Morality is objective, except when it isn't

coffee4u said:

Paul is not a wolf. His words are part of scripture.

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How do you know they should be part of scripture? Like we agreed, humans screw things up. We screw things up pretty quickly too. And God lets us.

coffee4u said:

Jesus did mention sexual sin. The women caught in adultery is a good example. John 8:1-11 It shows what our response as Christians should be. The men gathered around wanted her killed as per the Old Testament law. Jesus first made them look at themselves by saying “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” They all left because they knew they were all sinners.
Then he didn't just forgive her but said “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Him telling her to go and sin no more is very important to the entire exchange.

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I didn't say he never mentioned it. I'm talking about how people quote Him or Paul. Look at the effect Jesus' words have on people and the effect Paul's words have on people (where morality is concerned).

coffee4u said:

I think you have a right to claim your own painting but I think underneath it all we should acknowledge that it belongs to God first and that our talent to paint or sing or whatever it is comes from God. Or that should be the Christian response anyway.
You're an agnostic and your viewpoint will be different, I get that.

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Later in this post you're going to mention that feelings are misleading, and that's my point.

coffee4u said:

To me creating something out of nothing means the being- God- who created it controls every part of it.

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But it gets complicated when God lets the humans He created make choices. God can desire that we act a certain way, but that doesn't cause acting differently to become the incorrect way to act.

coffee4u said:

So, to be sure I have what you are saying correct, you are saying: Is someone running you over in a car intrinsically bad or do you just feel it is bad?

I believe it is both. It is intricately bad because God says that it is. But those feelings are also from God. He gives us the standard for what is good or bad. As humans we may not always feel in tune with those standards because we are fallen beings. We have free will and as such we may come up with our own standards. Feelings can be misleading because they are tied to our flesh.

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Well it's either intrinsically bad (bad all on it's own for it's own sake) or it's bad because God says so. If it's bad because God says so, then its badness is assigned, not intrinsic to the thing itself.

2PhiloVoid said:

I think you've misplaced me a bit. When it comes to deviance on the whole, I'm more about imitating those last several minutes of Ghost Rider 2 ... and if I had my way (which I know I won't until Christ comes back), I'd lasso my chain around the neck of the world inappropriate content industries [plural] and their related, organized economic environs [i.e. anything, anywhere even remotely similar in nature], and yank their multi-billion dollar bank account butts down to Gehenna for the damage they've caused to even just normal, straight relationships (oh, and families!).

And for that, I definitely won't apologize. Ever.

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See? It's all negativity. You're relishing in people being tormented in Hell.

Moral Orel said:

See? It's all negativity. You're relishing in people being tormented in Hell.

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So you mean to say you've seen Ghost Rider 2 ?

2PhiloVoid said:

So you mean to say you've seen Ghost Rider 2 ?

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Yeah, he saved one kid. He also killed a dude and sent another dude to Hell. And when you went on to talk about what you want to do in any detail, it didn't involve saving anyone. You were talking about personally dragging people into Hell!

Nihilist Virus said:

Words mean things. What you've written is the equivalent of saying that "Red sleeps faster than Saturday."

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There’s both subjective reasons and objective consequences to our moral choices, which is why morality is both subjective and objective. I think it’s extremely important to understand that.

Moral Orel said:

Yeah, he saved one kid. He also killed a dude and sent another dude to Hell. And when you went on to talk about what you want to do in any detail, it didn't involve saving anyone. You were talking about personally dragging people into Hell!

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F.Y.I. Ghost Rider 2, like Ghost Rider 1, is ... just a fictional movie. It's not real. Remember? And I'm pretty sure no criminals or Satanists were actually pulled into Gehenna (which isn't Hades) during the making of that film.

True Counterphobia said:

God gave us objective morality. God does not need (requirement) to operate at the same basic level of morality because God's idea of morality is much bigger than our conception of morality can be.

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If God's concept of morality is beyond human understanding, then we, as humans, have no choice but to judge His actions based on human morality... and by human standards, God occasionally falls short.

TLK Valentine said:

If God's concept of morality is beyond human understanding, then we, as humans, have no choice but to judge His actions based on human morality... and by human standards, God occasionally falls short.

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Which ethical system of human morality are we talking about here? There's more than one, y'know; and they all don't jive with one another. Kind of like how the gods of Greece whom Socrates referred to didn't jive with one another.

2PhiloVoid said:

Which ethical system of human morality are we talking about here? There's more than one, y'know; and they all don't jive with one another. Kind of like how the gods of Greece whom Socrates referred to didn't jive with one another.

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Take your pick, then. So long as you remember you are human, and not a god.

TLK Valentine said:

Take your pick, then. So long as you remember you are human, and not a god.

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Do you see the nonsense in what you just said?

It's time for you to take an Ethics class, my dear Valentine!

2PhiloVoid said:

Do you see the nonsense in what you just said?

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Not especially, no.

It's time for you to take an Ethics class, my dear Valentine!

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So long as you're not the professor, my dear Void...

TLK Valentine said:

Not especially, no.



So long as you're not the professor, my dear Void...

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Oh, don't worry. I won't be the professor. I quit that years ago!

Nihilist Virus said:

Words mean things. You can't be always sometimes X.

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Let me be very direct about what I am saying since you seem to not understand me.

God's objective morality is bigger than our objective morality so God doesn't have to play by the same rules that we do.

2PhiloVoid said:

F.Y.I. Ghost Rider 2, like Ghost Rider 1, is ... just a fictional movie. It's not real. Remember? And I'm pretty sure no criminals or Satanists were actually pulled into Gehenna (which isn't Hades) during the making of that film.

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Your fantasies about being the spirit of justice aren't real either. The point is that you're focused on revenge rather than doing something that is good for someone else.

Moral Orel said:

Your fantasies about being the spirit of justice aren't real either. The point is that you're focused on revenge rather than doing something that is good for someone else.

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Who says I'm focused on "revenge"? In the same way you're misconstruing Paul and his writings, I think you're doing the same here.

In fact, I have over 15,000 posts here on CF, so ... it's open forum. If anyone wants to find out if what your saying about me is true and that I "only" have express some notion that you deem constites "revenge" (one likely molded conceptually by you "only"), then I'd challenge them to do their homework and see if this bears out on the whole.

Frankly, I'm not concerned. Furthermore, I'd suggest that if you---or anyone else for that matter---think you're going to come onto CF and attempt to not only "down" Paul the Apostle (and thereby Christ) and also attempt to humanize and commend people's positive notions about the World P-industry and its various economic and organizational environs, you'd think twice before doing so.

I for one won't cooperate with any effort to do so, and I'll resist anyone who thinks they'll try to pawn it all off as a form of "legitimate work" and/or "freedom of expression," somehow contrivable by abusing arguments from the Euthyphro Dilemma.

Do I need to rearticulate this you?

True Counterphobia said:

Let me be very direct about what I am saying since you seem to not understand me.

God's objective morality is bigger than our objective morality so God doesn't have to play by the same rules that we do.

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Good for Him -- because by our rules, He doesn't always come out smelling like a rose.

How many objective moralities are there, by the way?

TLK Valentine said:

Good for Him -- because by our rules, He doesn't always come out smelling like a rose.

How many objective moralities are there, by the way?

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Objectivity is open to debate; but there are a lot of variously claimed "absolute" ethical notions out there, and this is the case even before any of us even thinks about cracking open a Bible to see what's all there.

2PhiloVoid said:

Objectivity is open to debate; but there are a lot of variously claimed "absolute" ethical notions out there, and this is the case even before any of us even thinks about cracking open a Bible to see what's all there.

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Which raises the question of whether there is any objective morality, let alone how many...