Other than your own, what liturgical tradition is your favorite?

The Liturgist

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More than 20 years ago I had the opportunity to join a small group of Syrian orthodox believers - and, no, I don’t know which exact group that was and whether they pray in Arabic or Aramaic - in their Easter liturgy. It was very moving. As they had to use a general gathering room rather than a church they were all gathered, even crowded around their priest. Very different from what I have seen in liturgies in Orthodox churches. And they were singing all the time. And moving around together. It was special.

There is a Syriac Orthodox monastery and seminary in Switzerland, which given my love for their liturgy and for Switzerland sounds rather blissful. Based on demographic data alone, I am going to guess you were at a Syriac Orthodox liturgy and were hearing the usual mix of Classical Syriac Aramaic, Greek and Arabic that dominates their services. The crowding was probably unintentional, but during communion the Syriac Orthodox will cluster together around the priest.
 
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Paidiske

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I also greatly for this reason like the Prayer of Humble Access from the Anglican liturgy.

I dislike it intensely, and in fact (since it is optional in our rite) refuse to use it. After confession and absolution, to go back to "we are not worthy..." is to deny the effectiveness of God's action in our lives. It is Christ's worth given to and made real in us which enlivens, and we should not deny or avoid it!

That’s a valid concern but the Orthodox have a liturgy* for that: blessing an existing marriage, which is a joyful service normally done by the way when receiving married couples into their Church.

Yes, but my point is not that they won't bless an existing marriage, but that they consider existing marriages outside their church to be less-than. That's a position I find detestable; my marriage, or yours, or that of any other couple, is not any less a marriage for not having been conducted as an Orthodox sacrament.

Side note, but since you mention the All Night Vigil, have you ever heard Rachmaninoff's setting of it? Absolutely wonderful.
 
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prodromos

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I dislike it intensely, and in fact (since it is optional in our rite) refuse to use it. After confession and absolution, to go back to "we are not worthy..." is to deny the effectiveness of God's action in our lives. It is Christ's worth given to and made real in us which enlivens, and we should not deny or avoid it!
You clearly know better than your predecessors.
Yes, but my point is not that they won't bless an existing marriage, but that they consider existing marriages outside their church to be less-than.
We consider them marriages. We can't consider them sacramental marriages.
That's a position I find detestable; my marriage, or yours, or that of any other couple, is not any less a marriage for not having been conducted as an Orthodox sacrament.
So we should be inconsistent with our theology in order not to hurt the feelings of those outside the Orthodox Church?
 
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Paidiske

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You clearly know better than your predecessors.

It's my predecessors who made it an optional part of the liturgy, and left it to the judgement of the presiding priest whether or not it served the people present to include it.

We consider them marriages. We can't consider them sacramental marriages.

Exactly my point.

So we should be inconsistent with our theology in order not to hurt the feelings of those outside the Orthodox Church?

You should do whatever seems right to you. But it's open to others to find that either an appealing witness to the reign of God, or not.
 
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The Liturgist

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I dislike it intensely, and in fact (since it is optional in our rite) refuse to use it. After confession and absolution, to go back to "we are not worthy..." is to deny the effectiveness of God's action in our lives. It is Christ's worth given to and made real in us which enlivens, and we should not deny or avoid it!

Actually that’s a really valid criticism of the Cranmerian text. Is Archbishop Cranmer in fact overrated compared to some ancient liturgists, such as, we assume, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, and whoever wrote the Roman Canon and the liturgies attributed to St. Mark, St. James and the Twelve Apostles, or in more recent centuries, someone like Rev. John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House? We do know the pattern for the most exquisite Morning and Evening Prayer was in fact based on the rejected reform of the Roman Breviary by Cardinal Quinones? I myself have always been spellbound by Cranmer as a liturgist even as I disagree with other aspects of his work, and agree with the consensus that the BCP is on a par with the Authorized Version, but you do raise a valid point concerning anaphoral structure, that being, at what point does it cease to become appropriate, if it doess, to include a confiteor or language suggesting a fear of unworthy reception?

If we look at the ancient Roman missal, we do find the Priest saying things questioning his worthiness to partake right up until the moment he does “I am not worthy that Thou shouldst enter under my roof.” In the Coptic Rite on the other hand, the last thing the Priest prays is a more confession of faith, but with a certain fear and contrition.

Now it seems to me it would be cheap to suggest that the Prayer of Humble Access or equivalents such as what one finds in the Roman Canon are necessary because of the fact that people in the Congregation have perhaps inadvertently sinned in between the Confiteor and communion. But perhaps there is another alternative liturgical function relating? Or it could be that because the state of sin is constant, ancient liturgists followed a pattern wherein some contrition is maintained as the Eucharist approaches. Or lastly, all such prayers could be late additions, which Fr. Robert Taft refers to as “accretions,” a word I personally dislike in liturgical settings because it assumes that whatever presumed pastoral necessity prompted additions to ancient liturgical texts is no longer there.

Returning again to Archbishop Cranmer, there are always some texts of his that despite the overall captivating quality of the old BCP, I am personally uneasy with. Most specifically the Commination. This goes substantially past the anathemas the Eastern Orthodox intone on the eve of the Sunday of Orthodoxy, and basically seems to have a condemnatory effect on everyone. I’ve always been baffled by that service.

Yes, but my point is not that they won't bless an existing marriage, but that they consider existing marriages outside their church to be less-than. That's a position I find detestable; my marriage, or yours, or that of any other couple, is not any less a marriage for not having been conducted as an Orthodox sacrament.

I don’t know that’s the case at all (that they hold that position) because whether or not a prior marriage was blessed or not, it seems to be assumed valid in Orthodox pastoral praxis. To the extent that if that prior marriage was with a non-Orthodox, and one then divorced and married an Orthodox, to my knowledge the rule is the more penitential liturgy would be applied. Unless the priest really didn’t care, and some don’t. And I recall the case of several couples who did convert via chrismation whose existing marriages were simply accepted. But this does run into the paradox I mentioned in my initial post concerning their idea on who performs the marriage: if indeed the priest does perform the marriage on the couple, one would have to assume the Orthodox Church, which developed this doctrine probably well before Chalcedon, since we see the same liturgy with minor variations in the Oriental churches, simply disagreed with Rome on who actually performed the marriage.

I would also note that when the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, who I greatly admire (despite the various criticisms I could make about the 1984 Welsh BCP), did wed the current heir apparent to the Crown in 2011, and in general in Western liturgies, even the most humble Baptist services in the Southern US where you have a “Reverend” or “Preacher,” it does appear that in most cases even where the text, as in the unforgettable “Dearly beloved breathren” does explicitly say “witness,” is sacramentally participating in the matrimonial liturgy in an indispensable manner, and that when judges or ship captains perform marriages, even then it has the appearance of the Orthodox sacrament.

Side note, but since you mention the All Night Vigil, have you ever heard Rachmaninoff's setting of it? Absolutely wonderful.

It is splendid, and fascinated me for months when I first heard it although where Rachmaninoff really gets me is in the Cherubic Hymn and the pre-communion hymn from his setting of the Divine Liturgy, to the extent that music seems to echo in my ears every time some blessing arrives in my life. The Anglo-Catholic C of E parish in London, All Saints Margaret Street, which is known for being musically well-equipped, did attempt with partial success to adapt Rachmaninoff to the Anglican Evensong and Communion Service, but its not quite the same because Rachmaninoff relied on the rhythmic qualities of Church Slavonic and when you translate it and swap out the text for a shorter one there will be something lost.

Now for those who like me, greatly admire Rachmaninoff, I have found Dmitri Bortniansky and Pavel Chesnokov to be worth seeking out in terms of their liturgical settings. There is also a contemporary Ukrainian Catholic composer, Roman Hurko, whose works I like. He also composed a moving Requiem for victims of the Chernobyl accident. Actually most distinctly Slavonic church music I like, even the simple chant systems like Znamenny and so-called “Greek Chant”, which is nothing like the Byzantine Chant associated with the Greek Orthodox Church, but which the Russians and Bulgarians do also use.

There is also a related musical region which one might find difficult to listen to at first, that being the triphonal music of the Church of Georgia, which has three cantors rather than the ancient antiphonal system of early church music, which one sees reflected in Byzantine or Syriac or Coptic chant. Although difficult to approach, I now absolutely love Georgian church music; unfortunately they have only three parishes in the US which due to the pandemic are inaccessible or inoperative.

Lastly, a fun fact: according to St. Anthony’s Monastery (the one in Florence, Arizona, not Egypt or California), some Byzantine chant if transposed to Western notation from Byzantine notation can experience up to a 66% loss of fidelity. It’s highly technical, Byzantine even, but I think it is safe to say Byzantine Chant should be written in Byzantine notation: Byzantine vs. Western Notation
 
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The Liturgist

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You clearly know better than your predecessors.

We consider them marriages. We can't consider them sacramental marriages.

Just out of curiosity, is that in the Pedalion? Because I do have a copy and am inclined to take a look at relevant canons. I do recall one concerning the reception of polygamists.
 
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The Liturgist

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Oh by the way @Paidiske I have mentioned this before, and we discussed it, but I do want to purchase online somewhere a copy of A Prayerbook for Australia. I do have a copy of the very boring ultra-low church book recently published by the Archdiocese of Sydney, but as you can well imagine, I would prefer to see the rest. I doubt its shockingly different from any other modern Anglican service books, but in my liturgical library I am to have anything.

Which reminds me, anyone have a spare 12 volume Monthly Menaion* lying around? ^_^

*Unlike old hymnals and service books, the complete monthly menaion was only recently translated into English, does actually consist of 12 volumes, and costs around US $1,200. But there is actually very little in there one can’t get, in many cases for free, elsewhere, and it is primarily of use for parishes determined to do lots of weekday services in English.

Also, another fun Byzantine fact: a lot of Greek Orthodox liturgical texts are written IN ALL CAPS WITH /// symbols to indicate strophes to the cantors. This makes them very unpleasant to read, so I tend to seek out Russian Orthodox translations. Specifically I try to avoid the books published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Boston as they are highly optimized for use by cantors, but if I were to take up Byzantine chant, which is not outside the realm of possibility as I have no doubt I could at least hold down an ison, I would actively seek out those same volumes, owing to this specialized notation, which is not as applicable to Slavonic usage (except for Slavonic Byzantine Chant, which one sees heavily in Bulgaria, but mainly Serbia, and only occasionally in Russia).

I am not the greatest fan of Byzantine Chant but it does seem to translate unusually well between languages. It uses 8 modes, like Gregorian and Syriac chant (and most other ancient forms, including Anglican Plainsong).
 
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prodromos

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It's my predecessors who made it an optional part of the liturgy, and left it to the judgement of the presiding priest whether or not it served the people present to include it.
So why do you do confession and absolution again, week after week. Doesn't that deny the effectiveness of God's action in your lives?
Exactly my point.
It's the same with baptisms and all the other sacraments, so why would you care seeing as you not part of the Orthodox communion?
You should do whatever seems right to you.
We will follow the canons laid out by our predecessors for the sake of the unity of the Church.
But it's open to others to find that either an appealing witness to the reign of God, or not.
I was raised in the Anglican Church. I did not find it a barrier to my conversion to Orthodoxy.
 
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Paidiske

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Is Archbishop Cranmer in fact overrated compared to some ancient liturgists, such as, we assume, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, and whoever wrote the Roman Canon and the liturgies attributed to St. Mark, St. James and the Twelve Apostles, or in more recent centuries, someone like Rev. John Hunter of the King’s Weigh House? We do know the pattern for the most exquisite Morning and Evening Prayer was in fact based on the rejected reform of the Roman Breviary by Cardinal Quinones? I myself have always been spellbound by Cranmer as a liturgist even as I disagree with other aspects of his work, and agree with the consensus that the BCP is on a par with the Authorized Version...

Returning again to Archbishop Cranmer, there are always some texts of his that despite the overall captivating quality of the old BCP, I am personally uneasy with.

My sense is that Cranmer's particular genius was as a compiler and arranger of liturgical text in a way which expressed the theology of the nascent Anglican church in a broadly inclusive way, and which (mostly) met the pastoral needs of the people of its time. As far as I know, very little of his work was truly original, but he drew on the older Sarum rite, a developing body of Lutheran rites, continental Catholic rites and ancient rites extensively.

He made at some points some unfortunate choices, and his work has not always dated well. In a place like Australia, at least, the cultural, linguistic and theological sensitivities of Anglicans have shifted so much that his liturgies as originally intended would be completely unfit for use here. Even parishes which celebrate 1662 BCP services (whether the Eucharist, evensong, or the occasional pastoral service) modify them to some extent (with the exception of the marriage service, which for obscure legal reasons, if it is used, must be used exactly as printed, which means it tends to be dusted off when we have brides who want to promise to "obey," as it's the only authorised service in which they do so).

Now it seems to me it would be cheap to suggest that the Prayer of Humble Access or equivalents such as what one finds in the Roman Canon are necessary because of the fact that people in the Congregation have perhaps inadvertently sinned in between the Confiteor and communion. But perhaps there is another alternative liturgical function relating? Or it could be that because the state of sin is constant, ancient liturgists followed a pattern wherein some contrition is maintained as the Eucharist approaches. Or lastly, all such prayers could be late additions, which Fr. Robert Taft refers to as “accretions,” a word I personally dislike in liturgical settings because it assumes that whatever presumed pastoral necessity prompted additions to ancient liturgical texts is no longer there.

It seems to have been an addition by Cranmer, perhaps loosely echoing an earlier prayer in the Sarum rite. Wikipedia relates its origins as: "a unique combination of several sources, including phrases or concepts from Mark 7:28, the Liturgy of St Basil, a Gregorian collect, John 6:56, and the writings of Thomas Aquinas." The 1662 BCP put it in the middle of the consecratory prayer, immediately after the Sanctus, which is most unusual; in the more modern rites it is generally moved to a position before the peace, where its contribution to the overall momentum of the liturgy is awkward, at best.

I would also note that when the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. Rowan Williams, who I greatly admire (despite the various criticisms I could make about the 1984 Welsh BCP), did wed the current heir apparent to the Crown in 2011, and in general in Western liturgies, even the most humble Baptist services in the Southern US where you have a “Reverend” or “Preacher,” it does appear that in most cases even where the text, as in the unforgettable “Dearly beloved breathren” does explicitly say “witness,” is sacramentally participating in the matrimonial liturgy in an indispensable manner, and that when judges or ship captains perform marriages, even then it has the appearance of the Orthodox sacrament.

My understanding is that the function of clergy at a marriage is two-fold; firstly, to witness the marriage, and secondly to pray for God's blessing upon the marriage. But the actual making of the marriage is in the freely exchanged consent of the couple, and not in anything the priest does.

(This is, as an aside, why you can't validly get married while under the influence; because that would impair your ability to consent. If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to get married; something I remind all my couples of at the rehearsal!)

You could order A Prayer Book for Australia through St. Peter's Bookroom. If you're going to do that, buy the red one, not the green one, (which is intended for individual use by lay people and does not include the pastoral services or the ordinal).
 
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The Liturgist

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It's interesting that you think that's a pastoral option; in all my reading on it I've come to the exact opposite conclusion. Imagine, for example, that you're getting married for the first time, but to someone whose spouse died; and you're only allowed a "penitential" wedding and marriage? As if it is something to be ashamed of? I think it's the exact opposite of pastoral.

I realized I did not properly address this. In such a specific case I would think a penitential service inappropriate.

In fact, to be clear, I don’t have a penitential service as I have not yet “crossed the Bosphorus.” But I am not sure I could remarry someone who had divorced and remarried seven times to someone else who had divorced and remarried five times, without at least some kind of validation process to make sure they were serious in this instance.

However, such people have become stereotypes of a vanishing age; now our present dilemma is people on their first or second marriages divorcing and thus causing trauma to their children. It is this trauma to children that makes me appreciate the Orthodox approach, which while clearly limited, does say something about the harm being done by the decline of social-marital cohesion to the youth. Does their approach say the right thing, in the right way, at all times? I don’t know. I do feel as though the Roman Catholics are too severe and we Protestants are too lenient owing to what I regard as a mistake on the part of the early reformers in reducing the number of sacraments.*

*Although I do understand their reasons; also some Patristic texts are inconsistent about the number of sacraments and I have some reason from my own research to believe that the idea that there are exactly seven and only seven sacraments is Roman Catholic; although many Orthodox texts also say that, some of their services like the Great Blessing of Water closely resemble their sacraments and seem to be more than sacramentals, and some, such as their prayers for the dead, which the early Protestants rejected, but which I feel for reasons better explained by CS Lewis should be reinstated, seem to have soteriological properties.

The great problem with Protestantism is that the early Protestants were attempting to re-evaluate the faith within the context of the Roman church, which had become at the time damaged by centuries of mismanagement and suffered a lack of proper catechesis and consistent pastoral care, and developed a certain queasiness towards “Popery.” What they did try to do, but failed, due to the lack of reliable information and only limited knowledge about the Eastern churches, was go back to a Patristic model. We see this in Calvin’s Institutes. There was an attempt, which we see in the BCP, to use Eastern liturgical items. But suppose John Calvin discovered the Assyrian Church of the East, and all of the writings it had of, say, Theodore of Mopsuestia? He might have restarted from scratch, but at the time, the Ottoman Empire had drawn a veil between the East and West and only small bits of questionable information passed between them.
 
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Paidiske

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So why do you do confession and absolution again, week after week. Doesn't that deny the effectiveness of God's action in your lives?

No, but to immediately after absolution, act as if the confession and absolution made no difference at all, seems to me to rob them of both their liturgical logic and their psychological force.

It's the same with baptisms and all the other sacraments, so why would you care seeing as you not part of the Orthodox communion?

As I understand it, baptism at least is more debated. My baptism certificate has a statement on the back listing all the churches who have agreed that it is valid, and the Greek Orthodox church is among them (from memory the Greek; definitely one of the Orthodox jurisdictions).

But I do care. I absolutely care that some Christians treat other Christians as second-class Christians. It's one of the reasons I'm an Anglican, because we don't do that.

I was raised in the Anglican Church. I did not find it a barrier to my conversion to Orthodoxy.

I wasn't raised going to church at all. But what I was articulating was that a sense of "we're better (or more really properly Christian) than you" is definitely something I find a barrier to any group. Not because of "hurt feelings" on my part, but because I would never wish to either treat my brothers and sisters that way, or to deny the presence and work of the Spirit in their lives.
 
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prodromos

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No, but to immediately after absolution, act as if the confession and absolution made no difference at all, seems to me to rob them of both their liturgical logic and their psychological force.
It is simply a recognition that we are still a work in progress. We prepare as best we can to receive the Holy Eucharist, but know that we still fall very far short, which is very clear in both the precommunion prayers and the postcommunion thanksgiving prayers. IMHO only the proud would consider themselves a finished work of Christ.
As I understand it, baptism at least is more debated. My baptism certificate has a statement on the back listing all the churches who have agreed that it is valid, and the Greek Orthodox church is among them (from memory the Greek; definitely one of the Orthodox jurisdictions).
You would be received by chrismation. The Orthodox Church recognises that the form of the Anglican baptism is valid, but it is still being performed outside the Orthodox Church so cannot be recognised as a sacrament. Hence chrismation, which fills the form of the baptism with grace.
But I do care. I absolutely care that some Christians treat other Christians as second-class Christians. It's one of the reasons I'm an Anglican, because we don't do that.
How does holding fast to the teaching of the Apostles handed down through the Church, equate to treating other Christians as second-class Christians?
My parents and siblings are not Orthodox but I in no way see them as second-class Christians.


I wasn't raised going to church at all. But what I was articulating was that a sense of "we're better (or more really properly Christian) than you" is definitely something I find a barrier to any group. Not because of "hurt feelings" on my part, but because I would never wish to either treat my brothers and sisters that way, or to deny the presence and work of the Spirit in their lives.[/QUOTE]
 
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The Liturgist

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My sense is that Cranmer's particular genius was as a compiler and arranger of liturgical text in a way which expressed the theology of the nascent Anglican church in a broadly inclusive way, and which (mostly) met the pastoral needs of the people of its time. As far as I know, very little of his work was truly original, but he drew on the older Sarum rite, a developing body of Lutheran rites, continental Catholic rites and ancient rites extensively.

He made at some points some unfortunate choices, and his work has not always dated well. In a place like Australia, at least, the cultural, linguistic and theological sensitivities of Anglicans have shifted so much that his liturgies as originally intended would be completely unfit for use here. Even parishes which celebrate 1662 BCP services (whether the Eucharist, evensong, or the occasional pastoral service) modify them to some extent (with the exception of the marriage service, which for obscure legal reasons, if it is used, must be used exactly as printed, which means it tends to be dusted off when we have brides who want to promise to "obey," as it's the only authorised service in which they do so).

This is actually some of the best criticism of Cranmer as a liturgist I have read. And that’s after having read, among other books, The Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer, which is very good, by the way.

Now regarding the Sarum Liturgy, I get the feeling that he used this as his main source for collects and so forth, and that its influence was more prominent in the 1549 BCP than the 1552, which is the basis for the 1662 and derivatives. I have a very good book on English liturgical history called The Liturgy in Medieval England by Richard W. Pfaff.

It seems to have been an addition by Cranmer, perhaps loosely echoing an earlier prayer in the Sarum rite. Wikipedia relates its origins as: "a unique combination of several sources, including phrases or concepts from Mark 7:28, the Liturgy of St Basil, a Gregorian collect, John 6:56, and the writings of Thomas Aquinas." The 1662 BCP put it in the middle of the consecratory prayer, immediately after the Sanctus, which is most unusual; in the more modern rites it is generally moved to a position before the peace, where its contribution to the overall momentum of the liturgy is awkward, at best.

Interesting. I will have to pull up that article and delve into the sources.

Out of curiosity, is your opposition to that prayer absolute, or would you tolerate it if it were included in a manner which did not appear to invalidate the Absolution?

I have seen non-Anglican liturgies which move the prayer around and alter it, including Lutheran and Western Rite Orthodox liturgies, and perhaps your objection is the reason why.

I myself, because of the penitential content in various rites in extremely close proximity to the Eucharist, am not entirely sure I agree with your conclusion. A number of liturgies contain, among other things, an increasing number of penitential prayers which increase in intensity as the actual Eucharist approaches, and I think we can say this about the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, and the Liturgy of Addai and Mari, which appear to be the two oldest liturgies extant. But these could be “accretions” because, if we look at Hippolytus, or the Euchologion of Serapion of Thmuis (which is not the oldest source of the St. Mark liturgy, that would be the Strasburg Papyri I think), we do not see this pattern clearly, but Hippolytus and the aforesaid Euchologion appear to be bishop’s service books and probably lack much of what actually happened.

But it feels to me, after having read so many of the texts, as though the ancient liturgies are repeatedly praying “Forgive us our sins” and warning the people to, if I might quote St. John the Baptist out of context “Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near” in increasing intensity until the exact moment of Eucharistic reception. I find this concept appealing but I can understand why others might find it unappealing. I would not want it to be the only stratum of the liturgy noticeable, because if one literally did a liturgy consisting of what I just described, by itself, that would be intolerable. But, without making the service wholly penitential, having a final prayer immediately before reception of the Eucharist, and other prayers before then, seems warranted by the profundity of the Eucharist itself.

My understanding is that the function of clergy at a marriage is two-fold; firstly, to witness the marriage, and secondly to pray for God's blessing upon the marriage. But the actual making of the marriage is in the freely exchanged consent of the couple, and not in anything the priest does.

(This is, as an aside, why you can't validly get married while under the influence; because that would impair your ability to consent. If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to get married; something I remind all my couples of at the rehearsal!)

Indeed, this is my understanding from a Western perspective. It was not until I learned of the Eastern theology, in which you do not get married, but rather marriage is something you request and is then done to you, that my perspective was altered.

Also as an amusing counter-aside, when an Orthodox couple are actually married, crowns are put on their heads and they drink from a shared cup of blessed but not Eucharistic wine. Not enough to impair judgement, but it amuses me in the context of your statement regarding the invalidity of marriage under the influence.

But perhaps as a precaution, next time I officiate at a wedding I should have a state trooper present to do FSTs on the couple before permitting the service to begin. ^_^

You could order A Prayer Book for Australia through St. Peter's Bookroom. If you're going to do that, buy the red one, not the green one, (which is intended for individual use by lay people and does not include the pastoral services or the ordinal).

Thank you for saving me from getting the wrong one!
 
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The Liturgist

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No, but to immediately after absolution, act as if the confession and absolution made no difference at all, seems to me to rob them of both their liturgical logic and their psychological force.



As I understand it, baptism at least is more debated. My baptism certificate has a statement on the back listing all the churches who have agreed that it is valid, and the Greek Orthodox church is among them (from memory the Greek; definitely one of the Orthodox jurisdictions).

But I do care. I absolutely care that some Christians treat other Christians as second-class Christians. It's one of the reasons I'm an Anglican, because we don't do that.



I wasn't raised going to church at all. But what I was articulating was that a sense of "we're better (or more really properly Christian) than you" is definitely something I find a barrier to any group. Not because of "hurt feelings" on my part, but because I would never wish to either treat my brothers and sisters that way, or to deny the presence and work of the Spirit in their lives.

Most Orthodox Churches would accept your baptism. Some might “conditionally re-baptize”, some might suggest but not require baptism (Copts are suspicious of non-Orthodox baptisms) and others might insist on rebaptism (Russian Old Believers, Greek and Romanian Old Calendarists).

Now, here is a fun fact for you and @prodromos to contemplate: the fourth century Church received Arians, who on this website we don’t even regard as Christians, without rebaptism. It was done for reasons of oikonomia, so that Arians would reconvert. However other heretics were required to be rebaptized. I am going to see if I can pull the canon from my Pedalion. Since what is liturgy without rubrics, and what are rubrics without canons?
 
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Paidiske

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It is simply a recognition that we are still a work in progress. We prepare as best we can to receive the Holy Eucharist, but know that we still fall very far short, which is very clear in both the precommunion prayers and the postcommunion thanksgiving prayers. IMHO only the proud would consider themselves a finished work of Christ.

Nor am I suggesting that we are finished works of Christ. I am simply critiquing some of the ways Anglican liturgy may (not must) be structured, and stating why I prefer one over the other.

How does holding fast to the teaching of the Apostles handed down through the Church, equate to treating other Christians as second-class Christians?

If you say that other Christians are not validly or adequately baptised, married, ordained; that their sacraments are not sacraments at all; if you deny the grace of God in their churches and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their worship (or, at best, refuse to affirm that grace and presence), then I don't really see how you can say you're treating them as equally Christian.
 
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Nor am I suggesting that we are finished works of Christ. I am simply critiquing some of the ways Anglican liturgy may (not must) be structured, and stating why I prefer one over the other.



If you say that other Christians are not validly or adequately baptised, married, ordained; that their sacraments are not sacraments at all; if you deny the grace of God in their churches and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their worship (or, at best, refuse to affirm that grace and presence), then I don't really see how you can say you're treating them as equally Christian.

On your last point, I think Metropolitan Kallistos Ware said that it wasn’t that the Orthodox Church rejected such sacraments, but rather that it did not know. This even included at the time he wrote it the validity of Oriental Orthodox sacraments, which now only some hardliners like Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, reject.
 
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The Liturgist

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I just opened up a rabbit hole in the form of the Pedalion; I had forgotten some of the Apostolic Canons, but on the whole find them so reasonable if understood in a non-legalistic manner, that I might post a separate thread on the ancient canons entirely.

The interesting thing about the ancient canons is that Rome only recently formally declared itself not bound by them, hence in theory I suppose a Roman priest could hit someone and not be defrocked. It seems in general since most of them attach to the Ecumenical Council they ought to have weight where not obsolete.

For example, “
CANON LVII (57)
If any Clergyman ridicules the lame, or the deaf or the blind or the
crippled, let him be excommunicated. The same applies to a layman.”

That sounds reasonable enough (excommunication being understood as temporary). So in theory it would be proper and canonical according to the most ancient traditions for someone to be refused communion for unrepentantly mocking the disabled.

But on the other hand, if they were penitent:


CANON LII (52)
If any Bishop or Priest shall refuse to welcome back anyone
returning from sin, but on the contrary, rejects him, let him be
deposed, since he grieves Christ, who said: “There is joy in heaven
over a single sinner who repents.”
 
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Till Schilling

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Yes, but my point is not that they won't bless an existing marriage, but that they consider existing marriages outside their church to be less-than. That's a position I find detestable; my marriage, or yours, or that of any other couple, is not any less a marriage for not having been conducted as an Orthodox sacrament.

So what constitutes a marriage in your view? Is everything a state or human custom calls marriage marriage? What about forced marriages or polygamous marriages? Perfectly legal and according to human custom in majority Muslim countries.

However you look at it, at one point any church will not be able to avoid declaring some "marriages" not real ones.

Side note: and that, so I believe, includes same-sex marriages.
 
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Paidiske

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So what constitutes a marriage in your view? Is everything a state or human custom calls marriage marriage? What about forced marriages or polygamous marriages? Perfectly legal and according to human custom in majority Muslim countries.

Generally speaking, the free consent of both spouses forms a marriage. So forced marriages would be invalid (as would marriage of someone too young to legally give consent). Polygamous marriages, while not being a Christian practice, are still marriages. And, as an aside, a very real and live pastoral issue in some parts of the world when people become Christian but are already in polygamous marriages.

[/QUOTE]However you look at it, at one point any church will not be able to avoid declaring some "marriages" not real ones.[/QUOTE]

This may be true, but most Christians do not declare that any marriages outside their own particular denomination are somehow less-than those inside their own denomination.
 
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Generally speaking, the free consent of both spouses forms a marriage. So forced marriages would be invalid (as would marriage of someone too young to legally give consent). Polygamous marriages, while not being a Christian practice, are still marriages. And, as an aside, a very real and live pastoral issue in some parts of the world when people become Christian but are already in polygamous marriages.

Well, we both know the early church received people in polygamous marriages, even though I can’t find a canon about it. However I did find Canon XXII of St. Basil which appears to forbid forced marriages. I say appears because much of this is based on Concords and Interpretations.

However you look at it, at one point any church will not be able to avoid declaring some "marriages" not real ones.[/QUOTE]

This may be true, but most Christians do not declare that any marriages outside their own particular denomination are somehow less-than those inside their own denomination.[/QUOTE]

I am not convinced the Orthodox as a whole believe this, and I am inclined to doubt it based on what I am reading. In fact, I would speculate that if this is a doctrine, it would be an Old Believer type of thing. Some Russian Old Believers reject marriage altogether because they believe the last real priests died in the 18th century and therefore there is no one to perform a marriage, but most do not, which is why we still see communities of priestless Old Believers in places like Woodburn Oregon. Based on the fact that even Old Believers who have no priests and no Eucharist due to the death of the last real bishop, in their opinion, was killed in the Czarist aftermath of the Nikonian schism of the 1660s , still have marriages, it seems to me to suggest that we are barking up the wrong tree.

On an unrelated note, the 18th century compiler of the Pedalion, St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite, does definitely assure us based on a much older canon that anyone who desecrates a grave in order to drive a stake through the deceased based on the “false Walachian superstition” of vampires (he uses another word), is to be excommunicated. So that’s good at least.

There are also some canon laws in here which I know are not in force. For example, there is an ancient canon law prohibiting clergy from dining in a tavern, and then there are the canons of John the Faster, which are of stinging severity, impossible for a modern priest to impose, and supposedly his penances were only half of what was customary before, which I can’t opine on since the older canons simply say “let whoever does X be excommunicated” but does not say for how long, and the canon I quoted above requiring readmission of a penitent seems to contradict John the Faster.
 
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