bpd_stl

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This thread has really gone out-of-topic, IMHO! Back to the OP question: it's easy to look into to past with hindsight and see where mistakes...even tragic mistakes/misjudgments were made. Try putting ourselves in the situation w/o the benefit of centuries of analysis (pro or con).

Christians made up a very sizable (but significant) minority of the Roman Empire in Constantine's time. However, there were growing dissenting factions ("heresies") and no sort of centralized authority "with teeth" to unify the Church and affirm with the force of law the Apostolic Tradition. The bishops needed a "third party" to unify the Church and it's doctrine.

The deal was made. the somewhat sympathetic Constantine made it possible (vis-vis the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea), if only to consolidate his sole rule over the Empire. It was only under Theodosius that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire (delivering us the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople). Like Constantine, he also wanted to consolidate his power.

That's the bargain we can all judge with centuries of distance: the bishops worked with politicians in order to rid the Church of heresy...just as long as the politicians had something to gain from it. Sound familiar?
 
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Thomas White

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Why wouldn't I say that? Those are not names for God ,well none that I have heard.
I don't personally think any of us are worthy of uttering the actual name of God. I mean we say Jesus Christ, and He is our Lord, but Jesus spoke of being sent by The Father, and I do not feel that the Father's name should be spoken by humans. It is totally disrespectful. By never saying it, we keep the commandment of never using it in vain.
And did you say Vater?

Those are all words referring to God, Jesus, or Father in languages other than English. English-speaking Christians are only a very small part of the Christian world.
 
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The Liturgist

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Your question deserves a long reply, that addresses both the scholarly, linguistic aspect in the context of Eastern Christianity and the history of religion in the Middle East, and a theological reply, about the true nature of our God vs. what Muslims believe.

I think the article has interesting arguments on early Islamic history, and the possible sources Muhammed drew from when creating his religion (under diabolical influence) but fails in one crucial respect, that being a distinction has to be drawn between the false god worshipped by Muslims, who we as Christians do not worship, and the generic Semitic word stem ALH, from which we get El, Elohim, and Alaha, which are all names used exclusively by Jews and Christians to refer to God, El being Hebrew and Alaha Easr Syriac Aramaic (or in West Syriac, there is another vowel shift like I mentioned previously; going from Hebrew to Classical Aramaic there is a shift from E to A which we see in Ben becoming Bar, and Elohim or El becoming Alaha; West Syriac Aramaic speakers replace non-consonantal As with Os. (Aleph is regarded as a consonant in the Semitic orthography for reasons I don’t fully understand, so in Classical Syriac script, God is written ALH; the intermediate vowels are omitted in the ancient Semitic writing systems)

So a West Syriac speaker, who is going to be a Christian almost certainly, would say Aloho rather than Alaha, just as the West Syriac form of “My Lord” is Mor rather than Mar. West Syriac also has five vowels vs. seven in East.

Now, statistically, the largest number of Christians in the Middle East do speak Arabic as their primary language; of these, the Copts use Coptic while praying but have less knowledge of it than Syriac Christians so are more likely to use the word “Allah”; West Syriac Christians were massively killed by the Ottoman Genocides against Christians in 1915 and most West Syriac Christians do not use Syriac but rather Arabic as their vernacular language (but several pockets of West Syriac speakers do remain, for example, there are a number of Syriac Orthodox Christians who speak Turoyo, a West Syriac Dialect). On the whole, most Syriac Orthodox in the Middle East speak Arabic in the vernacular, and the same is also true of Chaldean Catholics, but both groups are highly likely to refer to God as “Alaha” in the case of the Chaldeans and some Iraqi Syriac Orthodox, and “Aloho” elsewhere. Only the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East have a majority of congregants who speak Syriac, or rather a derivative dialect called Modern Assyrian Eastern Neo-Aramaic.

This takes us to the Maronites, who spoke Syriac historically and still use some Syriac phrases in worship, but in the vernacular are highly likely to pray to our Christian God as Allah.

Then we have the “Rum”, or “Romans”, Arabic speaking Chalcedonian Christians who were in ancient times allied with the Roman Empire and are usually of a mix of Greek and Semitic ancestry, who are divided into two groups: Melkite Catholics, and members of the four Eastern Orthodox churches in the Middle East, of which the most prominent and Arabic speaking is the Antiochian Orthodox Church (the Patriarchate of Antioch), which is found in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. The other three tend to be more Greek, tend to import clergy from Greece, and tend to be Hellenic. But the Antiochians and Melkite Catholics are certainly likely to use the word “Allah” to refer to God in a generic context.

So the error the article makes and that some Christians make is the logical fallacy of composition. They assume that Allah is an exclusively Islamic word which is proper name and only a proper name for the false Islamic deity. In fact this is not the case; the Islamic creed literally translates to “There is no God but God and Muhammed is His prophet.” The Muslims believe their false god is the one originally worshipped by Christians and Jews but that Christianity and Judaism became corrupted doctrinally.

There is nothing objectionable or offensive about Middle Eastern Arabic speaking Christians referring to our God in the generic Arabic word “Allah” when they are praying to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. We are talking about Christians who believe in Jesus Christ, and are also the most martyred and persecuted Christians at present. The status of the Christian community everywhere in the Middle East is endangered, as members like @prodromos , @Pavel Mosko and @dzheremi can attest. So the idea these Christians who are being slaughtered by terrorist cells derived from ISIS and Al Qaeda are worshipping the same Allah that the Muslims worship is absurd. The sole reason why the word Allah is used in Arabic to refer to God is Arabic is closely related to Aramaic; the triconsonantal Semitic stem ALH instead of being Alaha becomes Allah.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ did speak Aramaic, Gallilean Aramaic; I don’t know what the word for God is best rendered in for that specific dialect; there was a member on this site, @SteveCaruso, who was an Aramaic scholar with a lot of expertise in the Gallilean dialect, but I believe he is inactive. Nonetheless he might be worth a Google. However, it is likely that when our Savior Jesus Christ said God in a generic context, and not by the name YHWH, he would have said El, El-Elyon or Elohim in formal liturgical contexts and Alaha or some variation on Alaha elsewhere. Just as He would have used the word “Bar” to refer to a Son.

So with that out of the way, as long as we are absolutely clear that the word Allah is legitimately used by Christians, severely persecuted Christians we must stress, to refer to our God, and indeed, these severely persecuted Middle Eastern Christian communities are also the most ancient in Christendom for reasons of geographical proximity to the Holy Land and contain the most Christians descended from ancient Jewish converts, hence the retention of Jewish last names among many, I will say the god worshipped by Muslims, colloquially referred to in the West as Allah, is a false god.

Now, why do we in the West tend to refer to the Islamic deity as Allah? Well, because Muslims regard Classical Arabic as a holy language and it is a violation of Islamic principles in general to pray in another language, in most sects of Islam. This is why regardless of what Islamic country you are in, whether it is Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Iran, or a more distant place with a different native tongue, like Burkina Faso or Indonesia, the prayers in the mosques are going to be in some attempt at Classical Arabic. A good analogy would be the historic use of Latin in the Roman Catholic Church as the main liturgical language in the Roman Rite until the reforms post-Vatican II.

Now, as much as the Muslims might wish otherwise, they don’t own the Arabic language, which is a beautiful language historically widely spoken by Christians, Jews and Samaritans, among other religions, nor do they own Arabs as an ethnicity; as I said earlier most ethnically Arab Christians are members of the Antiochian Orthodox or Melkite Catholic Church, while many other ethnic groups like Maronites, Chaldeans and Copts use Arabic for vernacular speech.

In the case of Coptic Christians, the reason Coptic was supplanted by Arabic as the everyday language is particularly tragic: about a thousand years ago, after Egypt had been ruled by Muslims for a few hundred years, there was a cruel Caliph who enacted harsh laws persecuting the Christians of Egypt, which included cutting out the tongue of anyone heard speaking Coptic! It’s a miracle the Coptic language survived in the safety of their Christian worship and has been preserved that way.

But again, to reiterate, the Islamic god referred to by Muslims as Allah is not the same God we Christians worship. We worship the holy trinity, God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe God has three persons. We believe the Son was the Messiah, and died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the third day. We believe God is love, infinitely merciful and forgiving to those who seek Him, and so interested in our welfare that His only begotten Son sacrificed his own life so as to be a ransom for many. God died and then rose from the grave so we could do likewise.

Muslims reject all of these beliefs. Because Christians call our God Allah, because they speak Arabic, and Arabic Christianity predates Islam by centuries, many centuries, in fact, Arabs were among the earliest converts to Christians, so we could say Arabic Christianity began in 33 AD and Islam 600 years later, I don’t think we Christians should be as tolerant as we are of people using the word Allah to signify the Islamic devil-god. I think we might consider an idea to call their false god, who I believe to be demonic, “Lalala” instead, so as to avoid inadvertently taking the name of our Lord in vain, for whatever word Christians of different languages use to refer to God should be held by us as sacred.

Now, my own theory on the false Islamic devil-god, is one that in some countries would probably get me jailed for Islamophobia or some nonsense. And that’s not the case; I have many Muslim friends and I pray for them, that they might be delivered from their error and find the peace of Jesus Christ.

Specifically, unlike our Christian God, or Allah as He is properly referred to by Arab Christians, the Islamic devil god who I propose we call Baal or blahblah or Beelzebub or whatever floats our respective boats, is I think a demon. A demon who impersonated the Archangel Gabriel, and then possessed or influenced Muhammed for a time. The result is extremely tragic. Muhammed was studying Christianity, but whoever tried to catechize him got the basic facts so wrong that Muhammed believed the Virgin Mary was part of the Trinity! So his encounter with heretics did not help him.

The Muslims in general, with some exceptions, do not believe in a Trinity, but believe in a Unitarian conception of god. Their god is believed to have no attributes and to be completely removed from us. Any form of anthropomorphology (applying human traits to God) was rejected by several medieval Islamic theologians as being inherently idolatrous. Their god is an impersonal being who demands unconditional submission, commands revenge rather than forgiveness, does not identify himself or is not identified as love, and in general the decisions of their god are not open to human questioning. Their god is completely arbitrary with no specific sympathy for his creation in general, only for those who follow his laws given in the Quran and worship him exclusively.

A very different being from the God we Christians worship, including Arab speaking Christians. So pray for the Muslims, because even if the assertion the article you linked to is wrong, and the Muslim demon-god-imposter they refer to as “Allah” is not the same demon as Baal was (Psalm 96:5 in the Greek Septuagint translation reads “The gods of the gentiles are demons”), it does not matter, because ultimately the Muslims have been deceived by the agencies of Satan into worshipping a distorted idol rather than the true God who died on the Cross for our sins.

And pray also for the Arabic speaking Christians who worship the real Allah, that being God the Father, His Word and Only begotten Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, our Helper (Paraklete).

We should even pray for those who persecute the Christians in the Middle East because Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us. How difficult a commandment that is! And we must not allow the devil to persuade us into hating Muslims, for it is bad enough he persuaded them to hate us.
 
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The Liturgist

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This thread has really gone out-of-topic, IMHO! Back to the OP question: it's easy to look into to past with hindsight and see where mistakes...even tragic mistakes/misjudgments were made. Try putting ourselves in the situation w/o the benefit of centuries of analysis (pro or con).

Christians made up a very sizable (but significant) minority of the Roman Empire in Constantine's time. However, there were growing dissenting factions ("heresies") and no sort of centralized authority "with teeth" to unify the Church and affirm with the force of law the Apostolic Tradition. The bishops needed a "third party" to unify the Church and it's doctrine.

The deal was made. the somewhat sympathetic Constantine made it possible (vis-vis the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea), if only to consolidate his sole rule over the Empire. It was only under Theodosius that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire (delivering us the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople). Like Constantine, he also wanted to consolidate his power.

That's the bargain we can all judge with centuries of distance: the bishops worked with politicians in order to rid the Church of heresy...just as long as the politicians had something to gain from it. Sound familiar?

This is basically what I said in my earlier reply to the OP, so we are of one mind. And @Jaxxi , I think I would agree with that Theodosius ought not to have made Christianity the state religion and banned the other religions. Although it was good that he removed the Altar of Victory from the Senate.

I believe in freedom of religion; I am not sure if I believe in the separation of church and state because part of me feels like America could be a better country if Christianity in general was declared the official religion, but the founding fathers of the US feared that such a situation would inevitably lead to sectarian persecution, and I think it possible that the idea of a religiously plural society is ideal, in order to ensure a freedom of religion and to prevent the State from controlling ecclesiastical affairs.
 
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Philip_B

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Christians made up a very sizable (but significant) minority of the Roman Empire in Constantine's time.
Generally estimated at 8% at the time of the Edict of Milan in 314 AD.

However, there were growing dissenting factions ("heresies") and no sort of centralized authority "with teeth" to unify the Church and affirm with the force of law the Apostolic Tradition. The bishops needed a "third party" to unify the Church and it's doctrine.
Of course Arianism was the catalytic Issue and the the Synod of Cordova it was resolved to ask Constantine to call a Universal Synod to sort it out. [/QUOTE]

The deal was made. the somewhat sympathetic Constantine made it possible (vis-vis the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea), if only to consolidate his sole rule over the Empire.
I think it is reasonable to see the pragmatic side of Constantine on the issue, as he saw in Christianity a religion that could traverse the Republic, however a divided Church suggested a divided Empire, which was not in his plans.

That's the bargain we can all judge with centuries of distance: the bishops worked with politicians in order to rid the Church of heresy...just as long as the politicians had something to gain from it. Sound familiar?
Good observation. The letter they conveyed the Edict of Milan to the Eastern part of the Empire, at the hand of Licinius, contained these words:

Wherefore, for this our indulgence, they ought to pray to their God for our safety, for that of the republic, and for their own, that the commonwealth may continue uninjured on every side, and that they may be able to live securely in their homes.​
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Now our Lord Jesus Christ did speak Aramaic, Gallilean Aramaic; I don’t know what the word for God is best rendered in for that specific dialect; there was a member on this site, @SteveCaruso, who was an Aramaic scholar with a lot of expertise in the Gallilean dialect, but I believe he is inactive. Nonetheless he might be worth a Google. However, it is likely that when our Savior Jesus Christ said God in a generic context, and not by the name YHWH, he would have said El, El-Elyon or Elohim in formal liturgical contexts and Alaha or some variation on Alaha elsewhere. Just as He would have used the word “Bar” to refer to a Son

That's a name I've read about about a bit recently when looking into Aramaic and Syriac (I've read articles on his Blog etc.). I believe I read some of his stuff on Peshitta.org 15+ years ago when that web site was active.


Yeah there is an Aramaic word for God that is like "Alah" that sounds nearly like Allah. I kind of thought it was related to the Hebrew word Elah, since it is very similar to that too. I think my Hebrew teacher said that Allah was a plural of majesty that came from strengthening the word stem, and other Semitic languages do similar kinds of things.


But languages are pretty much my weakest subject in Seminary type studies.
 
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The Liturgist

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That's a name I've read about about a bit recently when looking into Aramaic and Syriac (I've read articles on his Blog etc.). I believe I read some of his stuff on Peshitta.org 15+ years ago when that web site was active.


Yeah there is an Aramaic word for God that is like "Alah" that sounds nearly like Allah. I kind of thought it was related to the Hebrew word Elah, since it is very similar to that too. I think my Hebrew teacher said that Allah was a plural of majesty that came from strengthening the word stem, and other Semitic languages do similar kinds of things.


But languages are pretty much my weakest subject in Seminary type studies.

Actually peshitta.org is run by a Peshitta primary source advocate who believes incorrectly that the Greek New Testament was translated from the Peshitta. This is an error because the Classical Syriac dialect in which the Peshitta is written did not exist at the time of Christ, and it is from a different geographical area.

Rather he agreed with the scholarly consensus, backed by philological research, that our Lord would have spoken Gallilean Aramaic and also one would assume Judean Aramaic, which are related to Classical Syriac Aramaic but not the same.

So I personally think it’s fair to say that the Peshitta is a useful translation because it renders Aramaic idioms that may have been unclear in the Greek original when that Greek translation was translated into other languages like Latin, Coptic, Ge’ez, Armenian and so on. It, and the Vulgate Latin translation of the Bible, are really invaluable because they provide us with a Patristic “snapshot” of the Greek New Testament, and it shows us how the Early Church would have translated the Bible in general, when it was done well (there were other Syriac translations and the Vulgate was preceeded by the Vetus Latina, but the former were unpopular among Syriac speakers because of the use of complex language, not unlike how I write; “Peshitta” means simple. So if I lived back then and were a Syriac speaker I think it is a safe assumption the translators of the Peshitta would not have invited me to join them, given my enthusiasm for pushing the English language to its syntactical and semantic extremes through the use of complex sentence structures and altiloquent grammar. :p

The Vetus Latina on the other hand was replaced as the main Latin Bible because it was widely believed by the early Roman Church, who had implemented it quickly under Archbishop (Pope) Victor in the 2nd century in order to conform to his desire for a vernacular translation and liturgy so that the Roman church would be more accessible to the people of Rome and the Western Empire, where the educated knew Greek but common folk tended to speak Latin. Parts of it survive however in our Western liturgical heritage because, being composed in classical rather than vulgar Latin, it is frankly prettier. For example, “Gloria in excelsis deo” is from the Vetus Latina; the Vulgate renders this “Gloria in altissimus deo” which I think we can agree lacks the same ring. Classical Latin, the language of Cicero, was very beautiful, in my opinion.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Actually peshitta.org is run by a Peshitta primary source advocate who believes incorrectly that the Greek New Testament was translated from the Peshitta. This is an error because the Classical Syriac dialect in which the Peshitta is written did not exist at the time of Christ, and it is from a different geographical area.

Yeah I know. I think that was quite common in earlier days. That actually was one of the peculiar things about ACE at least in earlier days, and I hear the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch years back believed in something similar.

It is very Jewish, as in the Jews believed their language was primordial. And you see the same thing in some of the Syriac works like Book of the Bee, and Cave of Treasurers where they proclaim that Aramaic was spoken in the Garden of Eden.

OF course people like George Lamsa have also had their hands in things making lots of arguments based on comparative religion. In general the language of the founder of the religion has always been the one that its Holy writings are written in. Christianity kind of is that rare kind of exception, but some of the Hebrew roots can make really elaborate and detailed arguments based on textual variants in the ancient Greek codexes, the differences in manuscript disposal traditions between east and west (defective manuscripts in the East were burned, while they were buried in the West giving the west a big advantage when it comes to antiquity studies).


Steve Caruso really made a great case for what your talking about the actual dialectical differences between Western Syriac and Eastern Syriac. Probably the biggest thing, I got from him is the famous "Rope through the Eye of the needle" translation popularized by George Lamsa was based on a 1200 AD Syriac Lexicon! (Yes the more traditional Talmudic translation that everybody uses is correct). But when your bored check this out...


http://aramaicnt.org/articles/problems-with-peshitta-primacy/
 
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The Liturgist

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Yeah I know. I think that was quite common in earlier days. That actually was one of the peculiar things about ACE at least in earlier days, and I hear the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch years back believed in something similar.

It is very Jewish, as in the Jews believed their language was primordial. And you see the same thing in some of the Syriac works like Book of the Bee, and Cave of Treasurers where they proclaim that Aramaic was spoken in the Garden of Eden.

OF course people like George Lamsa have also had their hands in things making lots of arguments based on comparative religion. In general the language of the founder of the religion has always been the one that its Holy writings are written in. Christianity kind of is that rare kind of exception, but some of the Hebrew roots can make really elaborate and detailed arguments based on textual variants in the ancient Greek codexes, the differences in manuscript disposal traditions between east and west (defective manuscripts in the East were burned, while they were buried in the West giving the west a big advantage when it comes to antiquity studies).


Steve Caruso really made a great case for what your talking about the actual dialectical differences between Western Syriac and Eastern Syriac. Probably the biggest thing, I got from him is the famous "Rope through the Eye of the needle" translation popularized by George Lamsa was based on a 1200 AD Syriac Lexicon! (Yes the more traditional Talmudic translation that everybody uses is correct). But when your bored check this out...


Problems With Peshitta Primacy

I actually read that article many years ago, and its a good one. By the way, Peshitta primacy has never been an asserted doctrine of either the Syriac Orthodox Church or the Assyrian Church of the East or the Ancient Church of the East, or any of the related sui juris Eastern Catholic churches. It rather is an opinion some members of those churches like George Lamsa came up with and decided to assert, based on the logical fallacy, the non sequitur idea that because Our Lord spoke Aramaic, and the Peshitta is written in Aramaic, it had to be the original and not a translation, even though the records of the Church of the East and the Syriac Orthodox Church contain a history of its translation, and even though Jesus would not have spoken Classical Syriac. The difference between the two is dialectical, so a Syriac speaker would have great difficulty in understanding our Lord, or a modern day Assyrian like George Lamsa, since the current vernacular Syriac dialects have changed substantially since the era in which the Peshitta was written. In fact when Assyrian priests read lessons from the Peshitta in their liturgy, they have to mentally translate from Classical Syriac to Modern Assyrian Eastern Neo-Aramaic vernacular.
 
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timothyu

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That's the bargain we can all judge with centuries of distance: the bishops worked with politicians in order to rid the Church of heresy...just as long as the politicians had something to gain from it. Sound familiar?
Yes sounds like man self justifying themselves and their creations. The church nor the religion nor the doctrines matter. Only the scripture matters. Only the scripture will remain to be relevant at the end of days. God is not interested in how you identify yourself.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes sounds like man self justifying themselves and their creations. The church nor the religion nor the doctrines matter. Only the scripture matters. Only the scripture will remain to be relevant at the end of days. God is not interested in how you identify yourself.

Surely what matters is the Truth, which is canonical scripture with canonical interpretation.
 
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timothyu

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Surely what matters is the Truth, which is canonical scripture with canonical interpretation.
The scripture is God's. The rest is man's and of no value to God (other than man as a vessel to forward His scripture wherein lies the only truth).
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Surely what matters is the Truth, which is canonical scripture with canonical interpretation.

OK what do you about Assyrians and Soul sleep? I ran across that a year or two ago with some ACE YouTube videos and pod casts. I was surprised by it initially. It didn't fit what I knew of that church's teaching. But it came from Syriac Fathers teachings etc.

I'll try to find that again..

Well I think that sermon or pod cast got pulled for obvious reasons, but here is something that gets at what I was talking about.


The Sleep of the Soul in the Early Syriac Church on JSTOR
 
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The Liturgist

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OK what do you about Assyrians and Soul sleep? I ran across that a year or two ago with some ACE YouTube videos and pod casts. I was surprised by it initially. It didn't fit what I knew of that church's teaching. But it came from Syriac Fathers teachings etc.

I'll try to find that again..

I don’t, because its not actually their doctrine. I am close friends with a bishop in the main Assyrian Church of the East, as well as one of their most talented priests, and any time I have a question about doctrine, I will call them. In the past, some Assyrians did believe in unpopular doctrines like Apokatastasis, based on the writings of St. Isaac the Syrian, but the actual formal doctrine of the Assyrian church is bog-standard and much like the other Eastern churches, with very little difference. So a lot of what you are talking about is equivalent to Roman Catholics who believe in private revelations or things like Our Lady of Lourdes and Our Lady of Fatima; belief in these is not mandatory for Roman Catholics; it is permitted however.
 
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The scripture is God's. The rest is man's and of no value to God (other than man as a vessel to forward His scripture wherein lies the only truth).

Ok, how do you interpret the first chapter of the Gospel of John?

Also by the way you are a Nicene Christian, right? You accept the CF.com Statement of Faith?
 
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The scripture is God's. The rest is man's and of no value to God (other than man as a vessel to forward His scripture wherein lies the only truth).
The right interpretation of Scripture is also God's, which He gave to the Apostles, who in turn passed on that knowledge to their successors.
 
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timothyu

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The right interpretation of Scripture is also God's, which He gave to the Apostles, who in turn passed on that knowledge to their successors.
As each attempted to make it their own.. as proven by the very number of them.
 
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The Liturgist

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As each attempted to make it their own.. as proven by the very number of them.

If you go back to the early Church, there is an orthodox interpretation which even today most Christians everywhere will agree on, and those that don’t agree are from small or unusual denominations or non-denominational megachurches, who subscribe to interpretations which CF.com regards as heterodox.
 
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