The Time We Live In : Gog and Magog
- Thread starter Dustoff
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Paul told the Philippians, and all Christians, to "be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."
According to your diagram, the day of Christ occurs after the rapture.
Therefore, according to your diagram, Christians will not be raptured.
In order for Christians to be both raptured and "sincere and without offence till the day of Christ", the day of the rapture and the day of Christ must be one and the same.
As we are told in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2.
I would like to see the commentary of any recognized commentator who disagrees.
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Both have occurred, with the historical apostate papacy arrogating spiritual authority in the Church as the "vicar of Christ".
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Douggg
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Gog/Magog happens in the latter days, latter years when the Jews have come out of the nations. Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16
Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, his glory among the heathen who he will just have executed judgment on in Ezekiel 39:17-20. Which will be 7 years after the destruction and burial of Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:1-16. The 7 years are in Ezekiel 39:9.
Physical proof that Gog/Magog has not happened yet is that there is no massive grave site of the burial of Gog's army in Israel.
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Douggg
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The only problem here is that you are not understanding the intent of what Paul was saying to the Philippians.
1. Paul did not know when, the day nor the hour, the rapture would take place.
2. Paul did not know whether the Day of the Lord would begin in his generation or not. He felt though that there was a possibilty it would. Which with 20/20 hindsight, the Day of the Lord beginning did not happen in their day
3. In the event that the Day of Lord would begin in the lifetime of the Philippians, Paul instructed them that they should kept preaching the gospel right up to that point, if the rapture did not happen before then to take them out of the world.
_________________________________________________________
To the Thessalonians, there were rumors going around that the Day of the Lord had begun already, and that the Thessalonians had missed the rapture or that it was not true. So Paul assured them in 2Thessalonians2 that those rumors that the Day of the Lord had begun already were not true.
And Paul gave the two pre-requirements for the beginning of the Day of the Lord.
___________________________________________________________
The Day of the Lord has not begun yet. And the rapture has not taken place yet, either.
Jesus said what Christians are to do regarding the rapture in Luke 21:34-36. And in Matthew 24:42-51.
Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews (who currently reject Jesus) who will end up going through the great tribulation. Differently, Matthew 24:15:32-51 is a message to Christians to know the season by the parable of the fig tree, and how to escape going through the great tribulation by the rapture - which Paul gave more detail on in 1Thessalonians4-5.
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Douggg
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Catholics, the popes, all believe that Jesus is the messiah. The falling away Paul was speaking about was the falling away from Christianity by many when it takes place, from believing that Jesus is the messiah.
The falling away will occur when....
1. The world saying peace and safety.
2. Gog/Magog having just taken place.
3. The prince who shall come to Israel will be perceived to be the messiah.
4. The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant speech from the temple mount.
5. The illusion that the world has entered the messianic age.
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Your entire post is rendered irrelevant by ignoring two words:
historical apostate
You've chosen instead to substitute the fantasies and fallacies of psychotic futurism.
Which renders any possibility of rational dialogue with it...
Impossible.
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Douggg
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You are waiting for something that has nothing to do with the anytime rapture view.
Neither the rapture, nor the Day of the Lord has begun yet. Do you agree with that?
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Berean Tim
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Peter was told by Jesus he would grow old and be martyred
John 21:18Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” 19(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.
Peter didn't teach an "any time rapture"
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Douggg
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You make a good point, if anyone had the insight to consider that rationale. However, we are living in the day for certain when the rapture could happen anytime, since this generation will see the events regarding the end times fulfilled.
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Leaf473
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Hi Dustoff, nice to meet you!The Time we live in: Gog and Magog
I have a few thoughts here on the times we are living in. Where I am coming from is that
we are living in the end times which started in 1948 with the return of the Jews to their land. Ezek. 37, Is. 11/ 10-16, Rom. 11 and many other passages. The countdown started in 1967 with the restoration of Jerusalem. Luke 21/24 The generation that saw that happen won't pass from the earth.
We are living in the end times and I think things are being held back right now.
It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. I think things have happened and are happening but not to the extent Jesus spoke of. Where do we see in any significant way the Matt 24 & Luke 21 etc. end-time events happening? The call to prepare went out in the 60's & 70's. Yet to my mind it doesn't seem to have done much since then.
I think there is a very good reason.
Matt. 25 parable of the 10 virgins. Vs 5 the bridegroom tarried. It clearly says (context end times) the bridegroom will delay his coming. I think we are in the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. That time began in 1982 with the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog. Ezek 38-39. That time will end with the going forth of that war and serious end time events will move forward again.
The Holding back of the war of Gog and Magog
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon mainly to root out the PLO. When they did they found mountains of Soviet military equipment stored there. Which came as a complete surprise to them. For an army of any size to travel any distance all their equipment has to be moved into place. It's a huge logistical problem. Moving the men into place is the easy part. The Russians did this without anyone in the west or Israel knowing about it.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the State of Israel reports
"During the operation `Peace for Galilee,` as the Israeli forces advanced through Lebanon in July 1982, they made an amazing discovery. Around the village of Saida, the largest secret military base in the world was uncovered. It consisted of miles of steel reinforced bunkers tunneled out of the hillside. Inside was crammed massive quantities of Soviet made arms & ammunition. It exceeded by far the highest previous intelligence estimates. I.D.F. units gathered 4170 tons (some 1,500 truckloads) of ammunition; hundreds of combat-vehicles; tanks & armored carriers; thousands of weapons, artillery & rocket launchers, plus other sophisticated devices.
These arms & stores were far in excess of P.L.O. requirements. Secret documents, & maps found in the Command Post clearly revealed that the Soviets planned invasion of the Middle East on the 4th August 1982. The I.D.F. averted this Soviet invasion by just a few weeks."
I believe we are in the time "that the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming". It began with the holding back of this war (Gog and Magog) and this time will end with this war going forward. The Gog war has to occur prior to the trib as there are 7 yrs of cleanup following it. Ezek. 39/9 While I don't believe that time (Gog war) is here yet I do believe it is on the horizon.
There are several reasons for the Ezek 38-39 war of Gog and Magog
1. To show the world that he is God he is there and that he is Israel's God
Ezek. 38/23 39/6-7
2. To destroy Russian military power. Russia has to be removed as a military power. Turkey and Iran (both regional powers involved in the war) as well. The Antichrist is going to arise into a place prepared for him. That is not entirely supernatural. Russia (along with others) have to be removed. In light of this war it's interesting in the last few yrs to see the breakdown of the good relations between Turkey and Israel. Russia building its forces and influence up again in the region and of course Iran's absolute hatred for Israel.
3. To punish Russia for its treatment of the Jews in particular and the multitudes of minorities in general. God is the judge of all the earth and he does judge the nations. One issue for judgment (among many) was the deliberate starvation by Stalin and Russia of millions of Ukrainians in 1932-33
4. The ancient God of the Hebrews is going to show himself to the entire world by supernaturally destroying the invading army. There are several reasons for that.
a. To turn Israel's attention back to their ancient God. Not savingly of course. That comes later. (Zech. 13/1) But the entire nation is going to see the supernatural hand of God on their behalf. Even the most hardened atheist will have to admit the God who called Abraham out of Babylon and spoke out of the burning bush and delivered Israel out of Egypt has shown himself. Following this war, he will have their full attention. Ezek. 39/7, 22
b. So Israel can build their third temple and re-institute the sacrifices. The world and the Muslim nations seeing the ancient God of Israel showing himself will back off and Israel will rebuild their temple. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried to do that today?
c. To clearly remind Israel (and the world) why Israel was taken out of their land /fallen by the sword and given into the hand of their enemies. It was because of their sin and uncleanness.
Ezek. 39/21-29
Vs. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done to them and hid my face from them.
d. To prepare the world for the anti-christ by turning it toward a more supernatural worldview. The entire world is going to see this supernatural judgment. Ezek.39/21-29 There are tidal waves of the occult coming especially to the western world. This war will start to prepare them for that.
Off topic but . . .I also think evolution is going to be replaced with something ancient. (pre flood) Something partly science and partly mystical.
It is this war that finishes the time of the bridegroom delaying his coming and opens the door for end-time events to begin to move forward again. Moving forward will start with the persecution Jesus spoke of in Luke 21 Mark 13, Matt. 24. Followed by the beginning of sorrows wars nuclear wars rumors of wars pestilence signs in the heavens famines earthquakes riots lawlessness on every hand sin abounding fear everywhere. That of course is just the secular world. The same issues will be in the religious world. Jesus said all this was just the beginning of sorrows. This is followed by even greater and increasing sorrows then the tribulation and the great tribulation (second half)
Following this war and rebuilding of the temple an unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred.
The persecution of the Jews is for the purpose of moving his ancient people back into their land. Without some sort of impetus, most Jews simply won't move. The reason for this of course is that one of the major end-time purposes of God is to bring his ancient people into salvation. Zech. 13/1 Rom. 11
The persecution of Christians will be so God can cleanse his church. He is going to have a church without spot or wrinkle. Before he deals with the world he has to deal with his own house. God is going to cleanse his church of sin & worldliness and set things in their proper order.
Somewhat off topic but the mainstream view that the rapture will occur and we will all be caught up and safe in heaven is shallow, to say the least. No one (including me) is going to get raptured who isn't walking a consecrated life like Enoch and faithful like Elijah. Those men are in the bible for a reason. My opinion? Thanks for asking! I believe there are several raptures and those ready will go. (pre-trib Rev. 3/10) Those not ready get to keep working on it. So there you go. I'm both pretrib and mid trib.
Ezek 37 has already happened ie: Israel restored. The Ezek. 38-39 war of Gog and Magog isn't here yet but it is coming. Its on the horizon and following it end-time events will begin to move forward again.
After the Gog war and before the start of the trib several things have to happen.
1. the anti-Christ has to arise into his power base over a reunified Europe. He has to be in power prior to the trib as it starts with the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. For him to arise from there to worldwide power a number of things have to happen.
2. America has to be removed as a military, economic and diplomatic power. I think this will happen as a result of a surprise nuclear attack by China. That has been clearly prophesied by a number of godly men going back many yrs. Plenty of info on this on the internet.
3. Prior to the trib China has to be removed as a economic and military power or like America it will just stand in the way of the anti-Christ. Again the rise of the anti-Christ is not entirely supernatural, I think this will happen as a result of a nuclear war between India and China.
So to the question that just begs to be answered "Where is America" during the Gog war?
One of America's closest allies is under attack by a Russian Arab confederacy. America has stood behind Israel all of its existence. For America to stand back as one of its biggest enemies (Russia) attacks one of its closest allies is unthinkable. So why wouldn't they help?
Here is a related question. Aside from the supernatural element of God putting a hook into Gog's mouth, (Ezek. 38/4) why would Gog even try? America has been behind every war Israel has fought but it has always been on the diplomatic & supply side. They were all regional wars so no reason for America to get involved.
The Gog war in contrast is an existential war. In other words, they are going in to wipe them out. Israel's existence is at stake here. America not getting involved in a serious way is unthinkable. With the kind of serious firepower America has at the ready in Europe and the Mediterranean Gog would just attack?
The answer to the question is that something has to happen to hold America back from helping Israel. America is the economic military diplomatic cultural leader of the world. To see it just sit back and watch is simply unthinkable. Also, Russia talks big but militarily is not even close to a match for America. Even with their Arab confederacy.
God sometimes just simply acts supernaturally and lets the pcs fall where they will but not often. Generally, when he moves in the world it's to a place prepared for it. For Russia to act against Israel with America still militarily ascendant is to my mind highly unlikely and bordering on the ludicrous.
So why would America hold back? I will list what I see as the possibilities
1. Economic judgment.
Where America simply doesn't have the money to maintain its economic and military clout. This is already happening to some extent. Many have referred to this.
2. A Judicial Malaise
God allows or sends a Spirit of Stupor over the entire nation. The nation and its leaders just don't care or can't stir themselves to care. This has happened to other nations in history. The Aztecs for eg.
3. A Judicial Hardening
Like the Pharaoh of the exodus God hardens the heart of America in preparation for its own judgment.
4. A Deep Wound
I think part of the reason America won't reach out to help Israel is that it is going to experience a deep wound in its heart. In the emotional spiritual mental cultural economic heart of America. Not the physical heartland but the inner patriotic pride and makeup of America. More than just its pride but a deep wound. Many times people who experience deep inner wounds just withdraw into themselves. Lie down and curl up into a ball. 9/11 was an example of that. Many visions by men of God about that going back many yrs.
David Wilkerson for one.
5. Francis Schaefer in his book “How Should We Then Live” examined all the various streams of life and thought that influenced modern America from the Reformation and Renaissance He looked at philosophy science art etc. His conclusion was that a dictator (right or left) would arise and take over the America. In my opinion, we saw the beginning of that in the last administration and accelerating now in the present one.
6. The nation consumed with civil war and riots and unrest and simply unable to look beyond its own borders. Actually, we're seeing the beginning of that now.
7. Catastrophic nuclear war.
As I have said that will happen but I can't see it happening prior to the Gog war.
I think it will be a combination of a number of these things. The reason political America has always stood with Israel is that there is a solid wall of support for Israel throughout America It cuts across all economic, demographic and political classes. Something the American political leadership on all sides is well aware of. Whatever is to happen it has to be something bad enough for America to be unable or unwilling to help.
Its on the horizon brothers and sisters. The time to draw close to the Lord is before the storm hits. We need to always remember that God never forsakes his people even in the midst of disaster. He never leaves anything to chance even little things and his people are not little things.
Is. 65/20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The day we live in is “The day of the Lord” Its not the day of the devil. God is going to deal with his church, his ancient people Israel and the world. One of the tools in his hand is the devil.
I read some things a while back in Ezekiel 38 and 39 that really caused me to stop and think.
Gog says he is going to attack of people who live in peace, without walls.
To me, that doesn't really describe Israel today.
It talks about horses and burning the weapons to cook over. So maybe a big shift backwards in technology?
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"Horses and burning weapons" I wondered about that as well. I think maybe he was just looking at things from a 6th Cen. B.C. perspective. I guess when it does happen all the pieces will fit properly in place.
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Berean Tim
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I believe 2nd Thessalonians teaches the rebellion and the AC sitting in the Temple comes first
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What scripture(s) prove to you that he felt there was this possibility?
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Berean Tim
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It might be that this battle(s) happen after the 1000 year period of Revelation 20. Also, those who take most of Revelation symbolically turn literal at this scripture LOL
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Consider that Christ will appear a second time to those who look for Him. Also, no man knows The Father but The Son and those to whom He reveals Him.The Time we live in: Gog and Magog
I have a few thoughts here on the times we are living in. Where I am coming from is that
we are living in the end times which started in 1948 with the return of the Jews to their land. Ezek. 37, Is. 11/ 10-16, Rom. 11 and many other passages. The countdown started in 1967 with the restoration of Jerusalem. Luke 21/24 The generation that saw that happen won't pass from the earth.
We are living in the end times and I think things are being held back right now.
It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. I think things have happened and are happening but not to the extent Jesus spoke of. Where do we see in any significant way the Matt 24 & Luke 21 etc. end-time events happening? The call to prepare went out in the 60's & 70's. Yet to my mind it doesn't seem to have done much since then.
I think there is a very good reason.
Matt. 25 parable of the 10 virgins. Vs 5 the bridegroom tarried. It clearly says (context end times) the bridegroom will delay his coming. I think we are in the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. That time began in 1982 with the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog. Ezek 38-39. That time will end with the going forth of that war and serious end time events will move forward again.
The Holding back of the war of Gog and Magog
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon mainly to root out the PLO. When they did they found mountains of Soviet military equipment stored there. Which came as a complete surprise to them. For an army of any size to travel any distance all their equipment has to be moved into place. It's a huge logistical problem. Moving the men into place is the easy part. The Russians did this without anyone in the west or Israel knowing about it.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the State of Israel reports
"During the operation `Peace for Galilee,` as the Israeli forces advanced through Lebanon in July 1982, they made an amazing discovery. Around the village of Saida, the largest secret military base in the world was uncovered. It consisted of miles of steel reinforced bunkers tunneled out of the hillside. Inside was crammed massive quantities of Soviet made arms & ammunition. It exceeded by far the highest previous intelligence estimates. I.D.F. units gathered 4170 tons (some 1,500 truckloads) of ammunition; hundreds of combat-vehicles; tanks & armored carriers; thousands of weapons, artillery & rocket launchers, plus other sophisticated devices.
These arms & stores were far in excess of P.L.O. requirements. Secret documents, & maps found in the Command Post clearly revealed that the Soviets planned invasion of the Middle East on the 4th August 1982. The I.D.F. averted this Soviet invasion by just a few weeks."
I believe we are in the time "that the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming". It began with the holding back of this war (Gog and Magog) and this time will end with this war going forward. The Gog war has to occur prior to the trib as there are 7 yrs of cleanup following it. Ezek. 39/9 While I don't believe that time (Gog war) is here yet I do believe it is on the horizon.
There are several reasons for the Ezek 38-39 war of Gog and Magog
1. To show the world that he is God he is there and that he is Israel's God
Ezek. 38/23 39/6-7
2. To destroy Russian military power. Russia has to be removed as a military power. Turkey and Iran (both regional powers involved in the war) as well. The Antichrist is going to arise into a place prepared for him. That is not entirely supernatural. Russia (along with others) have to be removed. In light of this war it's interesting in the last few yrs to see the breakdown of the good relations between Turkey and Israel. Russia building its forces and influence up again in the region and of course Iran's absolute hatred for Israel.
3. To punish Russia for its treatment of the Jews in particular and the multitudes of minorities in general. God is the judge of all the earth and he does judge the nations. One issue for judgment (among many) was the deliberate starvation by Stalin and Russia of millions of Ukrainians in 1932-33
4. The ancient God of the Hebrews is going to show himself to the entire world by supernaturally destroying the invading army. There are several reasons for that.
a. To turn Israel's attention back to their ancient God. Not savingly of course. That comes later. (Zech. 13/1) But the entire nation is going to see the supernatural hand of God on their behalf. Even the most hardened atheist will have to admit the God who called Abraham out of Babylon and spoke out of the burning bush and delivered Israel out of Egypt has shown himself. Following this war, he will have their full attention. Ezek. 39/7, 22
b. So Israel can build their third temple and re-institute the sacrifices. The world and the Muslim nations seeing the ancient God of Israel showing himself will back off and Israel will rebuild their temple. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried to do that today?
c. To clearly remind Israel (and the world) why Israel was taken out of their land /fallen by the sword and given into the hand of their enemies. It was because of their sin and uncleanness.
Ezek. 39/21-29
Vs. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done to them and hid my face from them.
d. To prepare the world for the anti-christ by turning it toward a more supernatural worldview. The entire world is going to see this supernatural judgment. Ezek.39/21-29 There are tidal waves of the occult coming especially to the western world. This war will start to prepare them for that.
Off topic but . . .I also think evolution is going to be replaced with something ancient. (pre flood) Something partly science and partly mystical.
It is this war that finishes the time of the bridegroom delaying his coming and opens the door for end-time events to begin to move forward again. Moving forward will start with the persecution Jesus spoke of in Luke 21 Mark 13, Matt. 24. Followed by the beginning of sorrows wars nuclear wars rumors of wars pestilence signs in the heavens famines earthquakes riots lawlessness on every hand sin abounding fear everywhere. That of course is just the secular world. The same issues will be in the religious world. Jesus said all this was just the beginning of sorrows. This is followed by even greater and increasing sorrows then the tribulation and the great tribulation (second half)
Following this war and rebuilding of the temple an unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred.
The persecution of the Jews is for the purpose of moving his ancient people back into their land. Without some sort of impetus, most Jews simply won't move. The reason for this of course is that one of the major end-time purposes of God is to bring his ancient people into salvation. Zech. 13/1 Rom. 11
The persecution of Christians will be so God can cleanse his church. He is going to have a church without spot or wrinkle. Before he deals with the world he has to deal with his own house. God is going to cleanse his church of sin & worldliness and set things in their proper order.
Somewhat off topic but the mainstream view that the rapture will occur and we will all be caught up and safe in heaven is shallow, to say the least. No one (including me) is going to get raptured who isn't walking a consecrated life like Enoch and faithful like Elijah. Those men are in the bible for a reason. My opinion? Thanks for asking! I believe there are several raptures and those ready will go. (pre-trib Rev. 3/10) Those not ready get to keep working on it. So there you go. I'm both pretrib and mid trib.
Ezek 37 has already happened ie: Israel restored. The Ezek. 38-39 war of Gog and Magog isn't here yet but it is coming. Its on the horizon and following it end-time events will begin to move forward again.
After the Gog war and before the start of the trib several things have to happen.
1. the anti-Christ has to arise into his power base over a reunified Europe. He has to be in power prior to the trib as it starts with the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. For him to arise from there to worldwide power a number of things have to happen.
2. America has to be removed as a military, economic and diplomatic power. I think this will happen as a result of a surprise nuclear attack by China. That has been clearly prophesied by a number of godly men going back many yrs. Plenty of info on this on the internet.
3. Prior to the trib China has to be removed as a economic and military power or like America it will just stand in the way of the anti-Christ. Again the rise of the anti-Christ is not entirely supernatural, I think this will happen as a result of a nuclear war between India and China.
So to the question that just begs to be answered "Where is America" during the Gog war?
One of America's closest allies is under attack by a Russian Arab confederacy. America has stood behind Israel all of its existence. For America to stand back as one of its biggest enemies (Russia) attacks one of its closest allies is unthinkable. So why wouldn't they help?
Here is a related question. Aside from the supernatural element of God putting a hook into Gog's mouth, (Ezek. 38/4) why would Gog even try? America has been behind every war Israel has fought but it has always been on the diplomatic & supply side. They were all regional wars so no reason for America to get involved.
The Gog war in contrast is an existential war. In other words, they are going in to wipe them out. Israel's existence is at stake here. America not getting involved in a serious way is unthinkable. With the kind of serious firepower America has at the ready in Europe and the Mediterranean Gog would just attack?
The answer to the question is that something has to happen to hold America back from helping Israel. America is the economic military diplomatic cultural leader of the world. To see it just sit back and watch is simply unthinkable. Also, Russia talks big but militarily is not even close to a match for America. Even with their Arab confederacy.
God sometimes just simply acts supernaturally and lets the pcs fall where they will but not often. Generally, when he moves in the world it's to a place prepared for it. For Russia to act against Israel with America still militarily ascendant is to my mind highly unlikely and bordering on the ludicrous.
So why would America hold back? I will list what I see as the possibilities
1. Economic judgment.
Where America simply doesn't have the money to maintain its economic and military clout. This is already happening to some extent. Many have referred to this.
2. A Judicial Malaise
God allows or sends a Spirit of Stupor over the entire nation. The nation and its leaders just don't care or can't stir themselves to care. This has happened to other nations in history. The Aztecs for eg.
3. A Judicial Hardening
Like the Pharaoh of the exodus God hardens the heart of America in preparation for its own judgment.
4. A Deep Wound
I think part of the reason America won't reach out to help Israel is that it is going to experience a deep wound in its heart. In the emotional spiritual mental cultural economic heart of America. Not the physical heartland but the inner patriotic pride and makeup of America. More than just its pride but a deep wound. Many times people who experience deep inner wounds just withdraw into themselves. Lie down and curl up into a ball. 9/11 was an example of that. Many visions by men of God about that going back many yrs.
David Wilkerson for one.
5. Francis Schaefer in his book “How Should We Then Live” examined all the various streams of life and thought that influenced modern America from the Reformation and Renaissance He looked at philosophy science art etc. His conclusion was that a dictator (right or left) would arise and take over the America. In my opinion, we saw the beginning of that in the last administration and accelerating now in the present one.
6. The nation consumed with civil war and riots and unrest and simply unable to look beyond its own borders. Actually, we're seeing the beginning of that now.
7. Catastrophic nuclear war.
As I have said that will happen but I can't see it happening prior to the Gog war.
I think it will be a combination of a number of these things. The reason political America has always stood with Israel is that there is a solid wall of support for Israel throughout America It cuts across all economic, demographic and political classes. Something the American political leadership on all sides is well aware of. Whatever is to happen it has to be something bad enough for America to be unable or unwilling to help.
Its on the horizon brothers and sisters. The time to draw close to the Lord is before the storm hits. We need to always remember that God never forsakes his people even in the midst of disaster. He never leaves anything to chance even little things and his people are not little things.
Is. 65/20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The day we live in is “The day of the Lord” Its not the day of the devil. God is going to deal with his church, his ancient people Israel and the world. One of the tools in his hand is the devil.
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keras
Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
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Gog will attack the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, all of the Lord's faithful Christian peoples, living in all of the holy land.
JOEL 2:18-27 The Lord is with us – who can be against us?
Joel 2:18-17 Then the Lord showed His ardent love for His Land and had compassion for His people.
[The Land cleansed and His people gathered and settled in it. Ezekiel 20:34-36]
He answered their appeal and said; I will send you plenty of food. You will no longer suffer the reproach of other nations. [As in verses 22-26]
Joel 2:20 I shall remove the Northern peril far from you and banish them into the desert. The vanguard will go into the Dead Sea and the rearguard will go into the Mediterranean Sea. The rotting smell of the dead army will rise up.
Very interesting! Ezekiel 38:14-16 says that a mighty army from the North [Gog and Magog] will attack My people, when they are settled and undisturbed. So that the nations may know Me and prove My holiness.
Joel 2:21-27 Earth, fear not, the Lord has done great things.
Fear not, you beasts in the field, the grass will be green. The trees and vines will bear their fruit.
People of Zion rejoice, be glad in the Lord. He gives you rain and crops in
due season. You will have food in plenty. I shall recompense you for the years of drought and famine. My people will never again be put to shame. You will know that I am with you, in the Land and that I am the Lord your God.
This passage is a clear sequence of events, as it starts with- Then the Lord.. and then verse 28 starts- After this.....
Both the verses in Joel 2:27 and Ezekiel 38:16, also Jeremiah 50:4 Hosea 14:7, Jeremiah 29:13-14, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 20:42 show that Jesus is not actually present in the Land, as He will be during the Millennium. His glorious Return will prove His presence and glory to all the peoples of the earth, so these events are before then. God will be present in the same way as He was with ancient Israel.
So, the complete sequence of events as I figure it from Bible prophecy is:
1. The Mid east nuclear war, started by Iran and all the Islamic enemies of Israel, but God will intervene at the last minute, with a C.M.E. which will depopulate the entire Middle East region [Isaiah 30:25-30, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5] excepting for a small Jewish remnant left in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13
2. After a short period of time, God will arrange for the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and the faithful; Gentiles, all the born again Christian people, to assemble on the hills of Samaria. [Amos 3:9]
3. There, He will confront and judge them. The righteous will go to live in the Land, but the ones judged unrighteous will not enter. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 20:38, Romans 9:24-26
4. His people, every faithful Christian, will settle and become prosperous in a blessed Land. Jeremiah 16:14-16, Amos 9:13-15, Psalms 37:29
5. After a few years, a Northern confederation [Gog’s army] will attack them, but will be destroyed by God. [Ezekiel 38:21-22]
6. Because of this defeat and difficult economic conditions, the rest of the world will accept a One World government led by a strong leader. [Daniel 8:23-26]
7. He will sign a 7 year peace treaty with God’s people, which will mark the commencement of the 70th week spoken of by Daniel. The Tribulation commences after3½ years. [Dan 9:27]
8. The Lord Jesus will Return and destroy the army of the nations commanded by the Anti- Christ and will then reign in Israel for 1000 years. [Rev. 19:11-21]
9. At the end of that time, a resurgent Gog’s army will again attack Israel. They are totally burned up and then will be Gods Great white Throne judgements on all people and angels.
Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.
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claninja
Well-Known Member
The Time we live in: Gog and Magog
I have a few thoughts here on the times we are living in. Where I am coming from is that
we are living in the end times which started in 1948 with the return of the Jews to their land. Ezek. 37, Is. 11/ 10-16, Rom. 11 and many other passages. The countdown started in 1967 with the restoration of Jerusalem. Luke 21/24 The generation that saw that happen won't pass from the earth.
We are living in the end times and I think things are being held back right now.
It seems to me that so many years have passed without anything really significant happening. I think things have happened and are happening but not to the extent Jesus spoke of. Where do we see in any significant way the Matt 24 & Luke 21 etc. end-time events happening? The call to prepare went out in the 60's & 70's. Yet to my mind it doesn't seem to have done much since then.
I think there is a very good reason.
Matt. 25 parable of the 10 virgins. Vs 5 the bridegroom tarried. It clearly says (context end times) the bridegroom will delay his coming. I think we are in the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. That time began in 1982 with the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog. Ezek 38-39. That time will end with the going forth of that war and serious end time events will move forward again.
The Holding back of the war of Gog and Magog
In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon mainly to root out the PLO. When they did they found mountains of Soviet military equipment stored there. Which came as a complete surprise to them. For an army of any size to travel any distance all their equipment has to be moved into place. It's a huge logistical problem. Moving the men into place is the easy part. The Russians did this without anyone in the west or Israel knowing about it.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the State of Israel reports
"During the operation `Peace for Galilee,` as the Israeli forces advanced through Lebanon in July 1982, they made an amazing discovery. Around the village of Saida, the largest secret military base in the world was uncovered. It consisted of miles of steel reinforced bunkers tunneled out of the hillside. Inside was crammed massive quantities of Soviet made arms & ammunition. It exceeded by far the highest previous intelligence estimates. I.D.F. units gathered 4170 tons (some 1,500 truckloads) of ammunition; hundreds of combat-vehicles; tanks & armored carriers; thousands of weapons, artillery & rocket launchers, plus other sophisticated devices.
These arms & stores were far in excess of P.L.O. requirements. Secret documents, & maps found in the Command Post clearly revealed that the Soviets planned invasion of the Middle East on the 4th August 1982. The I.D.F. averted this Soviet invasion by just a few weeks."
I believe we are in the time "that the bridegroom has tarried and delayed his coming". It began with the holding back of this war (Gog and Magog) and this time will end with this war going forward. The Gog war has to occur prior to the trib as there are 7 yrs of cleanup following it. Ezek. 39/9 While I don't believe that time (Gog war) is here yet I do believe it is on the horizon.
There are several reasons for the Ezek 38-39 war of Gog and Magog
1. To show the world that he is God he is there and that he is Israel's God
Ezek. 38/23 39/6-7
2. To destroy Russian military power. Russia has to be removed as a military power. Turkey and Iran (both regional powers involved in the war) as well. The Antichrist is going to arise into a place prepared for him. That is not entirely supernatural. Russia (along with others) have to be removed. In light of this war it's interesting in the last few yrs to see the breakdown of the good relations between Turkey and Israel. Russia building its forces and influence up again in the region and of course Iran's absolute hatred for Israel.
3. To punish Russia for its treatment of the Jews in particular and the multitudes of minorities in general. God is the judge of all the earth and he does judge the nations. One issue for judgment (among many) was the deliberate starvation by Stalin and Russia of millions of Ukrainians in 1932-33
4. The ancient God of the Hebrews is going to show himself to the entire world by supernaturally destroying the invading army. There are several reasons for that.
a. To turn Israel's attention back to their ancient God. Not savingly of course. That comes later. (Zech. 13/1) But the entire nation is going to see the supernatural hand of God on their behalf. Even the most hardened atheist will have to admit the God who called Abraham out of Babylon and spoke out of the burning bush and delivered Israel out of Egypt has shown himself. Following this war, he will have their full attention. Ezek. 39/7, 22
b. So Israel can build their third temple and re-institute the sacrifices. The world and the Muslim nations seeing the ancient God of Israel showing himself will back off and Israel will rebuild their temple. Can you imagine the uproar if they tried to do that today?
c. To clearly remind Israel (and the world) why Israel was taken out of their land /fallen by the sword and given into the hand of their enemies. It was because of their sin and uncleanness.
Ezek. 39/21-29
Vs. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done to them and hid my face from them.
d. To prepare the world for the anti-christ by turning it toward a more supernatural worldview. The entire world is going to see this supernatural judgment. Ezek.39/21-29 There are tidal waves of the occult coming especially to the western world. This war will start to prepare them for that.
Off topic but . . .I also think evolution is going to be replaced with something ancient. (pre flood) Something partly science and partly mystical.
It is this war that finishes the time of the bridegroom delaying his coming and opens the door for end-time events to begin to move forward again. Moving forward will start with the persecution Jesus spoke of in Luke 21 Mark 13, Matt. 24. Followed by the beginning of sorrows wars nuclear wars rumors of wars pestilence signs in the heavens famines earthquakes riots lawlessness on every hand sin abounding fear everywhere. That of course is just the secular world. The same issues will be in the religious world. Jesus said all this was just the beginning of sorrows. This is followed by even greater and increasing sorrows then the tribulation and the great tribulation (second half)
Following this war and rebuilding of the temple an unreasoning resentment toward Jews and Christians will begin. Eventually culminating in an implacable hatred.
The persecution of the Jews is for the purpose of moving his ancient people back into their land. Without some sort of impetus, most Jews simply won't move. The reason for this of course is that one of the major end-time purposes of God is to bring his ancient people into salvation. Zech. 13/1 Rom. 11
The persecution of Christians will be so God can cleanse his church. He is going to have a church without spot or wrinkle. Before he deals with the world he has to deal with his own house. God is going to cleanse his church of sin & worldliness and set things in their proper order.
Somewhat off topic but the mainstream view that the rapture will occur and we will all be caught up and safe in heaven is shallow, to say the least. No one (including me) is going to get raptured who isn't walking a consecrated life like Enoch and faithful like Elijah. Those men are in the bible for a reason. My opinion? Thanks for asking! I believe there are several raptures and those ready will go. (pre-trib Rev. 3/10) Those not ready get to keep working on it. So there you go. I'm both pretrib and mid trib.
Ezek 37 has already happened ie: Israel restored. The Ezek. 38-39 war of Gog and Magog isn't here yet but it is coming. Its on the horizon and following it end-time events will begin to move forward again.
After the Gog war and before the start of the trib several things have to happen.
1. the anti-Christ has to arise into his power base over a reunified Europe. He has to be in power prior to the trib as it starts with the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. For him to arise from there to worldwide power a number of things have to happen.
2. America has to be removed as a military, economic and diplomatic power. I think this will happen as a result of a surprise nuclear attack by China. That has been clearly prophesied by a number of godly men going back many yrs. Plenty of info on this on the internet.
3. Prior to the trib China has to be removed as a economic and military power or like America it will just stand in the way of the anti-Christ. Again the rise of the anti-Christ is not entirely supernatural, I think this will happen as a result of a nuclear war between India and China.
So to the question that just begs to be answered "Where is America" during the Gog war?
One of America's closest allies is under attack by a Russian Arab confederacy. America has stood behind Israel all of its existence. For America to stand back as one of its biggest enemies (Russia) attacks one of its closest allies is unthinkable. So why wouldn't they help?
Here is a related question. Aside from the supernatural element of God putting a hook into Gog's mouth, (Ezek. 38/4) why would Gog even try? America has been behind every war Israel has fought but it has always been on the diplomatic & supply side. They were all regional wars so no reason for America to get involved.
The Gog war in contrast is an existential war. In other words, they are going in to wipe them out. Israel's existence is at stake here. America not getting involved in a serious way is unthinkable. With the kind of serious firepower America has at the ready in Europe and the Mediterranean Gog would just attack?
The answer to the question is that something has to happen to hold America back from helping Israel. America is the economic military diplomatic cultural leader of the world. To see it just sit back and watch is simply unthinkable. Also, Russia talks big but militarily is not even close to a match for America. Even with their Arab confederacy.
God sometimes just simply acts supernaturally and lets the pcs fall where they will but not often. Generally, when he moves in the world it's to a place prepared for it. For Russia to act against Israel with America still militarily ascendant is to my mind highly unlikely and bordering on the ludicrous.
So why would America hold back? I will list what I see as the possibilities
1. Economic judgment.
Where America simply doesn't have the money to maintain its economic and military clout. This is already happening to some extent. Many have referred to this.
2. A Judicial Malaise
God allows or sends a Spirit of Stupor over the entire nation. The nation and its leaders just don't care or can't stir themselves to care. This has happened to other nations in history. The Aztecs for eg.
3. A Judicial Hardening
Like the Pharaoh of the exodus God hardens the heart of America in preparation for its own judgment.
4. A Deep Wound
I think part of the reason America won't reach out to help Israel is that it is going to experience a deep wound in its heart. In the emotional spiritual mental cultural economic heart of America. Not the physical heartland but the inner patriotic pride and makeup of America. More than just its pride but a deep wound. Many times people who experience deep inner wounds just withdraw into themselves. Lie down and curl up into a ball. 9/11 was an example of that. Many visions by men of God about that going back many yrs.
David Wilkerson for one.
5. Francis Schaefer in his book “How Should We Then Live” examined all the various streams of life and thought that influenced modern America from the Reformation and Renaissance He looked at philosophy science art etc. His conclusion was that a dictator (right or left) would arise and take over the America. In my opinion, we saw the beginning of that in the last administration and accelerating now in the present one.
6. The nation consumed with civil war and riots and unrest and simply unable to look beyond its own borders. Actually, we're seeing the beginning of that now.
7. Catastrophic nuclear war.
As I have said that will happen but I can't see it happening prior to the Gog war.
I think it will be a combination of a number of these things. The reason political America has always stood with Israel is that there is a solid wall of support for Israel throughout America It cuts across all economic, demographic and political classes. Something the American political leadership on all sides is well aware of. Whatever is to happen it has to be something bad enough for America to be unable or unwilling to help.
Its on the horizon brothers and sisters. The time to draw close to the Lord is before the storm hits. We need to always remember that God never forsakes his people even in the midst of disaster. He never leaves anything to chance even little things and his people are not little things.
Is. 65/20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The day we live in is “The day of the Lord” Its not the day of the devil. God is going to deal with his church, his ancient people Israel and the world. One of the tools in his hand is the devil.
the end times began at Jesus’ 1st advent, according to scripture. The end times beginning in 1948 would be a personal interpretation.
for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:26 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:26 - English Standard Version
But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:16-17 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 2:16-17 - English Standard Version
Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:11 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10:11 - English Standard Version
Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:18 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2:18 - English Standard Version
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