Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

In-Christ-Alone

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@In-Christ-Alone

I actually found it, well part of it only maybe actually, but maybe enough of it for you to get a general idea of how important I think repentance is maybe, individually and "for all" maybe, etc...

It's these two posts mainly #535, and #536 right after it, etc...

I'm only going to give #535 though, as the other is just right after it, etc...

Does God love all or some?

God Bless!

all will not repent and believe, but this does not mean that the Gospel has failed in any why. I did not quite understand what you are trying to say?
 
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LightLoveHope

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Love heart to skin is the Kingdom of heaven. The law is it's benchmark, a guardian against sinners storming the gates.

Many claim faith with hard rotten hearts and claim they know Jesus. This is like a beggar dressed in rags claiming they are rich and powerful and live a life in a huge house.
 
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LightLoveHope

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Jesus amplified the law
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:27-29

The Christian is not under any of the Law, Ten Commandments, or otherwise. If you believe that we are, the question you must answer is, "Are you completely obedient to all God commands?" That is a yes or no question. There is no, "I try my best" or "God gives me grace when I fall short."

The Law's standard is perfection
"For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all." James 2:10

"Therefore you shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account
"... for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law."

There no law for Christians because God is no longer counting our sins against us. So, God is not holding any violation of the law against me because He has taken it away at the Cross and given us a New Covenant.

Practicing Sin
"No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9

If you are subjecting yourself to the Ten Commandments then you will be "practicing" sin because the law stirs up sin by giving you more things to think about not doing. You will experience what Paul did in Romans 7 regarding coveting, which is one of the Ten Commandments.

"But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead." Romans 7:8

We keep sin alive by trying to live by the Law.

Grace and Peace
We are justified by faith in Jesus through repentance and obedience.

Arguing sin is breaking the law misses sin is not communing with God. From God flows everything and this transforms us.

Too many sinners claim faith yet have no heart cleansed and purified. They have no wisdom or insight and hope by removing morality they are saved. But the lost are lost like these folk, believing God will not judge them because they sing and say a few words.

It .matters not, like chaff they will be blown away into the fire. God bless you
 
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Neogaia777

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all will not repent and believe, but this does not mean that the Gospel has failed in any why. I did not quite understand what you are trying to say?
No, it hasn't failed, it's just in that thread, they were trying to say God would save all, and that he has to save all in order to be just, etc, so I was fighting against that in that thread also, etc...

But that doesn't mean the Gospel has failed, etc...

But my point about repentance individually, is that it first takes a right kind of saving faith/belief, and then repentance afterward, in order to be saved, etc...

And I think I tried to explain to someone later on in that thread that it doesn't really take all that much to just have just only a saving faith/belief only, etc, and that, that part, was just, at it's most basic parts, was just a faith/belief in "Jesus Christ and Him crucified", basically, etc, and that you don't have to have all the knowledge or have all of the mysteries fully known and/or solved or fully resolved, etc, in order to have just only that or just only that much only, etc, but that the hard part was the repentance afterwards that must follow, etc, which is also required to be saved also, etc...

And my argument to those other guys in that thread and in that specific post, etc, was that not all would be saved, because not all would do that, or would be able to do that completely, etc...

Anyway, I hope that explains it a little bit better...?

God Bless!
 
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SkyWriting

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Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. According to scripture we should test ourselves to ensure we are in the faith.

According to some parts of scripture, women shouldn't own property or have the right to vote, or speak in church. According to ALL of scripture, women should be treated equally.
 
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SkyWriting

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If we remove God's laws what are we really teaching and what are we removing from our lives?

Women get to vote now. And talk in church. And own property. And sign loans.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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According to some parts of scripture, women shouldn't own property or have the right to vote, or speak in church. According to ALL of scripture, women should be treated equally.
Sometimes it may appear things are not always fair. Men cannot carry babies or breastfeed. Women cannot have have babies without the seed of man. Angles are not able to procreate. God designed each of us the way He intended. We all have our specials gifts. Sin started because someone wanted something that they didn’t have. Instead of looking at what we don’t have, I think its important to look at all the blessings God did give us. God bless
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 7, the whole chapter, etc...
2 Corinthians 3, the whole chapter...
Galatians 2:16-21...
...
Anyway, I think that is quite enough for now...

Quite enough to make "what point"? - that the lost are still lost under the continued Law of God - see Rom 3:19-20 in the old covenant agreement/condition of "Obey and live" as Paul points out in Gal 3??

fine.

And the saved still have the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant result of sins forgiven and the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers -"Written on heart and mind" such that the same LAW of God condemning all mankind as sinners according to Rom 3:19-20 - is "Established" in the case of the saints Rom 3:31 rather than "abolished" by faith.
 
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BobRyan

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Hint there is no "return to Judaism" text in all of Hebrew.

It's like in other NT letters; e.g., where "Gnosticism" is not specifically mentioned in the letter but content and history inform of its context.

No ... it is not.
The term "judaizer" is like that - since it stands for the phrase/idea of "trying to get gentiles to become Jews as if this is needed to be saved".

But the phrase "return to Judaism" (so specifically about Jews returning) is not a concept condemned in the Bible (OT or NT) - so we cannot just eisegete it into the text - that is eisegesis.

details matter when establishing sound Bible doctrine.
 
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BobRyan

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As for Jewish Christians - Acts 21 makes it clear as to what they were being told --

Acts 21: . 20 And when they heard about them, they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law.

No such debate of that form appears at all in the entire book of Hebrews. In reality. But we can see it in Acts 21 for those who want to see the primary text on that topic.

Yes, when it didn't violate his allegiance to Christ,

The OT is scripture 2 Pet 1:19-21 and scripture never violates "allegiance to Christ".

This is true even in the extreme case of -- "23 .. we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law."

(A glaringly obvious detail you completely skipped over in your response.)

Hint: if we look at what the Jews were accusing Paul of doing - it is the very thing that some folks here accuse Paul of teaching. And the remedy then becomes "a lie" told by Paul denying the very thing that some folks here claim Paul was teaching.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers.
 
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BobRyan

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Paul became all things to all men so that by all possible means, he might save some.

"To the Jews, I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though
I myself am not under the law
), so as to win those under the law.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

To the weak, I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." (1Co 9:19-23)

Which only further proves that there was no such thing as "Judaism is a rejection of Christ" ... Paul did not say "I opposed Christ so that might win those that oppose Christ" or "I sinned that I might win sinners"

Rather he demonstrates the extent to which Judaism in fact does NOT oppose Christ.

Nevertheless, Paul was very careful not to sacrifice Christian principle in any act of obedience to the law.

Since that would be impossible and Paul himself states that CHRIST is the one who gave the Law Heb 8:6-12.

While he had Timothy circumcised so that his work among the Jews would be more effective,

Precisely. Right after fighting the battle against the unscriptural "tradition" made up by some Christian Jews that gentiles needed to observe the ceremonial law to be saved - Paul insists that Timothy (who had a gentile father) - be circumcised.

Which still - did nothing to violate the Gospel. (In Judaism the affiliation with Israel is always through the mother - and Timothy's mother was a Jew).

he would not have Titus circumcised (Gal 2:3)

Because both of Titus' parents were gentiles and there was never a command in OT or NT for gentiles to be circumcised in order to be saved.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
As you have noted - a great many Christian denominations affirm all Ten of the Ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant. Taking that POV for a moment - then it means one cannot use Gal 3 to obliterate the command to "not take God's name in vain" or the Sabbath commandment.

Indeed, but one can use it to question SDA interpretations of those commandments.

If you look at the details in the sources I give regarding the topic of the TEN Commandments

1. they all affirm the SDA interpretation as to what the Bible said about the TEN... every one of them. Agree on the TEN as "God gave them" and their application to all mankind from Eden to the Cross -- full agreement.

2.There is also full agreement that the Ten continue to be written on heart and mind under the New Covenant and continue to apply to all mankind

3. Where the differences come in is when those groups claim that church tradition edited the Sabbath commandment to repoint it to week-day-1 -- SDAs and many others - say that tradition was in error whereas the groups I listed , choose tradition at that dividing point.​

So here are the three major concepts as numbered above. SDAs (and all other Sabbath keeping groups) are in line with the groups I listed on points 1 and 2 above.

But if you go to the Sabbath-and-the-Law forum you find that 99.999% of all opposition to SDAs (and all other Sabbath keeping groups) regarding the TEN commandments -- is being limited to just those first two points above - EVEN though this is precisely where the Sabbath-opposing arguments are most conflicted with their own pro-Sunday scholarship.

Very "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader in my POV.
 
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GraceBro

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We are justified by faith in Jesus through repentance and obedience.

Arguing sin is breaking the law misses sin is not communing with God. From God flows everything and this transforms us.

Too many sinners claim faith yet have no heart cleansed and purified. They have no wisdom or insight and hope by removing morality they are saved. But the lost are lost like these folk, believing God will not judge them because they sing and say a few words.

It .matters not, like chaff they will be blown away into the fire. God bless you
To live a life of obedience and repentance means you have to subject yourself to a standard to measure yourself by. That standard is God's law. And He demands 100% obedience or face the consequences. I don't live a life of obedience and repentance. I live a life of trust and dependence.

A life of obedience and repentance is a life of focusing on myself and what I am doing or not doing. A life of trust and dependence is a life of focusing on God and what He is doing in and through me.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20)."

Grace and Peace.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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To live a life of obedience and repentance means you have to subject yourself to a standard to measure yourself by. That standard is God's law. And He demands 100% obedience or face the consequences. I don't live a life of obedience and repentance. I live a life of trust and dependence.

A life of obedience and repentance is a life of focusing on myself and what I am doing or not doing. A life of trust and dependence is a life of focusing on God and what He is doing in and through me.

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me (Galatians 2:20)."

Grace and Peace.

Actually its quite the opposite. A life of obedience to God is a life focusing on what God wants us to do. Sin is selfishness, doing our own will and not Gods. I trust God that the laws He provided will make me morally a better person and bring me closer to Him because Jesus tells us that.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s
commandments and abide in His love.
 
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GraceBro

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Actually its quite the opposite. A life of obedience to God is a life focusing on what God wants us to do. Sin is selfishness, doing our own will and not Gods. I trust God that the laws He provided will make me morally a better person and bring me closer to Him because Jesus tells us that.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s
commandments and abide in His love.
That is what someone under the law should believe. You are looking for God to tell you how to modify your flesh. The question is are you doing it? The answer is "No." When you stand before God are you going to say you deserve to be in Heaven because you tried your best to obey His commandments or by believing what you heard? It can't be both. Obedience to God is believing Him. What did Paul say about his "obedience" to the law?

"For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ (Philippians 3:3-7)."

His faultless obedience to the law was nothing compared to knowing Christ. Trying to obey the law is putting confidence in the flesh. It is not serving God by His Spirit. It is boasting in your flesh and not Christ. The bottom line is that we believe in two separate Gospels. You believe in one of works. I believe in one of rest. Rather than continue this conversation, let us agree to disagree and pray for each other. We cannot both be correct, but we can both be wrong. God does have an opinion on this and we can trust Him to tell us what that is. I am finished replying to this. I have more than laid out my reasons for the hope I have in Christ and not in managing my flesh. Grace and Peace.
 
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So now that everyone has argued this point and that point......what's the bottom line?

God's law is eternal because He is eternal.

Denominations that say God's law is no more are false.

Denominations that say dis-obedience to their interpretation of God's law are false.

That sums it up I think. :)
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That is what someone under the law should believe. You are looking for God to tell you how to modify your flesh. The question is are you doing it? The answer is "No." When you stand before God are you going to say you deserve to be in Heaven because you tried your best to obey His commandments or by believing what you heard? It can't be both. Obedience to God is believing Him. What did Paul say about his "obedience" to the law?

"For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless. But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ (Philippians 3:3-7)."

His faultless obedience to the law was nothing compared to knowing Christ. Trying to obey the law is putting confidence in the flesh. It is not serving God by His Spirit. It is boasting in your flesh and not Christ. The bottom line is that we believe in two separate Gospels. You believe in one of works. I believe in one of rest. Rather than continue this conversation, let us agree to disagree and pray for each other. We cannot both be correct, but we can both be wrong. God does have an opinion on this and we can trust Him to tell us what that is. I am finished replying to this. I have more than laid out my reasons for the hope I have in Christ and not in managing my flesh. Grace and Peace.

I think you are confusing one for the other. As I stated previously, if there was no laws we would not need grace, we are not saved by obeying, we obey because we are saved.

God knows us by our fruits. When we believe in Him, put our faith in Him, trust Him, follow Him, love Him with all our hearts and seek Him, we will obey. That's how Jesus says He will know us.


Mathew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So now that everyone has argued this point and that point......what's the bottom line?

God's law is eternal because He is eternal.

Denominations that say God's law is no more are false.

Denominations that say dis-obedience to their interpretation of God's law are false.

That sums it up I think. :)

Great question.

There will come a time, sooner than later where we all will need to make a choice. A lot of people confuse what the mark of the beast is, despite the scriptures clearly telling us.

The mark of the beast is about worship:

Revelations 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

This verse takes you right back to God's Sabbath commandment:

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Sabbath is eternal Psalms 111:7,8 which is why we will worship Him on the New Earth each and every Sabbath Isaiah 66:23

Worship was changed and clearly documented. The Roman Catholic church proudly takes credit for changing God's Sabbath. They want you to know when you worship on Sunday you are not obeying a commandment of God, but a commandment of the Catholic church:

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.
there are many more direct quotes.....

Jesus warns us of obeying commandments of man:

Mathew 15
8: These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


Revelations:14 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
God wants us to get out of confusion (look at all the comments over God's 4th commandment) and get back to worshipping Him who is Creator of all things. The only day in the Bible God deemed Holy is the seventh day, His Sabbath.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The mark is not a literal mark- it is who we worship. In our forehead (minds)and on our hand (through our actions).

That's why the next verse says:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And this promise:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless
 
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Clare73

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Hint there is no "return to Judaism" text in all of Hebrew.
Clare73 said:
Wouldn't that be the same as no "return to Gnosticism" text in all of the NT?
BobRyan said:
No ... it is not.
The term "judaizer" is like that - since it stands for the phrase/idea of "trying to get gentiles to become Jews as if this is needed to be saved".
Not quite. . .in Paul's letters, Judaizers were trying to require circumcision for salvation.
But the phrase "return to Judaism" (so specifically about Jews returning) is not a concept condemned in the Bible (OT or NT).
Judaism does not believe in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, which is what is being condemned in Heb 6:4-6.
 
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Great question.

There will come a time, sooner than later where we all will need to make a choice. A lot of people confuse what the mark of the beast is, despite the scriptures clearly telling us.

The mark of the beast is about worship:

Revelations 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

This verse takes you right back to God's Sabbath commandment:

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The Sabbath is eternal Psalms 111:7,8 which is why we will worship Him on the New Earth each and every Sabbath Isaiah 66:23

Worship was changed and clearly documented. The Catholic church proudly takes credit for changing God's Sabbath. They want you to know when you worship on Sunday you are not obeying a commandment of God, but the commandment of the Catholic church:

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.
there are many more direct quotes.....

Jesus warns us of obeying commandments of man:

Mathew 15
8: These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”


Revelations:14 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
God wants us to get out of confusion (look at all the comments over God's 4th commandment) and get back to worshipping Him who is Creator of all things. The only day in the Bible God deemed Holy is the seventh day, His Sabbath.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The mark is not a literal mark- it is who we worship. In our forehead (minds)and on our hand (through our actions).

That's why the next verse says:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

And this promise:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless

It was actually a rhetorical question. That I answered with the statements below it. :)

The mark of the beast is not what day of the week you do(or don't do) something. This would fall under the third statement I made.
 
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