The church must be catholic!

bbbbbbb · Feb 28, 2021

Thomas White said:
Yes, it's showing Jesus rising above the disaster of man's greatest evil - nuclear weapons. It's not intended to be cheery, but it is very loving. The message is clear: even when we mess it up, He is still there, waiting to embrace us. He does not fail.

I promise you that the crucifixion did not look cheery. The stoning of Stephen did not look cheery. The entirety of the Revelation does not look cheery. Jesus is not cheery.

God is the supreme being of the universe. He wiped armies from the Earth with just a thought, and He plans to destroy the Earth with fire. There's nothing cheery about that.

Despite all the darkness in the Bible, the light of His love constantly shines. That is the message of the sculpture. Despite all the evil in this world, Jesus rises above it all. His sacrifice and resurrection from the dead will never change. We still have salvation through Him.

I agree. There is an amazing amount of grim material in the Bible. David and Goliath is one example which has been completely reinvented for children. Beheading is not a pretty sight.

Thomas White · Mar 2, 2021

staff edit

Jesus is always with us, especially in the darkest of times. Do you disagree?

Here is a real, undoctored look at the side of the Paul VI Audience Hall. As you can see, the actual inside is square, making the rounded image of a snake quite impossible. The photo you continue to reference is a doctored photo shot with a particular camera effect. You are using that photo to link the Church to Satan. You are quite literally placing stumbling blocks in front of others because of a doctored photo.

BNR32FAN · Mar 2, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
Where is the word catholic first used?

Around 110 AD

"
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Smyrnaeans (St. Ignatius)

To those who I give the challenge to, above is an example of a proper answer: a Quote showing in context and link for others to check the full text.

The Catholic Church recognizes any baptism that is done according to the Trinidadian method as valid.

Thomas White · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
This photo looks like its taken from a different angle so can't really tell anything, imo.

I am more concerned with the doctrine that is being taught, that is not in the Holly Bible more than anything though. I do feel our place of worship should represent who we are worshipping.

What is not in the Bible about Jesus being supreme over evil?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 2, 2021

Thomas White said:
What is not in the Bible about Jesus being supreme over evil?

It is known that the Catholic church teaches there own doctrine that is outside of the Bible. This is what I am referring to.

Albion · Mar 2, 2021

What's the doctrine that's being taught? You've simply decided what doctrine you think is being taught and are opposed to that.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 2, 2021

Albion said:
What's the doctrine that's being taught? You've simply decided what doctrine you think is being taught and are opposed to that.

You have stated that there is more scripture outside the Bible? Maybe I misunderstood you.

Does the Catholic church say there is scripture outside the Bible that they were "given" authority to make changes? That's what has been stated but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Albion · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
You have stated that there is more scripture outside the Bible? Maybe I misunderstood you.

Apparently you did, yes.

Does the Catholic church say there is scripture outside the Bible that they were "given" authority to make changes? That's what has been stated but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Not scripture. The Catholic Church subscribes to the idea called Holy Tradition AKA Sacred Tradition by which custom and opinion, if (allegedly) consistent, is considered to be another source of divine revelation. So yes, there are doctrines taught by the RCC which have no Biblical basis. The bodily Assumption of Mary into heaven is one example.

Thomas White · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
It is known that the Catholic church teaches there own doctrine that is outside of the Bible. This is what I am referring to.

I'm not sure there is a single denomination that does not teach some things that have no biblical basis. Can you think of one?

bbbbbbb · Mar 2, 2021

Thomas White said:
I'm not sure there is a single denomination that does not teach some things that have no biblical basis. Can you think of one?

Precisely. Even the SDA which takes great pride (which is a sin in itself) in asserting that they believe the Bible only have added many doctrines not found in the Bible at all, such as the infamous "Investigative Judgement".

SabbathBlessings · Mar 2, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Precisely. Even the SDA which takes great pride (which is a sin in itself) in asserting that they believe the Bible only have added many doctrines not found in the Bible at all, such as the infamous "Investigative Judgement".

If you were familiar with the SDA fundamental beliefs, you would know we require all scripture to be tested against the Bible. The Bible is the ultimate authority.

prodromos · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
we require all scripture to be tested against the Bible

Ya think?

Albion · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
If you were familiar with the SDA fundamental beliefs, you would know we require all scripture to be tested against the Bible. The Bible is the ultimate authority.

Just about any Protestant would say the same thing. It's a fundamental principle of Protestant Christianity. The question then becomes, "which church, if any, has it right?"

SabbathBlessings · Mar 2, 2021

Albion said:
Just about any Protestant would say the same thing. It's a fundamental principle of Protestant Christianity. The question then becomes, "which church, if any, has it right?"

That's why we should know scripture so when your church deviates from it, you start looking for a new church.

Jaxxi · Mar 2, 2021

Albion said:
FWIW, I don't quite agree with one part of that.

The RCC does consider other Christians to be separated brethren and their baptisms valid. However, all of them are also considered by the RCC to be under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church even if they don't know it.

At the same time, it's now common for Catholic clergy to decline to call other denominations by the word "church," preferring instead "ecclesial communities."

Therefore, that "One and Only True Church" notion is still operable.

Because you don't agree to it? Show me in the Bible ONE SCRIPTURE that tells us to pray to Mary. Show me ONE that says Mary has the power to bless anyone for anything. Show me in the Holy Bible that we are to pray to any Saints or show me ANYWHERE where it tells us to pray to ANYONE but the Lord Himself. Please. I am dying to see it. Any church that preaches to pray to ANYONE but the Lord is not the true church. What is the FIRST Commandment of the Bible? " Ye shall have no other God's before me. " People only pray to their God. How else will He hear your prayer? Who can trust a human soul with any of their prayers? That is like asking a school principal to get a message to the President. He would have a hard time doing it, if he even actually tried to do it.

Albion · Mar 2, 2021

Jaxxi said:
It has absolutely been presented in this discussion...
From a single angle? There is only one angle if you are looking at the pope and the statue.

No, no. Earlier, the picture was presented so that it looked like eyes on either side of what you referred to as fangs. But in reality, the so-called eyes are not in the position of eyes. They are not on either side of centerpiece or "mouth," but are on the two side walls at right angles to the alleged fangs. It makes the snake theory impossible.

So what you have here is the Pope speaking directly from the mouth of a serpent. There is no mistaking this. It is obvious, blatant and on purpose. Very intentional. If you want to remain in denial that is your business. Those are fangs he is seated in between. Each circle is an eye. They even got the scales right. How can you not see that?

Albion · Mar 2, 2021

Jaxxi said:
Because you don't agree to it?

No. I merely said that I disagree...and then I explained why. You might want to take a look at the explanation before replying.

Show me in the Bible ONE SCRIPTURE that tells us to pray to Mary.

Why should I do that?

Show me ONE that says Mary has the power to bless anyone for anything.

See above.

Show me in the Holy Bible that we are to pray to any Saints or show me ANYWHERE where it tells us to pray to ANYONE but the Lord Himself. Please. I am dying to see it.

Why are you asking me? Put your questions to a CF member who teaches those things. On the OBOB forum, perhaps.

prodromos · Mar 2, 2021

Jaxxi said:
It has absolutely been presented in this discussion. Enough so that one can do their own research on the topic and find the evi

From a single angle? There is only one angle if you are looking at the pope and the statue. View attachment 295659 View attachment 295660 So what you have here is the Pope speaking directly from the mouth of a serpent. There is no mistaking this. It is obvious, blatant and on purpose. Very intentional. If you want to remain in denial that is your business. Those are fangs he is seated in between. Each circle is an eye. They even got the scales right. How can you not see that?

The lights on the ceiling are in straight lines parallel to each other. Does the photo show that? The stained glass windows are opposite each other on walls which again are parallel. Does the photo sho that? The image you've posted is deliberately distorted to make something appear that isn't there. No one sitting in that hall would see a snake because human eyes don't have wide angle lenses.

Jaxxi · Mar 2, 2021

Thomas White said:
Jesus is always with us, especially in the darkest of times. Do you disagree?

View attachment 295636 Undoctored? The photo I showed you is not doctored. That just sounds stupid. Go online and look at all the pictures looking at the statue head on. Your picture is not looking at the statue. You are reaching man.

Here is a real, undoctored look at the side of the Paul VI Audience Hall. As you can see, the actual inside is square, making the rounded image of a snake quite impossible. The photo you continue to reference is a doctored photo shot with a particular camera effect. You are using that photo to link the Church to Satan. You are quite literally placing stumbling blocks in front of others because of a doctored photo.

Thomas White · Mar 2, 2021

staff edit

As I showed you with my picture, the walls containing the windows are at right angles to the stage. The pictures you show used a panoramic filter that allowed the entire sight line to be captured; however, it distorts the angles and makes them look nonexistent. With the actual angles, it is clear that the windows are just windows. Here is another picture showing that:

7efa1816-1238-450f-b6a7-46532c3c7c73-smallScale_AP20302332529351.jpg

Valletta · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
Considering what the serpent represents in the Bible, if I was making a sanctuary, I would not want it to be remotely mistaken for anything that represents evil. I have my own opinion on it that goes deeper than what I prefer to share here. Many Catholics are God loving people Christians can be found in many denominations. Sometimes its not the people but the institutions. That’s said, I am not a fan that the RCC keeps trying to make a “universal church” when they keep changing God’s Words from the Bible and teach scripture outside of His Word, which leaves room to start following someone else other than God without even realizing it. It is all written in the Bible which is why we need to know the scriptures, so we continue on the path that leads us to God. God bless

The Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. Those same books, in the exact same order, are the books in Catholic Bibles today. The Catholic Church not only preached and preserved the Bible over the centuries, but translated Biblical text into many different languages. Translations are never perfect, languages are in flux so there will always be differences in translations.

prodromos · Mar 2, 2021

imge said:
I've compared the photos, the windows are on the side, but when you look at it straight on, it does exactly look like a serpent.

That is impossible unless your eyes have wide angle lenses.

prodromos · Mar 2, 2021

Jaxxi said:
My photo is not doctored. Here let's look at more.

It is distorted. Its just like if I took your profile picture and stretched it out, then presented it as evidence that you were obese.

Jaxxi · Mar 2, 2021

Thomas White said:
As already stated, the sculpture does not depict Him coming up from Hell.

It doesn't depict Him coming on any clouds either. When I read the Bible I hear of Jesus coming with Saints, and armies of Angels but never dead skulls and corpses, or demon looking creatures. And Jesus does not rise up out of the earth. There could only be one who would rise up out of the earth with demonic looking corpses, and his name is not Jesus Christ.

Jaxxi · Mar 2, 2021

prodromos said:
It is distorted. Its just like if I took your profile picture and stretched it out, then presented it as evidence that you were obese.

They are not distorted! I posted 3 of the same image if you don't like the one. Nothing has been added, or changed. I am sorry if your church auditorium looks like a snakes face. I am sorry it was done deliberately. I am sorry that from the outside even they made it resemble a snakes head. The outside should tell you what is on the inside.

prodromos said:
It is distorted. Its just like if I took your profile picture and stretched it out, then presented it as evidence that you were obese.

I posted 3 pictures of the same thing. There is nothing stretched or distorted about this.

but it's ok. That is the Popes preference.

You guys are acting like you can't see the snake face in the auditorium. Is this picture stretched? Does the Pope look obese? The Pope has a snake theme! Just accept it and see what he is making obvious to the world. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Very. It is disturbing. For Catholics who are true Christians, I am sorry that he has gone this route. You guys deserve better, and he is going out of his way to make something obvious. What that is you need to decide for yourselves and come to terms with it. Maybe he is not the best man for the holy position because the only one distorting anything is Pope Frances himself.

prodromos · Mar 3, 2021

Jaxxi said:
They are not distorted! I posted 3 of the same image if you don't like the one. Nothing has been added, or changed. I am sorry if your church auditorium looks like a snakes face. I am sorry it was done deliberately. I am sorry that from the outside even they made it resemble a snakes head. The outside should tell you what is on the inside.

I posted 3 pictures of the same thing. There is nothing stretched or distorted about this. View attachment 295691

I asked earlier in a post you didn't respond to, so I'll ask again.
The lights on the ceiling run from front to back in straight parallel lines. Does the above picture show this? No, because it is distorted due to being photographed with an extreme wide angle lense. Whatever is near the centre of focus is least distorted, but everything becomes successively more distorted as you move out from the centre of view. There isn't a single straight line anywhere.
The stained glass windows are opposite each other on walls that are parallel. Does the above picture show this? No, because once again it is distorted due to being photographed with an extreme wide angle lense.
Human eyes do not have wide angle lenses. Someone sitting at the back, looking to the front would barely see the stained glass windows in their peripheral vision. No one sitting in the hall will see anything remotely resembling a snake. The building was not designed to resemble a snake.
BTW, I'm not Catholic and I really couldn't care less if you thought it looked like the face of the devil, but the more you argue this the more foolish you appear.
Also, you do realise the 2nd photo in your post above is from The Onion, a parody news site. I hope you didn't think it was a real picture.

The church must be catholic!

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