What Is "To Be Without Guile"?

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and said of him,
Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth.

1 Peter 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain
his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile.

Michie · Mar 2, 2021

Treacherous cunning; skillful deceit. ... To deceive, to beguile.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

Michie said:
Treacherous cunning; skillful deceit. ... To deceive, to beguile.

This is a good definition, and a good place to start. There are two words that are used to
convey these malignant qualities of the carnal mind. All three scriptures in the OP use:
dolos [G1388] subtilty G1388 - dolos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
The other word used in the NT that is often translated deceit/deceive and the better match
to the definition you provided:
planao [F4105] to lead astray
as in:
Matthew 24:
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ and will deceive many.

So even if we have no malicious intent to deceive others, there is a subtilty to the way
we communicate that comes from the carnal nature that we have to be very wary of to
remain "without guile".
Around 25 years ago, I was accused by someone of being "a master of manipulation".
Obviously not a compliment! The comment came from an in law that didn't particularly
like me, so I could have dismissed the statement, but the Holy Spirit would not let me
go, and I became intrigued by the idea. I found that the simplest way to describe this
would be "making suggestive comments" in an attempt to influence and get our way. As
I started paying particular attention to assessing not only myself, but people in general,
I found this characteristic of carnality to be shockingly pervasive. The fact is, most people
practice guile at some level, and to be free from this self-deception we must be "renewed in
the spirit of our mind". The scriptures that the links to BLB.org provide are a very strong
way to commit to overcoming this "treacherous cunning" of the flesh.

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

A person without guile is genuine, sincere, straightforward.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
A person without guile is genuine, sincere, straightforward.

Here is Paul's description, using both words from this study.

1 Thessalonians 2:
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit(plane) , nor of uncleanness, nor in guile (dolos):
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak;
not as pleasing men, but God, which tries our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloak for covetousness;
God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been
burdensome as the apostles of Christ.

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Here is Paul's description, using both words from this study.

1 Thessalonians 2:
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit(plane) , nor of uncleanness, nor in guile (dolos):
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak;
not as pleasing men, but God, which tries our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloak for covetousness;
God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been
burdensome as the apostles of Christ.

The word dolos is the word used for bait (think fishing). Like bait is used to trick a fish. It was used in reference to the Trojan horse (per Liddel-Scott).

It's not just in reference to subtlety, but subtlety with an intention to decieve.

You know, every time I come on one of your threads, I have to break out my Greek New Testament so that we can investigate the subtle nuances in hopes of a straightforward interpretation.

Is that partaking in guile? I wouldn't say so.

Minister Monardo said:
the Holy Spirit would not let me
go, and I became intrigued by the idea. I found that the simplest way to describe this
would be "making suggestive comments" in an attempt to influence and get our way.

But, isn't there a difference between mere subtlety and deciet? If you used some Socratic method of question asking to help someone see the truth, that is not guile. That's what every rabbi does, including Jesus.

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
A person without guile is genuine, sincere, straightforward.

On the "Belief is not a choice" thread, do you see your posts #42, 49, 50, 53?

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
On the "Belief is not a choice" thread, do you see your posts #42, 49, 50, 53?

I have no intention to decieve. Is that your accusation? Be straightforward with me.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
But, isn't there a difference between mere subtlety and deciet? If you used some Socratic method of question asking to help someone see the truth, that is not guile. That's what every rabbi does, including Jesus.

The point of what I wrote is that we often do things without intent to deceive, as
an aspect of the carnal mind.
As to Socratic method used by Rabbis, Paul describes it here:
2 Corinthians 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty,
I caught you with guile.

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
I have no intention to decieve. Is that your accusation? Be straightforward with me.

Not at all, some are disappearing, and I want to know if your's are.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
On the "Belief is not a choice" thread, do you see your posts #42, 49, 50, 53?

You are aware that if you have a bone to pick with a member, you could do it through private
channels of this site by "start a conversation". Please do not do so on this thread.

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not at all, some are disappearing, and I want to know if your's are.

Sorry, I got caught up in the moment.

Clare73 · Mar 2, 2021

Thanks.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
Sorry, I got caught up in the moment.

Okay, so all good then.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Thanks.

Apologies for jumping in so quickly. Moving from one thread to another can quickly
become confusing. Case in point.

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Thanks.

They are still there. My apologies, again, for the hasty conclusion.

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
The point of what I wrote is that we often do things without intent to deceive, as
an aspect of the carnal mind.
As to Socratic method used by Rabbis, Paul describes it here:
2 Corinthians 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty,
I caught you with guile.

Yes, Paul is referencing what they seem to have accused him of. I see your point. And, I concur, that if something can be said clearly it should be. But, I'm still not convinced that subtlety, per se, is carnal. Maybe it is carnel in the sense that sometimes it is needed to get through to flesh?

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
You know, every time I come on one of your threads, I have to break out my Greek New Testament so that we can investigate the subtle nuances in hopes of a straightforward interpretation. Is that partaking in guile? I wouldn't say so.

I might not be getting what you are saying here.

public hermit said:
The word dolos is the word used for bait (think fishing). Like bait is used to trick a fish. It was used in reference to the Trojan horse (per Liddel-Scott).

My threads only focus on the scriptures that employ that word.
I even provided a link for that word to a concordance.
Not being aware of extra-Biblical references, such as the trojan horse doesn't make
me deceptive either, right?

public hermit · Mar 2, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
I might not be getting what you are saying here

Your threads are always good because they often deal in the subtleties of a particular text, imo. Word studies and such. I was trying to offer a good example of the value of navigating subtleties

Minister Monardo said:
Not being aware of extra-Biblical references, such as the trojan horse doesn't make
me deceptive either, right?

No, of course not.

Mr. M · Mar 2, 2021

public hermit said:
Yes, Paul is referencing what they seem to have accused him of. I see your point. And, I concur, that if something can be said clearly it should be. But, I'm still not convinced that subtlety, per se, is carnal. Maybe it is carnel in the sense that sometimes it is needed to get through to flesh?

The carnal nature, as I attempted to describe, are subtle comments used for selfish reasons,
very often without a conscious intent to deceive, because the flesh is selfish and wants its way.
Just another reason why we should follow the advice to be "slow to speak".

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