Pope Francis backs same-sex civil unions

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SilverBear

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Heres the thing, who says x person is a bigot for expressing their view. It is only your opinion and the person who is expressing the belief is not doing so to be bigoted but has a genuine belief where their conscience required them to follow certain morals. This is a protected right even if you think its bigoted. But the point is who says they are bigoted in the first place. Anyone who does is just making a subjective opinion. There is no facts apart for someone elses moral sensibilities which is subjective anyway.
all this applies to you. Who are you to say a person critical of Court is wrong? It is only your opinion and the person who is expressing the belief is not doing so to be bigoted but has a genuine belief where their conscience required them to follow certain morals. Speaking against her is a protected right no matter what you think of it.

Like I said nearly 40% of people in Australia voted against same sex marriage. So are you saying that so many people are being bigoted. I don't think anyone can confidently say that every single one of those people are bigoted.
either bigoted or brainwashed by the lies and the fear mongering of the bigots
 
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stevevw

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No, I still don't get it. You seem to be asserting that there are only two possibilities: biblical morality or individual moral relativism.
No it doesnt necessarily follow that the Christian God is the source of moral values. IT just means for morals to be objective or absolute they need to come some from outside humans or the culture. But that has little to do with the claim that secular morality is relative or individual morality is subjective and making claims that someone is morally wrong holds little weight as its just an opinion or cultural view.

That is the point that secular society emphasizes so much that there are many moral points of view because morality is seen differently by different cultures and no ones moral perspective is right enough to condemn the other in the overall scheme of things. You can condemn them but that is only the individuals or cultures opinion. That individual or culture can turn around and say so what, I think your moral view is also wrong. Now we have a stalemate.
 
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stevevw

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Court has actively campaigned to restrict rights and freedoms and to promote and defend violence. Why do you feel it is all right when Court takes actions that case damage or attack or threaten individuals, their families and their associations reputation?
Court has not actively campaigned against LGBTI rights. Please provide evidence for this. In fact she has expressedly stated that she loves LGBTI people and has helped them with her charity that helps all people in need with food and essentials. The only reason she has been attacked including physically is because of her views.
 
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stevevw

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all this applies to you. Who are you to say a person critical of Court is wrong? It is only your opinion and the person who is expressing the belief is not doing so to be bigoted but has a genuine belief where their conscience required them to follow certain morals. Speaking against her is a protected right no matter what you think of it.
That is the most truthful thing you have said. Yes I agree except for one thing. when it comes to morals and beliefs it is only the person who is expressing the belief or opinion and yes this is just an opinion or personal belief that says nothing about it being true as a fact. But when someone makes a cliam like x person said something they didnt we can fact check this.

When someone makes a claim about something that can be checked factually or scientifically we can check it against objective measures. So when someone makes claims about transgender ideology like that there is no harm caused by the gender affirming treatments such as hormone therapy we can check this with medical facts which happen to show that there is harm caused. That then takes the personal claims out of the situation.

either bigoted or brainwashed by the lies and the fear mongering of the bigots
First you acknowledge that personal opinions dont mean that what is said is true so therefore this is just an unsubstanciated opinion of yours. Second we can fact check if every single person who voted against same sex marriage is bigoted or brainwashed.

But heres the ironic thing about your personal opinion. The fact that you call all those people bigoted or brainwashed without really knowing or confirming this in the first place makes you just as bigoted as those you claim are bigoted. You don't give any creedance for each individuals right to have their own conscience on this matter and assume the only reason they voted no was they were either being a bigot or were brain washed. Some who voted no did so not because of religious reasons.
 
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stevevw

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actually it does show that as anyone who would honestly look at the evidence could see.
Then how do you explain the twin studies which show one twin being trans or gay and the other not. If they were born that way then this would be a result of genetics and each two gets the same genetics. There may be some hormonal influences but that is not the comeplete reason. They say it is a combination of environmental and prenatal influences.
 
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SalemsConcordance

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actually it does show that as anyone who would honestly look at the evidence could see.
This is the largest meta-study that came out recently which finds (again) that the larger factor in homosexuality is in fact environmental. Which I would term propaganda and the natural product of a secular society with no moral grounding outside of "do what thou wilt." The gay population of the US is at about 3-4% of the total US population - a high mark of homosexual persons in history - with only 500k of those actually in a "gay marriage" union - which is .05% of the population after all of these decades.

If environmental causes leads to homosexuality, why is homosexuality increasing except for propaganda and culture? The truth is that this lifestyle is against God, and scientifically there is no basis for genetic causes.

No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality
The findings, which are published on 29 August in Science and based on the genomes of nearly 500,000 people, shore up the results of earlier, smaller studies and confirm the suspicions of many scientists: while sexual preferences have a genetic component, no single gene has a large effect on sexual behaviours.

Ganna and his colleagues also used the analysis to estimate that up to 25% of sexual behaviour can be explained by genetics, with the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors — a figure similar to the findings of smaller studies.

“This is a solid study,” says Melinda Mills, a sociologist at the University of Oxford, UK, who studies the genetic basis of reproductive behaviours.

But she cautions that the results may not be representative of the overall population — a limitation that the study authors acknowledge. The lion’s share of the genomes comes from the UK Biobank research programme and the consumer-genetics company 23andMe, based in Mountain View, California. The people who contribute their genetic and health information to those databases are predominantly of European ancestry and are on the older side. UK Biobank participants were between 40 and 70 years old when their data were collected, and the median age for people in 23andMe’s database is 51.

The study authors also point out that they followed convention for genetic analyses by dropping from their study people whose biological sex and self-identified gender did not match. As a result, the work doesn’t include sexual and gender minorities (the LGBTQ community) such as transgender people and intersex people.


Struggle for God - this is a great cross you were given, primarily by the culture and upbringing you were brought up in.
An Orthodox Christian's Struggle | A Russian Orthodox Church Website
As someone who has attractions to members of the same sex, and as a baptized and professing Orthodox, I have found myself in a spiritual "tug-of-war." The wisdom of the world seducively holds out its hand, inviting me to dive in and live this lifestyle. My faith and my Church, however, stand firm in the conviction that the homosexual life is not a normal life, nor a healthy life, nor a God-pleasing life. There really is no pressure, though, neither from the world or from God. Orthodox do not adhere to predestination. I have free will, as do all other sinners. I have the choice to live my way or God's way.

Research also has always show homosexuals suffer from more sexual molestation as children. Lord have mercy, they have a heavy cross to bear.
Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons - PubMed
 
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Kylie

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If environmental causes leads to homosexuality, why is homosexuality increasing except for propaganda and culture? The truth is that this lifestyle is against God, and scientifically there is no basis for genetic causes.

Perhaps because gay people no longer feel that they need to hide the fact that they are gay. Don't confuse increased visibility with increased incidence.
 
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SilverBear

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Court has not actively campaigned against LGBTI rights. Please provide evidence for this. In fact she has expressedly stated that she loves LGBTI people and has helped them with her charity that helps all people in need with food and essentials. The only reason she has been attacked including physically is because of her views.
in a June 17, 2017 interview with Vision Christian Radio she urged people go to their schools and actively fight the use of the anti-bullying program Safe Schools because it included LGBT youth as recipients of bullying. She stated that Safe Schools was a program authored by the devil and the “gay lobby” that was trying to “get the minds of children”.''

She advocated a boycott of Qantus airlines because the company extended benefits to same sex couple
 
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Kylie

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in a June 17, 2017 interview with Vision Christian Radio she urged people go to their schools and actively fight the use of the anti-bullying program Safe Schools because it included LGBT youth as recipients of bullying. She stated that Safe Schools was a program authored by the devil and the “gay lobby” that was trying to “get the minds of children”.''

She advocated a boycott of Qantus airlines because the company extended benefits to same sex couple

And here's a source: Australian tennis legend Margaret Court likens gay-rights activists to Hitler
 
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SilverBear

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Then how do you explain the twin studies which show one twin being trans or gay and the other not. If they were born that way then this would be a result of genetics and each two gets the same genetics. There may be some hormonal influences but that is not the comeplete reason. They say it is a combination of environmental and prenatal influences.

First you need to educate yourself on the basic principles of genetics. A trait being inborn is not the same as it being genetic. In twins the concordance between a genetic trait and the expression of that trait is rarely 100%. In identical twins eye color has a concordance of 98% Meaning two set of identical twins out of 100 will have different colored eyes. The concordance of homosexuality in identical twins is rather high. it is higher than the concordance of right/left handed which as a concordance rate of about 45%. Infant onset type 1 diabetes has a known genetic cause, it is a gene on chromosome 6, Yet in identical twins the concordance of diabetes is less than 30%
 
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stevevw

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Research also has always show homosexuals suffer from more sexual molestation as children. Lord have mercy, they have a heavy cross to bear.
Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons - PubMed
Yes this is true and this has been shown to be a big factor in why some people have difficulties with their gender and same sex attractions. But the sad thing is that under a transgender/gender ideology this factor is not allowed to be persued because a gender and sexual atraction affirming treatment policy has been pushed which discounts any other influence as being the cause.

Any medical professional who suggests or tries to persue this line of treatment risks losing their reputation and jobs because radicals will hunt them down and claim trans or homophobia and call them bigots. This seems a common ploy with activists and one I would suggest is dishonest and that denies these people proper and a full range of care treatemnets available that could help them.

Instead they are pushed down a road where for many in the future either find they have done irreversible damage to themselves in order to try and fit their body to their subjective mindset instead of attempting to have therapy to alter their mindset to accept their bodies. Activists falsely call this conversion therapy which is a misrepresentation of the facts in order to prevent these important alternative treatments. In all other medical areas we don't detroy the body to fit a mindset but treat the mind.

But activists don't want to know about this as they see it as acknowledgemnet that there is some psychological issues at play relating to why some become this way. To them its about protecting their ideology at all costs even if that means hurting some along the way.
 
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SilverBear

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This is the largest meta-study that came out recently which finds (again) that the larger factor in homosexuality is in fact environmental. Which I would term propaganda and the natural product of a secular society with no moral grounding outside of "do what thou wilt." The gay population of the US is at about 3-4% of the total US population - a high mark of homosexual persons in history - with only 500k of those actually in a "gay marriage" union - which is .05% of the population after all of these decades.
interesting fact same sex marriage has only been legal thorough out the country for 4 years

another interesting fact the US census bureau in 2018 says that there are over 1.5 million married same gendered couples. The number of opposite gender married couples in the United States for that same year was 59 million meaning that same sex couples account for 2% of all married couples in 2018. This was the last year i could find marriage data on.

fun fact: none of this has anything to do with sexual orientation being inborn


If environmental causes leads to homosexuality, why is homosexuality increasing except for propaganda and culture? The truth is that this lifestyle is against God, and scientifically there is no basis for genetic causes.
Who says it is increasing?

No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality
The findings, which are published on 29 August in Science and based on the genomes of nearly 500,000 people, shore up the results of earlier, smaller studies and confirm the suspicions of many scientists: while sexual preferences have a genetic component, no single gene has a large effect on sexual behaviours.
NO single gene. who in their right mind would thing that such a complex entity like sexual orientation would be controlled by a single gene?

To quote the lead researcher ANdrea Ganna:
“I'm pleased to announce there is no 'gay gene,'Rather, 'nonheterosexuality' is influenced by many tiny genetic effects.”


Struggle for God -
that is nice but has nothing to do with sexual orientation being inborn.

Research also has always show homosexuals suffer from more sexual molestation as children. Lord have mercy, they have a heavy cross to bear.
Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons - PubMed

The devil is, as always, in the details. Meta analysis of studies like the one you link to shows that prior to about the age of 12 LGBT individuals have the same level of molestation or any other kind of abuse as their heterosexual counterparts. However after age 12 the rate of all forms of abuse experienced by LGBT individuals skyrockets. There are several studies establishing that the increase in parental abuse for these children is linked to being outed or suspected of being LGBT.

Abuse doesn't cause someone to be LGBT...But being LGBT leads to a greatly increased risk of abuse
 
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SilverBear

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Any medical professional who suggests or tries to persue this line of treatment risks losing their reputation and jobs because radicals will hunt them down and claim trans or homophobia and call them bigots. This seems a common ploy with activists and one I would suggest is dishonest and that denies these people proper and a full range of care treatemnets available that could help them.
any evidence to support this claim?
 
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stevevw

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First you need to educate yourself on the basic principles of genetics. A trait being inborn is not the same as it being genetic. In twins the concordance between a genetic trait and the expression of that trait is rarely 100%. In identical twins eye color has a concordance of 98% Meaning two set of identical twins out of 100 will have different colored eyes. The concordance of homosexuality in identical twins is rather high. it is higher than the concordance of right/left handed which as a concordance rate of about 45%.
Actually the concordence seems to be less at around 20%. But even if it was 45% that still isnt enough as to substanciate a genetic basis for same sex orientation it would have to be 100% as any deviation especially over 50% means that it is more likly to be other factors.

As far as epigenetic influences in the expression of genes this is more complex in being able to establish the causes as there can be a number of influences on prenatal and early years of development. This can be mothers lifestyle including stresses, toxins, chemicals before and directly after birth ect. But none of this a true genetic cause as it doesnt change the underlying gene in the offspring. Its more likely an environmental of social influence as one of the papers below points to.

But even so these factors speak of unnatural affects that cause normal development to be affected and certainly dont support an argument that changes in sexual oritenation is a normal human variant by more likely a disturbed prenatal development that has caused a change to the usual trajectory. To say that homosexuality is a genetically normal variant seems aganst evolution of survival of the fittest and that species aim is to pass their genes onto the next generation as same sex relationships will not produce off springs.

On The Influence of Genetic Factors on the Formation of Homosexuality by Data of Twin Studies
Results of twin studies are presented; these demonstrate that in a number of cases genetic effects can play a role of mild predisposing factors for the development of homosexuality, but the main part in its formation is accounted for by psychological and social factors..
The opinion that genetic factors play the only and dominant role in the genesis of homosexuality does not hold water due to the fact that if it were so then their concordance for homosexuality in monozygotic twins would be 100 %, but it is not observed in reality. The studies conducted with the correct selection of examinees revealed 20 % of the concordance for homosexuality in male monozygotic twins and 24 % in female ones (Bailey, J.M., et al.

Gay Is Not All in the Genes
The results, published online this month in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, confirm earlier findings that identical twins are more concordant for same-sex behaviors than fraternal twins are but only modestly so: In men, genetic effects appeared to explain 34% to 39% of the differences between the two twin groups, whereas in women, genetics accounted for only about 18% to 19% of the difference--a finding consistent with other research showing that sexual orientation in women is not as rigidly determined as it is in men.
Gay Is Not All in the Genes
 
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stevevw

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Oh, the irony!
Well yes you would see it that way and I agree to a point that both religious belief and gender/transgender ideology are beliefs that are not based on reality or facts. But religion acknowledges this and seperates itself from the science. But gender/transgender ideology tries to pretend that it is science when its not as its a subjective mindset about ones gender identity.

But it tries to claim that a self identified idea of gender is actually the measure of a male or female instead of biological sex. So in that sense they both are based in unreal ideas whenm it comes to scientific facts.
 
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VirOptimus

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-snip- gender/transgender ideology are beliefs that are not based on reality or facts. -snip-

Gender/transgender ideology? Man, you really have no clue.

You only have your bigoted position because of your religion. You have no facts or science on your side.
 
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stevevw

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Margaret Court is one classy lady
Not that I am agreeing with Courts more radical apporach but if you read the article she talking about the Safe Schools Program as one example of how transgender ideology is being psuhed onto children and thuse this was seen by many as a form of brain indoctrination similar to how communist only allow certain narratives so that only one idea is being allwoed to be heard which will gradually cause people to believe in the lies.

She is not saying that transgender activists are like Hitler as in externmminating people but it is more like how the properganda machine was used to indoctrinate people into their ideas. On this count there are many non-religious people who agre. Programs like safe schools that pushed this ideology was even recognised by the government as over the top and pushing ideas that were not based in science. For example

Why children are being indoctrinated with gender ideology in kindergarten
Our school system has been conformed to a new reality by the political and social pressures around it. Douglas Murray in his book, ‘The Madness of Crowds’, tells us that a ‘postmodern vacuum’ has pulled into our society a new narrative of meaning. He writes:

The interpretation of the world through the lens of ‘social justice, identity group politics’ and ‘intersectionalism’ is probably the most audacious and comprehensive effort since the end of the Cold War at creating a new ideology.

We now have a cadre of teachers who are wholeheartedly dedicated to promoting Gender Ideology, the earlier the better.

Social justice activism has become the pedagogical driver by which Gender Ideology is promoted in schools.

It’s never too early to start teaching social justice, even before your child enters grade one. Anyone who questions the ’process or goal’ of social justice is sidelined or silenced quickly with powerful weapons of social coercion. Douglas Murray put it plainly;

. . . , anybody who got in the way of this new direction of travel found themselves mown down with astonishing vigour. The weapons at hand (accusations of racism, sexism, homophobia and finally transphobia) were all too easy to wield and there was no price to pay for wielding them unfairly, unjustifiably or indeed frivolously.


This kind of social activism which ‘justifies the means by its end’ is dangerous socially and politically.

We’ve seen it before. Hannah Arendt’s caution is applicable today:

Totalitarian solutions may well survive the fall of totalitarian regimes in the form of strong temptations which will come up whenever it seems impossible to alleviate political, social, or economic misery in a manner worthy of man.
Hannah Arendt – The Origins of Totalitarianism


Hannah Arendt knew what she was talking about and anyone with a child in the public education system is finding out.

Why children are being indoctrinated with gender ideology in kindergarten
 
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