What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

The Liturgist

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Apostolic succession in teaching what Jesus and the apostles taught, of which there is very little in the RCC. Can you imagine Jesus or Paul living in a palace wearing the pope's get up?

Actually based on what Isaiah and our Lord Himself said, I think the Pope is, in a liturgical context, really underdressed. Recall the verse about Solomon and the lilies of the field?

Or Isaiah: "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

The whole point of vestments is to signify the heavenly splendor in which the victorious Christ now presides. Protestantism initially had an ambivalent relation towards them, largely due to John Calvin, but thankfully the Anglicans rectified this in the 19th century and are actually largely responsible for some of the Eastern churches, like the Church of the East, being as well vested as they are.

Now, to be sure, I am talking only about liturgical attire. I particularly like the Eastern churches where you have monks who go from wearing the most splendid vestments while celebrating the Divine Liturgy to wearing simple black and grey robes that would not look out of place on a 13th century peasant.
 
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The Liturgist

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Bunk, here is her tomb: Tomb of the Virgin Mary - Wikipedia Any notion she did not die is just superstitious nonsense.

If Jesus need a mother without sin to be sinless Himself, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, who would have needed four sinless parents, who would have needed eight sinless parents, etc., etc.?

No, because the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is a late Scholastic artifact of Augustinian hamartiology. If we switch over to the hamartiology of St. John Cassian, who was a Latin monk but looked to as authoritative by the Eastern Orthodox Church to this day, while Augustine is barely even recognized as a saint, original sin is not to be understood as the product of human coition but is rather ancestral, making it possible to be born in a sinless state. This does not enable Pelagianism because of the ancestral nature of the sin. Of course a Calvinist won’t in theory, buy this argument because to Calvinists, even Arminianism is Pelagian by providing a choice, but Calvinism as a system depends on Thomism which depends on Anselm of Canterbury which depends on Augustine. If we use John Cassian to argue against the grave and blasphemous teaching of Pelagius, who believed one could save oneself, rather than Augustine, the main difference being how original sin is transmitted, venereally in the Augustinian system and ancestrally in the system of John Cassian, a ton of theological problems and disputes just disappear.

And the weird thing is that historically John Cassian was extremely popular in the West and used to be read in Benedictine monasteries on a schedule. But then his work became forgotten after Augustinian-based works took over. But the Roman Catholic Church never said he was wrong, and now they would certainly not be able to, as a result of their ecumenical agreements with the Orthodox and their own sui juris Eastern Catholic churches, which are basically Orthodox ethnic groups who for various reasons entered into communion with the Pope, oh and also John Cassian has been a canonized saint in the West probably for as long as Augustine.

Also lest this be read incorrectly, there was no feud between Cassian and Augustine. My understanding is they regarded each other as allies in combatting the heresy of Pelagius.
 
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The Liturgist

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"
And you should read 'Roman Catholicism' by Boettner.

Its never a good idea to read in an uncritical manner a book about a religion written by an opponent thereof. Now in the unfortunate case of Scientology, we really only have access to knowledge about their secret inner doctrines because of corroborations of former practitioners, but in Roman Catholicism there are no secret inner doctrines available only to the select few.

With the Early Church, this was not the case. The early church preached the Gospel, but did not read the actual four Gospels to catechumens or allow them to participate in Holy Communion. And there are still some Eastern Orthodox churches where catechumens and energumens (those about to be baptized in Holy Week) are dismissed, and every Orthodox liturgy features a relic of this when the priest intones “The doors, the doors,”
 
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The Liturgist

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I can only speak for myself. All Trintarian baptized who believe in Christ are Christians, and that's what the Catholic Church teaches. We believe you (Protestants) don't have the fullness of the Truth, but you have the essence of the Truth. In fact, if one of you were to join the Catholic Church, we accept your baptism as valid.

On the other hand, Russian Old Believers or Greek Old Calendarists will rebaptize you, and the Coptic Orthodox I have heard will often do so if requested.

However, most Orthodox churches recognize even Roman Catholic ordinations as valid, so if a Catholic priest decides to become Orthodox, he can be received through what is called vesting, but if celibate, must remain celibate. But actually the Ruthenian Greek Catholics in the US largely converted to Orthodoxy because the Latin Rite bishops refused to allow them to remain married according to the Byzantine custom in which they had been ordained in Eastern Europe and demanded they become celibate. So many joined the Russians under Alexis Toth, and others the Greek Orthodox, where they form the American Carpatho Rusyn Diocese.

However, some remained Catholic, and interestingly Andy Warhol was a Ruthenian Greek Catholic, a member of the Carpathian ethnic subgroup known in Poland as Lemkos, who frequently attended Mass in Latin Rite parishes for fear of embarassment as he had been raised to cross himself right to left in the Byzantine fashion.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Another poster once asked: What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

I agree. What if John 6 means exactly what it says? What if Matthew 16:18-20 means exactly what it says, and makes Peter the head of the apostles, and thus the entire Church, and his successors the same?
A cult of an individual is absurd. Jesus spoke of Him being a servant, like the least of all. The rock is Peters faith declaration. Words found the Kingdom, the least of things we have in life, yet words define everything we do and experience.

We walk with Jesus because of His words and our hearing. The Kingdom of God is the seed and the sower.

Our teacher is the Holy Spirit, who speaks quietly to our hearts. The church is like Hezekiah finding people worshipping the bronze snake.

God bless you
 
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LightLoveHope

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Actually Wikipedia is quite politically slanted.
I love this idea. It reminds me of a teenager claiming they did not speak with an accent. What they meant was their speech was correct and any deviations were bad, an accent.

Accents are about group identity, which is a human reality. It's walking in the light that matters.
 
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Root of Jesse

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A cult of an individual is absurd. Jesus spoke of Him being a servant, like the least of all. The rock is Peters faith declaration. Words found the Kingdom, the least of things we have in life, yet words define everything we do and experience.

We walk with Jesus because of His words and our hearing. The Kingdom of God is the seed and the sower.

Our teacher is the Holy Spirit, who speaks quietly to our hearts. The church is like Hezekiah finding people worshipping the bronze snake.

God bless you
I didn't say, and never would, that Jesus crowned Peter king. Jesus made Peter a servant. A shepherd. The pope is supposed to be the shepherd of the entire flock. One of the papal titles is Servant of the Servants of God. Granted, many don't live up to it, especially in the Renaissance era.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Jesus is THE truth - we have him just as you do.
I agree with you, but you disagree with Matthew 16:18-20 and John 6, at least the meaning that was understood for 1500 years.
 
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Strong in Him

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I agree with you, but you disagree with Matthew 16:18-20 and John 6, at least the meaning that was understood for 1500 years.

You disagree that I have Jesus, or that Jesus is the truth?
Or maybe you agree that he is the truth, but there is still more that is needed for salvation.

Like when I told other Catholics that Jesus saves, and received the answer "not without his church, clergy and sacraments." In other words, "Jesus PLUS .... saves."
 
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Valletta

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You disagree that I have Jesus, or that Jesus is the truth?
Or maybe you agree that he is the truth, but there is still more that is needed for salvation.

Like when I told other Catholics that Jesus saves, and received the answer "not without his church, clergy and sacraments." In other words, "Jesus PLUS .... saves."
Jesus saves THROUGH His Church. Instead of sending out prophets to preach God's Word and later the Apostles out to preach the Gospel God could have brought His Word immediately into the heart of each and every human being directly.
 
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Jesus saves THROUGH His Church. Instead of sending out prophets to preach God's Word and later the Apostles out to preach the Gospel God could have brought His Word immediately into the heart of each and every human being directly.

Jesus relies on his followers to spread the Good News and preach the Gospel, yes; but HE saves - the cross saves.
We are given the privilege of serving him and working with him - but we don't save anyone.
 
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Root of Jesse

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You disagree that I have Jesus, or that Jesus is the truth?
Or maybe you agree that he is the truth, but there is still more that is needed for salvation.

Like when I told other Catholics that Jesus saves, and received the answer "not without his church, clergy and sacraments." In other words, "Jesus PLUS .... saves."
I have no reason to believe that you don't have Jesus, and I firmly believe Jesus is the Truth. I don't believe there is more needed for salvation, but the Church is the Body of Christ, so you do need the whole Person. And the Church includes the clergy and sacraments.

Look, I don't really care what other Catholics may have said to you, other than apologize. Maybe they said it the wrong way, or something. All I can tell you is that we believe we are the Church Jesus instituted (do you think Jesus didn't do what he said he would do??? I doubt that that's what you think.), that we have been given the fullness of truth, and all others have a subset of the truth.
 
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Strong in Him

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I have no reason to believe that you don't have Jesus, and I firmly believe Jesus is the Truth.

Great.

I don't believe there is more needed for salvation, but the Church is the Body of Christ, so you do need the whole Person.

THE church is all believers, and we certainly need one another for fellowship, prayer support etc.
But anyone who was on a desert island/a country with very few Christians/on their death bed etc could still be saved through Jesus, without any of these other things.

All I can tell you is that we believe we are the Church Jesus instituted (do you think Jesus didn't do what he said he would do??? I doubt that that's what you think.), that we have been given the fullness of truth, and all others have a subset of the truth.

So others have "a subset" of Jesus - since Jesus is the truth? Or maybe only "a subset" of the Gospel?

I've asked several times how the Gospel that Catholics believe is different from the Gospel that Protestants believe, and had no satisfactory answer. All I was told - eventually - was that Catholics believe the Gospel that is taught by the Magisterium, who teach Scripture.
That doesn't tell me if you believe that Jesus, the eternal Word, was born of Mary, lived, died for us, was raised again, ascended, sent his Holy Spirit to believers to help us how live our faith, and will return one day as King. If you do believe that, which is set out in the Nicene Creed; so do I and we are therefore both children of God - equal in God's sight.

That is a fact. There is no "subset of the truth" in the NT; people believed this Gospel, that Peter and others preached, and were added to the number of believers. Gentiles believed this, were saved and received the Holy Spirit, just as the apostles had done. Which led Peter to say, "if God gave them the same gift that he gave us, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" Acts of the Apostles 11:17. Previously he had said "I now realise that God does not show favouritism", Acts of the Apostles 10:34.

I can't help feeling that, deep down, Catholics believe, "you need to have the same view of the sacraments as us and believe what we believe about Mary/Peter in order to have the full Gospel, and THEN you will be saved" - in fact, this comes across in many of the responses I have had.
If that is true, then you ARE saying that there is more to the Gospel; that Jesus saves - yes, but you need this as well.
If that is the case, then I believe it is wrong, and Scripture affirms that.
If it is not the case that Catholics think that - great! But then that means we have the same God, same Saviour, same Spirit, same Gospel - and there are no grounds for saying that we (non Catholics) do not have the full truth, are not the true church or are not true Christians (as was said to me.)

I don't see that any Catholic is going to admit that a non Catholic is also part of the ONE church, a child of God and equally as saved and important to God as Catholics are.
Thankfully though, it's God's opinion that matters.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Great.



THE church is all believers,
Where did I say otherwise?
and we certainly need one another for fellowship, prayer support etc.
But anyone who was on a desert island/a country with very few Christians/on their death bed etc could still be saved through Jesus, without any of these other things.
Again, where did I contradict this? The Church is all Christians.
So others have "a subset" of Jesus - since Jesus is the truth? Or maybe only "a subset" of the Gospel?
Sir, would you stop putting words in my mouth? I'm talking about the faith, which came from Jesus, but is not Jesus. It points to Jesus. Is Jesus, he, himself, baptism? No, but he tells us the faith, to be baptized. Is Jesus the Sermon on the Mount? No, but he certainly taught us how we should live there. See my point? And my point, getting to the original question, is that you (Protestants) don't believe Jesus meant what he, himself, said in some passages, such as Matthew 16:18-20 and John 6.
I've asked several times how the Gospel that Catholics believe is different from the Gospel that Protestants believe, and had no satisfactory answer. All I was told - eventually - was that Catholics believe the Gospel that is taught by the Magisterium, who teach Scripture.
Well, I have just told you (Matthew 16:18-20 and John 6) how we differ. That's not the only things, but it's two. The Magisterium, which is the teaching Office of the Church and is compounded from the writings of the Church, tell us what those Scriptures mean and proved it to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. Another bone of contention is the purpose of Baptism.
That doesn't tell me if you believe that Jesus, the eternal Word, was born of Mary, lived, died for us, was raised again, ascended, sent his Holy Spirit to believers to help us how live our faith, and will return one day as King. If you do believe that, which is set out in the Nicene Creed; so do I and we are therefore both children of God - equal in God's sight.
I pray that Creed every week. And say Amen afterward.
That is a fact. There is no "subset of the truth" in the NT; people believed this Gospel, that Peter and others preached, and were added to the number of believers. Gentiles believed this, were saved and received the Holy Spirit, just as the apostles had done. Which led Peter to say, "if God gave them the same gift that he gave us, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" Acts of the Apostles 11:17. Previously he had said "I now realise that God does not show favouritism", Acts of the Apostles 10:34.
There is obviously a subset of the Truth, to Protestants. The Church which proceeded from Pentecost and was taught directly by Jesus, believed these things for 1500 years. You're trying to tell me that it's not the Truth that Peter was given an office? And that Jesus didn't mean what he said in John 6? If you don't believe Peter was the first pope, that Jesus would leave some authority to govern His Body, you're leaving a headless body or a bodiless head. And if you believe that the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, Jesus meant it to be symbolic, you've cut out part of the whole Truth, and therefore believe a subset of the Truth. And if you don't believe Baptism serves a purpose other than being a declaration of your faith, again, you've cut out part of the whole Truth. But that doesn't mean you're not a Christian, and it doesn't mean you aren't saved or can't be saved.
I can't help feeling that, deep down, Catholics believe, "you need to have the same view of the sacraments as us and believe what we believe about Mary/Peter in order to have the full Gospel, and THEN you will be saved" - in fact, this comes across in many of the responses I have had.
If that is true, then you ARE saying that there is more to the Gospel; that Jesus saves - yes, but you need this as well.
If that is the case, then I believe it is wrong, and Scripture affirms that.
If it is not the case that Catholics think that - great! But then that means we have the same God, same Saviour, same Spirit, same Gospel - and there are no grounds for saying that we (non Catholics) do not have the full truth, are not the true church or are not true Christians (as was said to me.)
What I said before. We believe we have the entire Truth, including the right Scriptural interpretation based on what the Early Church Fathers wrote, and that Protestants excised that, and therefore don't have the entire Truth.
I don't see that any Catholic is going to admit that a non Catholic is also part of the ONE church, a child of God and equally as saved and important to God as Catholics are.
I'm sorry. I'm Catholic, and I believe you're my brother in Christ, and that every human is important to God, all equal. It rains on the good and the evil.
Thankfully though, it's God's opinion that matters.
Amen.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Jesus saves THROUGH His Church. Instead of sending out prophets to preach God's Word and later the Apostles out to preach the Gospel God could have brought His Word immediately into the heart of each and every human being directly.
I will have to disagree with this. We are saved though the blood of Jesus. Only Jesus can save us, not a church, not the pope, only Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 16: 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 
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Root of Jesse

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I will have to disagree with this. We are saved though the blood of Jesus. Only Jesus can save us, not a church, not the pope, only Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 16: 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
We know you disagree but this is the meaning handed down to us through history. You wipe out the input of the Apostolic Age, and expect to revise and hold a position. But you can't.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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We know you disagree but this is the meaning handed down to us through history. You wipe out the input of the Apostolic Age, and expect to revise and hold a position. But you can't.
I am going to use my line, that you used, and I am going to use again but apply it to these scriptures:

What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

What if it turns out only God can save you and you only confessed to your church and what Jesus told us was exactly what He meant?


John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 16: 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
 
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The Liturgist

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I am going to use my line, that you used, and I am going to use again but apply it to these scriptures:

What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

What if it turns out only God can save you and you only confessed to your church and what Jesus told us was exactly what He meant?


John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 16: 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

If @Root of Jesse is in error by being over-reliant on the Roman Catholic magisterium, and I don’t think he is by the way; the only doctrinal disagreement I think I might have with him based on reading his very good posts concerns the extent of the authority of the Bishop of Rome and also he and I might debate, if we cared, about the utility of the College of Cardinals; I prefer those churches where the Holy Synod comprises all bishops and there is not a group of elite bishops who are more episcopal than other bishops, but more churches than just the Roman Catholic are structured with a hierarchical hierarchy, but, if he were in error for relying on the Magisterium in excess in interpreting scripture, I fear you would be equally in error for relying on the writings of Ellen White.

My view is that the Roman Catholic Magisterium does contain some errors relating to certain doctrines, where the Eastern churches tend to have a better grasp on the issue, and I think there are particular problems with an over-reliance on Scholastics like Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas; Aquinas was brilliant and I love reading his work, but there is I think a slight disconnect between it and what is often called the consensus patrum.

Likewise, the writings of Ellen White suffer from erroneous interpretations, but the errors she made were in my opinion larger, and more theologically problematic, than those errors in the Roman Catholic Magisterium which I can trace back to the Scholastic Era and the over-reliance of Aquinas on Anselm and also Augustine. But while I can read the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas and enjoy it as a masterpiece of theological analysis, I find some of the more polemical works of Ellen White, like The Great Controversy, to be in great error, with unpleasant sectarian contempt of the Roman Catholic Church, a lack of charity shown to Catholics, an assumption that everyone who ever was a leader in the Catholic church had somehow been an enemy of divine truth, and also, a purported ecclesiastical history which is factually inaccurate.

Also, Thomas Aquinas was never heralded as a prophet, and to my knowledge, even the Roman doctrine of Papal infallibility does not confer any kind of prophetic authority or inspiration on Papal decrees.

This also takes us to the divergent eschatological expectations. A minority of Adventists, including I think you, from some of your posts, seem to believe that the rest of us are conspiring to make worship on Saturday illegal and Sunday worship mandatory. This is, frankly, nonsensical, because of two reasons: secularization and Islam. Muslims are outbreeding Christians and will soon overtake us as the largest religion on the planet. Their holy days of choice would be Thursday and Friday. Secularization meanwhile has caused a trend towards the repeal of “blue laws” limiting commerce on Sunday.

I would frankly welcome laws prohibiting youth sports activities from being scheduled on Sunday mornings; this pernicious trend in the US has been interfering with church attendance for decades. But otherwise I am generally opposed to “blue laws” and if there is any such conspiracy as some think, no one has let me in on it...

So the bottom line is that in my opinion neither of you are using Sola Scriptura. And neither am I; I am using primarily Patristic era exegesis, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox theology, and an eclectic blend of the best ideas from Roman Catholicism and the early Reformers, and lastly a heavy influence of John Wesley, who I think was probably the best theologian the Church of England ever produced, although I don’t agree with Wesley on everything, his work was exceedingly good.

I would also argue that it is impossible to claim sola scriptura as long as someone is relying on any singular infallible authority as an aid to interpretation.
 
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concretecamper

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I am going to use my line, that you used, and I am going to use again but apply it to these scriptures:

What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

What if it turns out only God can save you and you only confessed to your church and what Jesus told us was exactly what He meant?


John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Acts 16: 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Ephesians2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
I agree 100% with you list. Other scriptures I would add:

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I agree 100% with you list. Other scriptures I would add:

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

John 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Mat 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
The church the Bible is referring to is God’s people, based on the Word of God, not a denomination. My question still stands. What if you’re wrong and only God can forgive sins like Jesus tells us and you only confessed yours to your church. Seems like there is a lot at stake.
 
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