Paul did not teach Perpetual Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

NotreDame said:

Your view is inconsistent with and irreconcilable with Paul’s view and John.

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

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Ephesians 2:8-9 says,


Now, when we read Ephesians 2:8-9 we must understand several things in light of the whole counsel of God's Word.


Ephesians 2:10 says,


These works are an entirely different kind of works than the one mentioned in Ephesians 2:9. In Ephesians 2:10: These are God directed works done through the believer (See: Philippians 2:13). Whereas Ephesians 2:9 is referring to Man Directed Works (or Works ALONE Salvationism). In Ephesians 2:10: This is the work of faith that Paul refers to in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 (and not "Works Alone Salvationism" that does not include God's grace that is mentioned in verse 9). Ephesians 2:10 is what takes place after we accept the Lord as our Savior for salvation (i.e. After we are saved by God's grace). We are Christ's workmanship. We are His masterpiece. We are created anew by being born again spiritually after we sought out forgiveness of our sins with the Lord Jesus. We are given a new heart with new desires. Also, Jesus lives in us and does the good work, as well (See John 15:5). This is how we are able to be created unto good works. With a regenerated new born again spirit and with Jesus living in us, we can do good works which God has ordained (pre-arranged before this world was formed) that we should walk in these good works. The word "should" is used here. Saying of the necessity and importance of these good works that are to follow one's faith in the Lord for salvation.

But Ephesians 2 is primarily focuses on our initial or ultimate salvation (See Ephesians 2:11-18), and not on our Sanctification or the works that must follow. Verse 10 is merely a quick point of what needs to happen after we are saved by God's grace (Jesus). Nothing in Ephesians 2 is clearly mentioned about Sanctification (or living holy) as a part of our salvation because it's focus is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism. However, we know by other verses in the Bible that Sanctification is a part of our salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Even Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. So Scripture has to be read as a whole and we cannot isolate verses so as to justify a wrong belief (Especially when that belief is immoral).

MMXX said:

Have you ever met a genuine believer who was living it up with prostitutes? You're stuck in a "Christians thinking they can live like the Devil" groove. It's like your mission here is to prove to us that we can't, as if we're all on the brink of doing so.

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But Christians do other things like watch inappropriate content, cuss, watch sin filled movies, get drunk sometimes, idolize politicians or the country, and they believe they can do these things on occasion and still be saved while doing so because they believe man is sinful and depraved and he cannot overcome grievous sin in this life. They believe 1 John 1:8 is a banner flag that they raise high in the air to justify sin when it is not (See: 1 John 2:3-4). Remember, it only took one serious sin by Adam to separate him from God spiritually and for all of mankind to be affected by the Fall.

Believers need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13).

NotreDame said:

Your view is inconsistent with and irreconcilable with Paul’s view and John.

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

No salvation by works.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son and who lever believes Him will not perish but will have everlasting life.” Belief, not works, but belief, faith, saves.

“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

How do you make sense of your inconsistent thoughts above?

Saved by grace. Then saved by works and obedience.

So, salvation by grace, but not really, salvation by works? Your two statements present the idea that there are TWO salvations, a salvation by grace and after that a salvation by works. There’s no Biblical support for this notion of saved by grace and saved again by works.

And your verses do not establish salvation by works. Rather, your verses are touching upon what Jesus called “fruit.” Someone with a sincere faith in Jesus and love for Jesus will produce certain kinds of fruit, your verses mentioned some of the fruit. The verses aren’t saying the “fruit” saves, and neither are the verses saying the “works” save.

The action of loving God with all of one’s might, would, mind, soul, and heart is a product of a sincere faith in and love for God but the faith came first and brought salvation. The works are a result of a living a life consistent with God’s holiness, the one who gave the salvation.

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Actually, when I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. Justification (Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Justification is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Justification is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Justification will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For Justification verses, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification (The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by Justification and Sanctification).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly applied Justification and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

Justification, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are justified, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement

NotreDame said:

Your view is inconsistent with and irreconcilable with Paul’s view and John.

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

No salvation by works.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son and who lever believes Him will not perish but will have everlasting life.” Belief, not works, but belief, faith, saves.

“if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

How do you make sense of your inconsistent thoughts above?

Saved by grace. Then saved by works and obedience.

So, salvation by grace, but not really, salvation by works? Your two statements present the idea that there are TWO salvations, a salvation by grace and after that a salvation by works. There’s no Biblical support for this notion of saved by grace and saved again by works.

And your verses do not establish salvation by works. Rather, your verses are touching upon what Jesus called “fruit.” Someone with a sincere faith in Jesus and love for Jesus will produce certain kinds of fruit, your verses mentioned some of the fruit. The verses aren’t saying the “fruit” saves, and neither are the verses saying the “works” save.

The action of loving God with all of one’s might, would, mind, soul, and heart is a product of a sincere faith in and love for God but the faith came first and brought salvation. The works are a result of a living a life consistent with God’s holiness, the one who gave the salvation.

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There are three verses that teach that we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification (Note: The red letters are in reference to Sanctification, and the letters in blue, are in reference to Justification).

Verse #1.


(Note: Verse 12, says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Verses 16-17 in 2 Thessalonians 2 mentions faith and works in context, as well).

Verse #2.


(Note on John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" is to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in Jesus and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed; This lines up with Matthew 7:26-27 when Jesus basically says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.).

Verse #3.


(Note: Most Christians believe that the phrase "justified by faith” is dealing with salvation; If this is what you believe, you must then also be consistent with the use of this word "justified," and we should use this one word in the same way in relation to works.).

To recap:

#1. God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit (living holy by God's power), and a belief in the truth.
#2. We need to hear His Word (obey it), and believe on Him that sent Jesus.
#3. We are justified by works, and not by faith alone.

NotreDame said:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son and who lever believes Him will not perish but will have everlasting life.” Belief, not works, but belief, faith, saves.

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When you read John 3:16, you also have to read John 3:20 that says everyone who does evil hates the light and neither comes to the light unless their deeds are reproved. Meaning the Spirit will convict a person of their sin if their deeds are reproved.

John 16:8-9 says, “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;”

The Spirit will convict us to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and to forsake these sins. For obviously if a person does not change their ways, they are not really sorry in sinning against God. For that would be like a man who cheats on his wife and just tells her he is sorry and then he goes right back out and cheats on her again the next day. Is he really sorry or is he paying lip service? Remember, not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father (See: Matthew 7:21). For the will of God (or the Father) is our sanctification or holy living (See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Also, the apostle John made it clear that works are necessary part of salvation.

John said if you walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Okay. In short.... we must walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. What does walking in the light mean? Well, according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11, walking in the light = loving your brother. So we have to love our brother (Which is a work - See 1 John 3:18) in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. This is confirmed in the fact that 1 John 3:10 says that he that does not love his brother is not of God. Note: It also says he that does not righteousness is not of God, either. So again, if we are of God, we will do righteousness. If we are of God, we are saved. John says if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (See: 1 John 3:15).

NotreDame said:

No. Neither verse says anything regarding “initial” salvation. As a matter of fact, there translation is devoid of any Greek word of “initial.” You are conjuring up a doctrine not supported by the words of the verses.

Paul doesn’t ever say anything about “initial” salvation. Initial salvation is a doctrine not reconciled with the text of these verse or any of the verses you cite.

What Greek word is used by Paul that means “initial”? Identify the Greek word Paul used that means “initial.”

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Have you ever heard of synonyms before? They are related words. You usually look these up in a Thesaurus. In this case, instead of a singular word saying the same thing, this would be a string of words saying the same thing as the phrase: “Initial Salvation.” For we know Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial Salvation based on the context. The context is Ephesians 2:1. It says:


Who has been quickened? The believer. How many times is the believer quickened? Just one time. When does that happen? When the believer first receives Jesus Christ as their Savior (i.e. Initial Salvation). Ephesians 2:8 itself tells us about how it refers to Initial Salvation, as well.


It says by grace we are saved and it is the gift of God. How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time, right? The word “saved” is the past tense and not present tense. This suggests a one time past event of being saved for the first time. Just read through Ephesians 2 and it will give you the feel that this is talking about “Initial Salvation.” For Ephesians 2 compares one's old life with the new and it changed by God's grace and mercy. So I beg to differ.

In fact, I can say that most of Christianity is the one who is conjuring up their own doctrine. They say “faith alone” and yet the only time we see these words mentioned, it is proof that we are not justified by faith alone. James 2:24 says,


Same word “justified” is used in reference to both works and faith. Most Christians believe that being justified by faith is dealing with salvation. Yet, when it comes to James 2:24, they come up with all sorts of excuses to undo what James says. Why? Because they don't like what he says. It's easier to just have a mental acknowledgement of the Savior and do nothing for their Lord.

You said:

No, Paul’s statement is unequivocal. Paul says “not by works” for salvation. Period. Paul doesn’t distinguish between any kinds of salvation. Your doctrine is contradictory to Paul’s teaching.

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Then the Bible contradicts itself and we then cannot trust it. But if the Bible does not contradict itself, then there is a logical explanation. Paul is referring to “Works ALONE” without God's grace. Why would Paul even say something like this? Did he just pull this idea out of his head for no good reason? No. See, you don't seem to understand what happened at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15. Certain Jews wanted Gentile Christians to first be circumcised in order to be saved. They also wanted them to keep the Law of Moses, as well. Okay. So if a Christian thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, then that would mean that they would be making the Law or a work the basis and foundation of their salvation (Instead of having faith in Jesus Christ and His grace).

You also seem to fail to recognize the difference between verse 9 and verse 10. Yes, both are called “work” but they are not the same kind of works. Verse 9 is the kind of work a man would boast in himself in doing. This is a Man Directed Work. Verse 10 is referring to a God directed work done through the believer because we know that God is the One who does the good work through us according to Philippians 2:13. So obviously Paul is not referring to all kinds of works in verse 9. For verse 10 is the kind of work we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works we should walk in. They are not the kind of works that we would boast in ourselves by doing them. Any good works a believer does is God doing that good work through them. So all praise, glory, and honor go unto God and not themselves.

NotreDame said:

Nope. John verse doesn’t. “24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” John is asserting it is hearing and believing that results in “eternal life.” There’s not one mention to different kinds of salvation. There’s no reference to works. None. You have espoused a doctrine not supported by the plain text.

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No. Not true. The phrase: “hears my word” means to “obey” in John 5:24.

The context supports obedience. For John 5:29 says,


Also see John 8:47 and read a little of the context before it. Jesus said to the Jews that they did the lusts of their father the devil and then Jesus said he that is of God hears (obeys) God's words. Obviously the Jews could hear what Jesus was saying, but they did not obey the Lord.

NotreDame said:

Seemingly, James is contradicted by Paul. “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Paul says, “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God...For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.”

Paul clearly argues Abraham was justified because of his faith. Paul also argued, from the example of Abraham, it is faith which justifies us, not works.

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Notice that Paul brings up circumcision. This was the problem that was going on back then. Again, there were Jews who wanted the Gentile Christians to be circumcised in order to be saved. So the point here is how one first gets saved. Paul is concerned with fighting against this false belief and so he makes his case that Abraham was first justified by faith and not by works. But you fail to realize the Abraham had to be later circumcised, though (Under the Old Covenant).


So if Abraham refused to later be circumcised, he would have been cut of from God's covenant. Granted today, under the New Covenant, circumcision is no longer a requirement. But in the Old Covenant, it was a requirement.

NotreDame said:

You ostensibly seek to reconcile the paradox between Paul and James by this Biblically unsound doctrine of two salvations. There is another more rational reconciling of Paul and James which doesn’t require this vacuous idea of two salvations.

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That's because there is a side of salvation that you ignore.
For the Bible is clear that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

NotreDame said:

The other approach is to say James is discussing Paul’s theme of “12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.”

James’ is asserting a faith in Jesus will yield works. The works are a manifestation and reflection of a faith in Jesus.

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Then if that is the case, and works will always follow, then works are a necessary component of salvation. That is like trying to disconnect a caterpillar from being a butterfly. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Paul says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12. This involves works because verse 13 talks about how God wills to do of His good pleasure through us (i.e. good works). For if salvation was all about believing in Jesus then there would be no fear of God. One can sin and still be saved and there would be no fear. We know by the Bible that the fear of the Lord men depart from evil (See: Proverbs 16:16).

NotreDame said:

Paul’s remarks begin with a salvation already given and people are to work out with God how the salvation will be reflected and manifested as fruit and light to the world, based on what pleases God.

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John the baptist said:
“The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

Jesus said:
“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).

Jesus saiid:
“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

NotreDame said:

Now, as soon as you can give me a Greek translation of wording that in Greek, translated to English, means two salvations, and initial salvation and some subsequent kind of salvation, then your view isn’t supported by the text of the Bible.

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This is the kind of excuse I get when someone does not like what the Bible says in English. Do you honestly know more than the 47 translators of the KJB? Does God's Word (the Bible) require us to go back to a more ancient and dead language to understand the Bible? Does not James say that God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith? Is the poor guy the fat cat scholar? In fact, Jesus said beware of the scribes. The scribes are those who “tran-scribed” (transcribed) the Scriptures. Who tran-scribes or translates the Scriptures today? Scholars. So this would be the scribe of our day. Jesus said not to trust them implicitly because he said to beware of the scribes. Most churches today just accept blindly what their pastor says or what some scholar says, and they do not study to show themselves approved unto God. They do not have the Anointing whereby they do not need any man to teach them.

MMXX said:

Here's a literally orthodox view:

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Sorry, he was very irritating to listen to. So I did not watch all of what he said, but I did catch that he talked about demons. James says, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” (James 2:19). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Paul says in Galatians 6:8-9 that if one sows to the flesh (sin) they will reap corruption, but if one sows to the Spirit, they will reap everlasting life. Verse 9 continues and says we will reap if we do not to faint (grow tired) in well doing (good works). Paul describes a characteristic of false teachers in that they can deny God by a lack of works. But it is even more than just having good works. It is living holy by God's power. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Jesus says if your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees you will no wise enter the kingdom of Heaven (See: Matthew 5:20). Jesus was not talking about having a belief alone in Him. For the sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) was heavily focused on how to live righteously.

My encouragement to you and all is stop listening to these kinds of people and to just read your Bible under the guidance of God alone (by asking the Lord to open your eyes to His Word by the Spirit). You have to get out from under their thinking that they want you to hold to. We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

MMXX said:

Here's a much shorter more subdued version of it.

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That's great. Their belief has nothing to do with what I believe the Bible says on sin and salvation. The Orthodox don't believe sin condemns a believer. The same is true for Protestants. But they both are not reading and believing their Bible on this particular topic.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).