Belief is not a choice

Blindwatchmaker said:

It seems to me that a central principle of Christianity is that those who choose to accept Christ as their personal saviour gain access to Heaven whilst those that choose not to are punished or lose out in some way once their lives are over.

But this is based on a notion of belief which we now know to be false.
Believing a proposition is not a choice you make.
It's something that happens to you, not by you.

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Okay. There's a great deal of Christian theology that supports this point you are raising.

With this in mind, it seems unreasonable for God to punish people who are simply not convinced of the claims of Christianity.

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How do we go about judging what's "unreasonable" about God?

Then too, if anything unpleasant happens to somebody, are we supposed to think it was God's fault? How would that idea make sense?

Blindwatchmaker said:

lol ok.
Let's put our guns away and stop seeing who can pee higher up the wall.
We've clearly both read a few books.

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I never drew any guns. In fact, I'm against guns (for the most part). I am thoroughly pro-Gamma Rays, though!

Christianity in almost all its forms makes claims about the origin, purpose and moral rules of the universe. If those are not huge claims then nothing is a huge claim.

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Sure. But I'm going to go with Kierkegaard in thinking that those claims are fairly tenuous and limited, but in the vain of what Laura Robinson might say they are ...

It remains the case (no matter how inconvenient) that our beliefs are primarily formed as consequences of cognitive processes over which we have little or no control (any such control would also be such a cognitive process.)

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Yeah. Various philosophers might have something to say about that, as well as about the "deepities" of one's epistemic assumptions in science and the nature of the scientific method(s).

Neural correlates of believing - PubMed

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The Neural Correlates of Religious and Nonreligious Belief

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Thanks for this! This kind of stuff looks somewhat familiar, although I'll admit I'm no expert on it.

Any deity who punished people for inevitable cognitive processes would be nothing more than an evil bully and yet most Christians claim that God is just and loving.

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That'll depend on all those things that you'll have to establish beyond your brief assertions (and two citations) here.

Blindwatchmaker said:

Thank you so much, Chet.
Personally, I think that all the people who believe in aliens are mistaken as I don't think any of the evidence presented for aliens is convincing.
But the point is that those people DO find it convincing. So they have no choice but to believe. If they were better educated and able to be more discerning in how they assess evidence and anecdote, then many of them would realise the evidence for aliens is weak to non-existent, and at that point, they would no longer be convinced.
If that happened, their non-belief would also not be a choice.
That's typically what happens with belief in Santa. Children start off believing (as their parents and other trusted adults have told them the lie). Then when they get older, they are able to realise how implausible Santa is and at the point, their lack of belief is not a choice but something that happens to them.

An all-knowing God would know IN ADVANCE what evidence would convince any given person and so even before I was born (for example) God would know that someone would not be convinced by stories of his existence. It therefore seems immoral to punish that person for lack of belief.

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Just because God knows something in advance doesn't mean it's predestined. For example, in 1 Samuel 23 young David is in trouble and asks God for a prophecy. He receives it, doesn't like it, and takes actions that negate it. So God sees multiple futures, not just the one that eventually happens.

Perhaps you've been exposed to Calvinism, where God predetermines everything. But most denominations aren't Calvinistic. And I'm not.

When I read the scriptures I see free will presented as a given. For example, the dire warnings of some of the prophets are regarding consequences for sinning such as "you're going to be invaded by foreigners because you worshipped other gods". It's a given that we'll sin, and both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures make allowances for that, but it's not a given that we have to worship other gods.

Believe it or not, God is actually eager to spend eternity with us, enjoying our company. I still have trouble wrapping my head around that. We live in an age where "Everyone who calls upon the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21). And "Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16). If you're having trouble believing you can ask God for faith. He'll come through.

Blindwatchmaker said:

With respect, I think you're muddying the water and making this unnecessarily complicated.

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Oh, I understand. I get that biased claim a lot. But just maybe think of it as the result of being educated in another school of thought(s).

I haven't appealed to deepities or made any extravagant claims beyond our current best understanding of neuroscience.

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I would very much agree that I haven't seen you make any extravagant claims, but we'd have to factor into your own position the why's and how's of vetting out the nature of scientific claims and, even when we have valid results from a valid scientific study, discern fully what it tells us about anything that could definitively impinge upon the field of Epistemology wholesale. I don't think Neuroscience does, and you can tell that to Sam Harris or Pinecreek, take your pick.

If you DON'T believe that those who reject Jesus as saviour are punished, then I have no issue with your beliefs on the subject.
But it is a common theme in Christianity.

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Oh, I didn't say that I don't believe folks aren't punished. It's just that my own Annihilationist type view on the matter isn't something that I'm allowed to elaborate upon here at CF.

Blindwatchmaker said:

We are human beings and our minds are able to make judgements on ethical issues.

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How so? Are there no standards by which to make such judgments? Well, yes there are.

And that is where religion comes in. OR, if one has no religion, something else determines the judgment. But it is not logical to expect that the person who has a religious guideline in mind must acquiesce to the judgment made by another person who follows strictly societal, secular, or other non-religious standards.

It's possible that God is perfectly fine with behaviour that you or I deem to be unethical (for example conquering the Midianites and then killing and raping the survivors).

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The question may be asked, that's true. But you inquired about Christianity's perspective. Christians consider the Bible to be the ultimate word on this matter. You do not, but Christians do.

So that is what they will refer to for an answer. If you do not agree with that answer, it doesn't make the Christians unreasonable.

I don't know about fault but certainly, everything that happens MUST be according to God's will and part of his plan if he is indeed all-powerful, as if he wanted anything to be different, it would be (if not, then he is not all-powerful.)

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Very well, and he judges wrongdoing to be unworthy of Him. Therefore, anyone who refuses God, earns the future that even you (I should think) would consider appropriate. Is God unethical, for example, if he allowed Hitler to "dig his own grave" in eternity, as it were?

Belief in Christianity is like belief in daily life. The Bible presents evidence that, for example Jesus is the promised Messiah. If a person examines the accounts given in the Bible for this (that Jesus is the promised Messiah) then like any other believing of evidence presented at a trial (etc.) a person either believes the evidence or not.

Kenny'sID said:

Accepting a proposition IS a choice. And that is what we have to do with the proposition. Making your comment there faulty

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When you believe a proposition, you do because you have become convinced for some reason. It is not a choice.

Is there any proposition that you believe to be true that you can choose not to believe?

Blindwatchmaker said:

What might help to clarify thinking on my central claim here (that we don't choose our beliefs) is that people see choices of action around our beliefs and conflate that with the beliefs themselves.
For example, I can choose to behave in a pious way, or in a self-indulgent, selfish way.
I am free to choose whether or not to pray, go to church or sleep around.
But these actions are not the beliefs themselves. They are choices made after the beliefs form or don't form.
Again, if you think you can choose your beliefs, then choose now to believe that I have a three-headed dog.
You probably wont be able to no matter how hard you try.

But if I DO have one and introduce him, then your sudden belief in that will not be a matter of choice.

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I hate to say it, and I know you're doing your best to show us our Christian pitfalls in critical thinking, but what you've shared in this one post above doesn't clarifty for me what your central claim is.

Maybe just say something like: You Christians are often immoral hypocrites, and when you don't do what Jesus told you to do, your lack of adherence causes confusion for the rest of non-Christians.

Or am I not intuiting here well enough the semantics conveyed in your use of "around" ... ?

Non Christians can be saved but for us to say a person does not need Jesus Christ as savior is false preaching. This may sound contradictory but if we take as many factors as we can when considering the Lord’s commandments ( Matthew 19:16:19, Romans 13:8-10), the golden rule ( Matthew 7:12, Matthew 7:1-12) etc. etc. As Christians we are saved by grace & we are to reciprocate with good works to love God & neighbor ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We also must remember with God all is possible ( Matthew 19:26).

I think a good example of the dilemma of a non believer is given by Ezekiel in Ezekiel 33:11-20 ( also Ezekiel 18:4-9) Obviously no one is automatically doomed but a Christian cannot tell a non Christian they will be saved because this is the judgment of God.

The Lord ultimately says the good will be saved & the bad doomed with no definitive distinctions ( see John 5:22-30). St. Paul addresses a judgment that is the Lord’s & we should not deny but also not give false assurance of His mercy to anyone ( see Romans 2).

Lastly we are not to assume or lord salvation over anyone ( for ex. Colossians 1:10-23).

Clizby WampusCat said:

When you believe a proposition, you do because you have become convinced for some reason. It is not a choice.

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These comments of yours make little or no sense. Lol Give me an example of one of those propositions. There is always a choice...Did you choose to become saved because there was no choice? No, you did not, you made another choice, a choice not to.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Is there any proposition that you believe to be true that you can choose not to believe?

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What? What kind of oddball question is that? Any propsition is true, and yes, if I wanted to, I could probably think of several thousand, all of them with a legit choice.

Kenny'sID said:

These comments of yours make little or no sense. Lol Give me an example of one of those propositions. There is always a choice...Did you choose to become saved because there was no choice? No, you did not, you made another choice, a choice not to.

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I am talking about if something is true of not true. Not what preference we may have. I made a choice to be saved, I did not make a choice to believe the gospel was true. I was convinced by evidence.

What? What kind of oddball question is that? Any propsition is true, and yes, if I wanted to, I could probably think of several thousand, all of them with a legit choice.

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Again, I am not talking about a preference like where to eat tonight. I am talking about what you believe to be true. Belief is not a choice.

Can you believe that the earth has two moons?

Clizby WampusCat said:

I did not make a choice to believe the gospel was true.

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Then you made a choice to belive it was untrue.

You made a choice because there was a choice...period.

Blindwatchmaker said:

It's interesting to me that you really don't get this.
The way our brains work is that information is processed in the
temporal and parietal areas of the brain and this information is then synthesised into the experience we call belief or non belief.
There is no choice involved.
You can choose how to ACT on the belief of course (perhaps that's the source of the confusion).
But the belief or non belief simply depend on whether the evidence happens to convince you or not.

If you doubt this, try believing in fairies.

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I get it, and I was hoping to help you do the same.

Your claim does not hold water.