Morality is objective, except when it isn't

TLK Valentine

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I wasn't being snarky. I'm dead serious. I haven't sat down and counted verses or anything, but I've noticed that when people quote Jesus about how to live your life it's almost always some positive good thing you can do for others. And then Paul came along and when people quote him on how to live your life it's almost always about sex stuff you're not supposed to do. Some of which Jesus never bothered to even mention. I think he had his own hangups that he put into the religion.

There are a few theologians out there who theorized that Paul was in the closet, fighting against his own "forbidden" desires -- having spent a lifetime where his feelings would, if known, have meant death in this world and damnation in the next, he struggled with the "all is forgiven; just ask" attitude that Jesus seemed to espouse.

Bishop's Book Pictures Paul as a Homosexual : Controversy: He cites the apostle's own words as support for his theory. His main thesis is that the Bible is being neglected in mainstream Christianity because of the intellectual difficulties it poses for today's churchgoers.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Anachronistic interpretation. That's not what the characters of the time believed. Furthermore, that can be used to justify just about anything.

There’s no indication at all in the scriptures that David’s unborn child went to the place of suffering in Sheol. It’s never mentioned, so what makes you think they believed that he did?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Right, so you've grasped one horn of the dilemma. Based on your response, the follow-up question is, "Why can't God just forgive us all as an act of will?" If you don't know the answer to this question, your religion is pointless as far as you know.



Anachronistic interpretation. That's not what the characters of the time believed. Furthermore, that can be used to justify just about anything.



Atheists welcome the attacks because our logic is well founded. You seem to be having a difficult time keeping up with the conversation, or else you're just toying with me on purpose.

Ive had no difficulty at all, you seem to be the one who doesn’t understand God or Christianity not me and no I’m not toying with you, your the one who came to a Christian website to stir up trouble. It’s quite obvious who the troll is here.
 
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TLK Valentine

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There’s no indication at all in the scriptures that David’s unborn child went to the place of suffering in Sheol. It’s never mentioned, so what makes you think they believed that he did?

Probably because Sheol was the default afterlife for the ancient Hebrews -- you had to be pretty darn special for God to take you anywhere else after you died.

The whole "Good people go up; bad people go down" thing is a Christian idea... not a Jewish one. Dead is dead.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wasn't being snarky. I'm dead serious. I haven't sat down and counted verses or anything, but I've noticed that when people quote Jesus about how to live your life it's almost always some positive good thing you can do for others. And then Paul came along and when people quote him on how to live your life it's almost always about sex stuff you're not supposed to do. Some of which Jesus never bothered to even mention. I think he had his own hangups that he put into the religion.

Orel, do you smell what I smell? I smell gas. And I notice you're holding some matches. Maybe be careful with those ... ;)

I'm so glad you're here to clear up for us what Jesus or Paul actually said (or definitely didn't say) about 'sex stuff,' especially what with all of the wolves that are out and about in today's world.

Well, you're saying it's natural to feel that way, but I don't really have the right to claim it for myself even though I feel like I do. And I get it if God feels that way, but I don't see how to translate that feeling into fact.

Well I don't just accept things without reason to. I get that it seems obvious to you, but there should be an actual reason you can state that connects creating with owning.
Have your ever read John Locke? I mean, I know his theory relates to work and ownership, but if you guys can loosely pull tidbit ideas from Plato's Euthyphro and slap it into your own contrived moral matrix by which you attempt to plow God under metaphysically, then I'm thinking I can likewise just pluck out a tidbit from Locke and apply it, even with some additional reworking ...(I mean hey, it's all Subjective, right?)... then I can apply a little Locke to the God of the Bible. And presto. God owns the World---Get over it!!!

But is harm bad? That's what I was asking. I mean, I don't like being harmed or seeing people I care about being harmed, but does that make it actually bad, or do I just feel that way?
Yes, harm done out of impropriety, injustice and/or malice is bad, which is why I always harp about Hugh Hefner's affecting the world. Of course, folks like Ravi Zacharias don't help matters any, I know.

But let's not be entertaining this "Paul was a wolf" statement. I take that as a form of gaslighting, and so should you.
 
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Moral Orel

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Orel, do you smell what I smell? I smell gas. And I notice you're holding some matches. Maybe be careful with those ... ;)

I'm so glad you're here to clear up for us what Jesus or Paul actually said (or definitely didn't say) about 'sex stuff,' especially what with all of the wolves that are out and about in today's world.
I wasn't really talking about exactly what they did or didn't say. I was talking about how people quote them. I think Paul had some personal hangups on sex stuff, and his focus on that has given a lot of Christians an excuse to focus on bad things other folks do in the sack, all the while letting them feel good about themselves for not doing naughty things in bed, without having to worry about doing any actual good in the world.
Yes, harm done out of impropriety, injustice and/or malice is bad, which is why I always harp about Hugh Hefner's affecting the world. Of course, folks like Ravi Zacharias don't help matters any, I know.

But let's not be entertaining this "Paul was a wolf" statement. I take that as a form of gaslighting, and so should you.
See? Hugh Hefner's your boogey-man because of sex stuff, but I've never heard you comment on the lack of compassion from Christians to folks in the world. In fact, I've seen you comment that you lack it for a lot of folks and don't care. Paul caused that. I think that's bad.
Have your ever read John Locke? I mean, I know his theory relates to work and ownership, but if you guys can loosely pull tidbit ideas from Plato's Euthyphro and slap it into your own contrived moral matrix by which you attempt to plow God under metaphysically, then I'm thinking I can likewise just pluck out a tidbit from Locke and apply it, even with some additional reworking ...(I mean hey, it's all Subjective, right?)... then I can apply a little Locke to the God of the Bible. And presto. God owns the World---Get over it!!!
So, no reason, okay.
 
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Moral Orel

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There are a few theologians out there who theorized that Paul was in the closet, fighting against his own "forbidden" desires -- having spent a lifetime where his feelings would, if known, have meant death in this world and damnation in the next, he struggled with the "all is forgiven; just ask" attitude that Jesus seemed to espouse.

Bishop's Book Pictures Paul as a Homosexual : Controversy: He cites the apostle's own words as support for his theory. His main thesis is that the Bible is being neglected in mainstream Christianity because of the intellectual difficulties it poses for today's churchgoers.
That's so weird. I had the same thought yesterday when I was writing my post and I thought I must be crazy. So I Googled it to see if it was a theory anyone else had, and yep, I found that exact guy.
 
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TLK Valentine

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That's so weird. I had the same thought yesterday when I was writing my post and I thought I must be crazy. So I Googled it to see if it was a theory anyone else had, and yep, I found that exact guy.

John Shelby Spong is, AFAIK, the man who first put forth the idea that Paul was closeted, and while I highly recommend just about anything the man has written, even I think he's pushing this one just a bit... at one point, I believe he says something along the lines of this is the only explanation for Paul's writings... which I find irresponsible.

It's a plausible theory, and one that fits the facts... but let's not rule anything out.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wasn't really talking about exactly what they did or didn't say. I was talking about how people quote them. I think Paul had some personal hangups on sex stuff, and his focus on that has given a lot of Christians an excuse to focus on bad things other folks do in the sack, all the while letting them feel good about themselves for not doing naughty things in bed, without having to worry about doing any actual good in the world.
From where I'm standing, it looks like not doing naughty things in bed counts for quite a bit these days ... particularly if we're talking about straight guys!!

See? Hugh Hefner's your boogey-man because of sex stuff, but I've never heard you comment on the lack of compassion from Christians to folks in the world. In fact, I've seen you comment that you lack it for a lot of folks and don't care. Paul caused that. I think that's bad.
You've never heard me comment on the lack of compassion fro.............. ? And Paul caused this to be ba...?

Say what??!!! :rolleyes:

So, no reason, okay.
No, there's actually a 'reason' buried in there, but far be it from me to do other people's John Locke homework for them.

Have a great day!
 
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Moral Orel

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From where I'm standing, it looks like not doing naughty things in bed counts for quite a bit these days
I know that's how you see things and that's because of Paul.
You've never heard me comment on the lack of compassion fro.............. ? And Paul caused this to be ba...?

Say what??!!! :rolleyes:
Yeah I said it. Paul caused it and it is bad. There wouldn't be so many Christians obsessed with what other folks get up to in their bedrooms if it weren't for him. Maybe a lot more Christians would be more concerned with good things they could do instead, but probably not. Folks would just find some other thing to use as a diversion from their own lack of good works. I see it all as a diversion from having any real responsibilities. Don't do gay stuff you say? No problem, I'm not attracted to members of my own sex. Don't fornicate you say? No problem, I'm already married. Hey, look at that! I'm a great person!
No, there's actually a 'reason' buried in there, but far be it from me to do other people's homework for them.

Have a great day!
If you say so. I mean, you could have just given a reason instead of taking two posts to comment without giving a reason, but sure, sure, you have one but you just aren't sharing.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I know that's how you see things and that's because of Paul.

Yeah I said it. Paul caused it and it is bad. There wouldn't be so many Christians obsessed with what other folks get up to in their bedrooms if it weren't for him. Maybe a lot more Christians would be more concerned with good things they could do instead, but probably not. Folks would just find some other thing to use as a diversion from their own lack of good works. I see it all as a diversion from having any real responsibilities. Don't do gay stuff you say? No problem, I'm not attracted to members of my own sex. Don't fornicate you say? No problem, I'm already married. Hey, look at that! I'm a great person!

If you say so. I mean, you could have just given a reason instead of taking two posts to comment without giving a reason, but sure, sure, you have one but you just aren't sharing.

You might also want to consider the edit that I made to my post above [ which was placed BEFORE you posted ... ;)]
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Read it again.

If you mean God is being pragmatic for humans to give us morality, then I don't know why you would have a problem with this. If it's something else, you're going to have to explain if you want me to understand you.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I know that's how you see things and that's because of Paul.
No, there's bit more to it than that, and it's all already laid out here on CF.

Yeah I said it. Paul caused it and it is bad. There wouldn't be so many Christians obsessed with what other folks get up to in their bedrooms if it weren't for him. Maybe a lot more Christians would be more concerned with good things they could do instead, but probably not. Folks would just find some other thing to use as a diversion from their own lack of good works. I see it all as a diversion from having any real responsibilities. Don't do gay stuff you say? No problem, I'm not attracted to members of my own sex. Don't fornicate you say? No problem, I'm already married. Hey, look at that! I'm a great person!
I think you've misplaced me a bit. When it comes to deviance on the whole, I'm more about imitating those last several minutes of Ghost Rider 2 ... and if I had my way (which I know I won't until Christ comes back), I'd lasso my chain around the neck of the world inappropriate content industries [plural] and their related, organized economic environs [i.e. anything, anywhere even remotely similar in nature], and yank their multi-billion dollar bank account butts down to Gehenna for the damage they've caused to even just normal, straight relationships (oh, and families!).

And for that, I definitely won't apologize. Ever.

If you say so. I mean, you could have just given a reason instead of taking two posts to comment without giving a reason, but sure, sure, you have one but you just aren't sharing.
In fact, I do say so. It's not like you skeptics haven't been beating the dead horse of the Euthyphro Dilemma beyond measure anyway ... there's no good reason there to do so.
 
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Why would Christianity be pointless, just because you said so? I don’t need to know why God chose that Christ must die for our sins to be forgiven in order to escape eternal punishment in the lake of fire, I just need to know that He did choose for it to be this way. So no if my beliefs keep me from burning in the lake of fire it’s not pointless at all, it’s actually more important than anything else.

I said that it is pointless as far as you know, and that is a fact.

There’s no indication at all in the scriptures that David’s unborn child went to the place of suffering in Sheol. It’s never mentioned, so what makes you think they believed that he did?

There's no indication he went to the "good" afterlife either, which I presume is Abraham's bosom. The reality is that he was a pawn used to inflict pain on another person. That's immoral.

Ive had no difficulty at all, you seem to be the one who doesn’t understand God or Christianity not me and no I’m not toying with you, your the one who came to a Christian website to stir up trouble. It’s quite obvious who the troll is here.

I was wondering if you were an atheist who was joking with me. We call such a person a Poe.

To my knowledge, atheists are invited to participate here on this apologetics forum and without atheists this forum wouldn't exist. There aren't enough Mormons and Muslims to keep the forum going.

Similarly, you're more than welcome to participate on atheist forums. That doesn't make you a troll. Just be sure you aren't a snowflake because they will be taking a flamethrower to you.
 
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If you mean God is being pragmatic for humans to give us morality, then I don't know why you would have a problem with this. If it's something else, you're going to have to explain if you want me to understand you.

Well we probably have to start over. Is morality subjective or objective?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Well we probably have to start over. Is morality subjective or objective?

Objective for us, but not for God since he exists outside of morality and only gave us morality for our benefit. As such, he can interfere with the morality He has given us as He sees fit, just as He interferes with naturalism from time to time.
 
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Chriliman

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"It is objectively wrong for X to kill a child."

Christians would normally agree until you point out that God killed hundreds of children in the Old Testament.

"But God knew they would grow up evil" or "But God knew they'd go straight to heaven" or "But God has a divine plan."

There are no "buts" when it comes to objective morality.

"It is objectively wrong for X to kill a child, unless X=God" is subjective morality because the morality of the statement is subject to what X is.

Christians understand that morality must be objective in their worldview because Jesus had to die. It was absolutely required with no exceptions. There was no other way for souls to be saved. This means that Jesus/God is/are subject to morality. But then that means that God committed evil acts by killing children.

The alternative is that morality is subject to God. God can do whatever he wants. That "solves" the child-killing problem, but raises a new problem. If God can do whatever he wants, then why did Jesus die on the cross? He could've just saved us all as an act of will.

Skipping to the end, there's no answer to this issue except to claim that I've presented a false dichotomy. These responses will be automatically ignored unless the third possibility is clearly and thoroughly defined and explained.

I think you make some good points here, but you have to understand that objective wrongness isn’t necessarily objectively wrong for everyone at all times.

For example: it may be objectively wrong for a person to take a sip of alcohol because they’re an alcoholic, but it’s objectively fine for me because I’m not. The reason this is an objective moral choice is because of the objective effects that said action can lead to, in their case, or not lead to, in my case.

As far as some children deserving death, I tend to think that was just ancient people not thinking right and saying it was gods will.
 
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coffee4u

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I wasn't being snarky. I'm dead serious. I haven't sat down and counted verses or anything, but I've noticed that when people quote Jesus about how to live your life it's almost always some positive good thing you can do for others. And then Paul came along and when people quote him on how to live your life it's almost always about sex stuff you're not supposed to do. Some of which Jesus never bothered to even mention. I think he had his own hangups that he put into the religion.

Paul is not a wolf. His words are part of scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

He may have spoke more abruptly than Jesus but he was just a man. A man dedicated to God but still just a man.

Jesus did mention sexual sin. The women caught in adultery is a good example. John 8:1-11 It shows what our response as Christians should be. The men gathered around wanted her killed as per the Old Testament law. Jesus first made them look at themselves by saying “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” They all left because they knew they were all sinners.
Then he didn't just forgive her but said “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Him telling her to go and sin no more is very important to the entire exchange.

Well, you're saying it's natural to feel that way, but I don't really have the right to claim it for myself even though I feel like I do. And I get it if God feels that way, but I don't see how to translate that feeling into fact.

I think you have a right to claim your own painting but I think underneath it all we should acknowledge that it belongs to God first and that our talent to paint or sing or whatever it is comes from God. Or that should be the Christian response anyway.
You're an agnostic and your viewpoint will be different, I get that.

Well I don't just accept things without reason to. I get that it seems obvious to you, but there should be an actual reason you can state that connects creating with owning.

To me creating something out of nothing means the being- God- who created it controls every part of it.

But is harm bad? That's what I was asking. I mean, I don't like being harmed or seeing people I care about being harmed, but does that make it actually bad, or do I just feel that way?

So, to be sure I have what you are saying correct, you are saying: Is someone running you over in a car intrinsically bad or do you just feel it is bad?

I believe it is both. It is intricately bad because God says that it is. But those feelings are also from God. He gives us the standard for what is good or bad. As humans we may not always feel in tune with those standards because we are fallen beings. We have free will and as such we may come up with our own standards. Feelings can be misleading because they are tied to our flesh.

God says that he put his moral laws upon our hearts after Jesus died. So the closer we are to God the more we will feel these and the further away we are, the less we will feel them. Until you get down to completely depraved people like that women who starved her 4 month old to death without any remorse. Such things will bring general public outcry because such depravity can be spotted even by those who don't believe in God because even those who don't believe are not as far away as they may think they are.
 
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Objective for us, but not for God

There is no "because" that will justify this contradiction.

since he exists outside of morality and only gave us morality for our benefit.

If he "gave" us morality, then morality is subjective.

As such, he can interfere with the morality He has given us as He sees fit, just as He interferes with naturalism from time to time.

Right, if he is the author of morality, then he can do whatever he wants. Morality is subjective in this case.
 
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There is no "because" that will justify this contradiction. If he "gave" us morality, then morality is subjective. Right, if he is the author of morality, then he can do whatever he wants. Morality is subjective in this case.

God gave us objective morality. God does not need (requirement) to operate at the same basic level of morality because God's idea of morality is much bigger than our conception of morality can be.
 
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