Belief is not a choice

Kenny'sID

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I have made it clear many times.

You don't choose what you believe. You cannot choose to believe something is true without evidence which you are not convinced is true by evidence. If you believe the earth has one moon by convincing evidence you cannot choose to believe the earth has two moons without convincing evidence.

I choose what I believe, so I suggest you go convince someone else.

And you're an Atheist, why do you care? I mean what is the point of you guys constantly popping in and trying to ruin our faith?

Why is our having faith such a bother to you?
 
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Clare73

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You misunderstand my post.
I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T believe.
If your faith has brought you joy and peace then I'm happy for you.

I'm simply asking how you reconcile a loving God with one who condemns people for not being convinced as you are.
You start with: he's God, you're not.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I choose what I believe, so I suggest you go convince someone else.
You popped into the conversation, I did not ask you to.

And you're an Atheist, why do you care? I mean what is the point of you guys constantly popping in and trying to ruin our faith?

Why is our having faith such a bother to you?
This conversation had nothing to do with faith but everything to do with how we determine truth. Isn't how we come to believe something is true important to you?
 
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Kenny'sID

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TedT

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People are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to suggest that God would not ALWAYS have known (even billions of years before they were born) who would believe and who not.
The straight way of the LORD is only a pretzel to the wayward.
 
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TedT

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There are Muslims who point to verses in the Quran which they say offer undeniable proof of the existence of Allah as God.
You presumably are unmoved by their claims in much the same way that I am by the claims of Christianity.
Again, one is either convinced of a proposition, or one is not.
There's no choice in the matter.

Pre-earth, pre-humans and only with GOD's word...it is a choice without proof based upon your hopes for HIS claims to be true or untrue.
 
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d taylor

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And that is the crux of the matter. . .ability to believe the evidence.

And that is why satan blinds people to the truth, God's free gift of eternal life.

He does this in many ways, the sad part is not the ones who hate God but the ones who seem to love God but simply can not see how to receive God's free gift of eternal life.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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Therein lies the problem, your notions are limited to the ones you have, and your disposition allows no others.

You need another disposition.

I suppose the argument will now shift to one's disposition being a matter of choice too.
disposition | dɪspəˈzɪʃ(ə)n |
noun: a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.

I can't change whether or not I find something convincing any more than you can.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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I agree it is 100% not convincing to you.

It can't be with your current disposition, just like it can't be for everyone with the disposition with which they were born.
So you are conceding the point that given how my mind operates as a consequence of how I was born (a matter in which I was not given a choice), that I am unable to be convinced by arguments that others such as yourself find convincing.

That is indeed the point of this entire thread.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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Said the pot to the potter.

By this do you mean that if one creature creates another, the second creature should have no right to question the ethics of the first?
If I have a child, is the child not entitled to question my morality if I punish her for the colour of her eyes or for not being intelligent or quick enough?

Does the fact that I 'created' her render her ethical opinions of me worthless because she is just a pot and I am a potter?

What a horrible thought.
I want my children to judge me in any way they see fit and I hope that I behave with enough compassion and kindness to earn their love and respect rather than demand it because I MADE them.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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And that is the crux of the matter. . .ability to believe the evidence.

Well said.
Thank you Clare.
You are 100% right.

I and many like me do not have the ability to believe that which we do not find convincing.
Ironically, neither do you or anyone else.

I'm glad we got there.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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And that is why satan blinds people to the truth, God's free gift of eternal life.

He does this in many ways, the sad part is not the ones who hate God but the ones who seem to love God but simply can not see how to receive God's free gift of eternal life.

So you are saying that the fact that I don't find any of the arguments for God or Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) convincing is NOT my fault.
It's because Satan has done something to me which makes my brain operate differently?

In that case, God is punishing ME for something Satan has done.

This would be like me locking my child in his room to make him late for school, and then the school beating and torturing him because I did that.

That surely cannot be ethical???
 
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Clare73

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I suppose the argument will now shift to one's disposition being a matter of choice too.
disposition | dɪspəˈzɪʃ(ə)n |
noun: a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.

I can't change whether or not I find something convincing any more than you can.
Precisely. . .no one can. . .you have to be given new one.
 
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Clare73

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So you are conceding the point that given how my mind operates as a consequence of how I was born (a matter in which I was not given a choice), that I am unable to be convinced by arguments that others such as yourself find convincing.

That is indeed the point of this entire thread.
Yes, I agree. . .and what is more I didn't find them convincing either.
 
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Clare73

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By this do you mean that if one creature creates another, the second creature should have no right to question the ethics of the first?
God is not a creature.
If I make a clay pot, it has no "rights" against me. It didn't even exist until I made it. I own it entirely
If I have a child, is the child not entitled to question my morality if I punish her for the colour of her eyes or for not being intelligent or quick enough?

Does the fact that I 'created' her render her ethical opinions of me worthless because she is just a pot and I am a potter?

What a horrible thought.
I want my children to judge me in any way they see fit and I hope that I behave with enough compassion and kindness to earn their love and respect rather than demand it because I MADE them.
 
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d taylor

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So you are saying that the fact that I don't find any of the arguments for God or Christianity (or any other faith for that matter) convincing is NOT my fault.
It's because Satan has done something to me which makes my brain operate differently?

In that case, God is punishing ME for something Satan has done.

This would be like me locking my child in his room to make him late for school, and then the school beating and torturing him because I did that.

That surely cannot be ethical???

The verse in the Bible that states this does not say satan blinds every single unbeliever.

Actually you have judged yourself and have decided you do not want God free gift of Eternal Life.

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

If you did not have the witness of the Bible and Gods creation, you may could claim God is unethical.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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The verse in the Bible that states this does not say satan blinds every single unbeliever.

Actually you have judged yourself and have decided you do not want God free gift of Eternal Life.

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

If you did not have the witness of the Bible and Gods creation, you may could claim God is unethical.

You are incorrect.
This is not about what I want or don't want.
I made a decision as a young man with an inquiring mind to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
I simply don't find the claims of Christianity any more convincing than the claims of any other religion.
They all seem decidedly man made to me.
I could be wrong of course and am open to being so.
But I can only be convinced of what I find convincing.
Which is the same for you and everyone else too.

I bet you don't spend one second worrying about going to Islamic Hell even though muslims would say that's where you and I are heading. Why don't you?
Because you simply don't find their claims convincing. (Just like me.)

But it's not a choice. You couldnt suddenly decide to believe them any more than you can decide to believe in Santa.
 
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Blindwatchmaker

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That's the work of the Holy Spirit.

If you want one, you should pray for it.

But prayer in the absence of belief in God is not honest.
I don't believe that any gods exist so a prayer to a god would not be authentic.
I would feel like I was pretending (which I would be.)

If God exists and wants me to know him, he knows where I am.
 
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