believe, because of what the Creed says, that the Kingdom of Jesus will last forever. But other than this minor disagreement, the Christology you expressed struck me as being correct and in accordance with the Creed, and Christology is the main point of this thread. That’s also why I rated your post as useful.
We may not agree on the subject of the duration of Christ’s Kingdom, but I would very much desire your friendship, and I also admire you for having an uncommonly good Christological understanding.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
@MarkRohfrietsch and @ViaCrucis - there was a Lutheran minister who did an amusing video with Irish twins arguing Christology with St. Patrick. Would either of you have a link to that to paste in here?
Upvote
0
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
Ah, basically the same arguments I used, except I presume you were unaware of that of St. Chrysostom.
Upvote
0
- Oct 4, 2016
- 7,236
- 7,312
- 56
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Oriental Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Single
Yeah I haven't read of him in that context. Most of that saint I know is from the liturgy, and a few odds and ends quotes. "Christ trampling down death by his own death." being the immediate one that comes to mind. Now I will have to go back and see what Johnny Gold Mouth said!
Upvote
0
- Nov 26, 2019
- 11,097
- 5,663
- 49
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Generic Orthodox Christian
- Marital Status
- Celibate
Yeah I haven't read of him in that context. Most of that saint I know is from the liturgy, and a few odds and ends quotes. "Christ trampling down death by his own death." being the immediate one that comes to mind. Now I will have to go back and see what Johnny Gold Mouth said!
He was such a good preacher, at times I wish ministers who aren’t good at preaching would just use portions of his homilies. I say portions because he tended to preach at the ninth hour, using Noone as a preaching service separate from and after the liturgical synaxis, and some of his sermons are long. But some, like the Paschal homily, are extremely compact.
I only ever use his Paschal homily and the similar Paschal homily of St. Athanasius, because I have never heard a modern day priest do a better job of explaining Easter than either of them.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Oct 4, 2016
- 7,236
- 7,312
- 56
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Oriental Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Single
I can imagine!
I mean in my nondenominational Charismatic days, I've heard some doozies. This one in particular was more Anselm than Anselm, and the way the person described all the sin and shame being put on Christ, which caused the Father to recoil, it was kind of Nestorian, in Christ experiencing separation from the Father while on the cross... Nestorian not quite the right term but you get my drift, it was like the Trinity was momentarily divided.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
