The Minimum Wage Tradeoff

Ken-1122 said:

My entire argument is based on the idea that today more than anytime in history, you have the opportunity to acquire, or lose wealth.

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And that's one reason why your argument fails. Socioeconomic mobility has been flat or declining in the US for decades (there are some differences in mobility between regions and socioeconomic groups).

Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia.
Long-term decline in intergenerational mobility in the United States since the 1850s
https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf

iluvatar5150 said:

And that's one reason why your argument fails. Socioeconomic mobility has been flat or declining in the US for decades (there are some differences in mobility between regions and socioeconomic groups).

Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia.
Long-term decline in intergenerational mobility in the United States since the 1850s
https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf

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From your second cite -

We find substantial declines in social mobility over the past 165 y. However, contrary to public perception, most of the decline happened to Americans born prior to 1900, rather than more recently, and was largely driven by the movement of children from farm to manufacturing sectors during industrialization.

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Certainly it was easier to move from the farm to a city, get a job, and make a lot more than you did as a farm hand, but now that's going to be more difficult because farming is so much more industrialized.

The Great Migration led to a heck of a lot of upward social mobility by African-Americans fifty years ago too. But it had little to do with minimum wage laws. And overall, you are not likely to get more social mobility with an increase in MW, because the increased earnings of those who get a raise is offset to a variable extent by those who are unemployed. And by the fact that a higher MW means it is harder to get an entry level job. You would have to be able to generate more than $15 an hour in revenue for your employer right from the outset, rather than $7.25 or whatever MW is in your state.

Jordan Peterson has done research on IQ. Specifically, IQ as it relates to being employed in the military. And he says that the military found that, if your IQ is below (IIRC) 83, there is no job in the military that you can do successfully enough to make it worthwhile to keep you in the military. Taking the military as a rough equivalent to the US economy as a whole, that indicates that people with a sub-83 IQ are probably not going to be able to produce enough to make it worthwhile to hire them for $15 an hour. About 10% of the population has an IQ below 85. Raising the minimum wage hurts them, because perhaps some of them could generate more than $7.65 an hour, and rather few would be able to be worth $15 an hour.

Regards,
Shodan

loveofourlord said:

it's not a ladder, it's pyramid, there are far less good jobs then there are people looking for them

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actually surprisingly level -- over 1/3rd of all US households earn $100K per year more
• U.S. income distribution 2019 | Statista

Ringo84 said:

Free for everyone

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Including the professors -- you expect them all to volunteer for free?

98cwitr said:

All this will do is pave the incentives for automation. I welcome it, but as a supporter of small, local businesses, and a boycotter of Walmart, this "corporate appeal" is selling our country out, devaluing the dollar, and shipping jobs out of the US. One of the biggest reasons Trump won in 2016 was to get jobs back here state side. He did that and as a result we had the lowest unemployment numbers in history.

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best job security for those who supply Labor is demand for Labor

Ringo84 said:

If it is the case that they out-earn the trades by millions (this may not be true in all cases), then it seems economically feasible to me to pay for people's education

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If your education is a profitable investment (a little today earns you a lot tomorrow and for the rest of your life) then the Financial Sector is already set up for precisely that (borrow that little today and pay it back tomorrow as you start the rest of your life after that)

Ringo84 said:

If it is the case that they outearn the trades by millions (this may not be true in all cases), then it seems economically feasible to me to pay for people's education.
Ringo

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They out earn high school grads by a $million. I'm sure that certain trades provide these high earnings as well. We do pay for school through high school. Sadly high school is mostly preparation for college, offering very few 'trades' courses. Many have no intention of furthering their education beyond high school. Should they receive a stipend to kick-start their careers? After all they are ones that are a drag wage wise.

Ringo84 said:

I'd think that non selfish people would be thrilled to see younger people not have to struggle the same way they did.

To say that we have to keep the newer generations in debt for the rest of their lives because it'd be "unfair" to others is like saying that we have to stay in forever war in the Middle East because it'd be "unfair" to the soldiers that had alreayd died.
Ringo

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As long as the money comes from the colleges, and from previous college grads I'd have no problem with it. But to make non-college people pay for someone else's college isn't right, especially if that person goes on to out earn the non-college person. College is a huge clique. We should keep it that way.

Nithavela said:

Seems like the fault is with McDonalds not applying according raises to their higher-than-minimum-wages payed workforce. A smart move to foster hate against higher minimum wages, I have to admit.

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It looks like McD's pays more than the minimum wage. Also franchise's have some discretion in wages depending upon local job markets.

McDonald's salaries in Lake Forest, CA: How much does McDonald's pay? | Indeed.com

I think McD's is a great place to start a working career for those not intending to further their education.

Erik Nelson said:

Including the professors -- you expect them all to volunteer for free?

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Who said anything about professors not getting paid?

Professors aren't the ones getting in hock up to their eyebrows to pay for education.

If your education is a profitable investment (a little today earns you a lot tomorrow and for the rest of your life) then the Financial Sector is already set up for precisely that (borrow that little today and pay it back tomorrow as you start the rest of your life after that)

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That's just the thing: education shouldn't be seen as a "profitable investment", but as learning for the sake of learning.
Ringo

OldWiseGuy said:

Should they receive a stipend to kick-start their careers? After all they are ones that are a drag wage wise.

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Probably.

As long as the money comes from the colleges, and from previous college grads I'd have no problem with it. But to make non-college people pay for someone else's college isn't right, especially if that person goes on to out earn the non-college person. College is a huge clique. We should keep it that way.

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I wouldn't say it's an issue of "paying for someone else's" college so much as making college education free.
Ringo

Erik Nelson said:

actually surprisingly level -- over 1/3rd of all US households earn $100K per year more
• U.S. income distribution 2019 | Statista

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A) Thats still 2/3rds that don't B) How many jobs and people in those families are working jobs?

Reminds me of the idiocy of conservatives whining about woman working and not taking care of the kids and then promoting ideas that force woman to work just to have a home.

iluvatar5150 said:

And that's one reason why your argument fails. Socioeconomic mobility has been flat or declining in the US for decades (there are some differences in mobility between regions and socioeconomic groups).

Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia.
Long-term decline in intergenerational mobility in the United States since the 1850s
https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/SOTU_2015_economic-mobility.pdf

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This study lacks anecdotes.

loveofourlord said:

A) Thats still 2/3rds that don't B) How many jobs and people in those families are working jobs?

Reminds me of the idiocy of conservatives whining about woman working and not taking care of the kids and then promoting ideas that force woman to work just to have a home.

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Oh and could be reading it wrong, but the link below seems to suggest that doesn't include single people, just families, so your counting out a lot of the people.

Household Income Definition.

Ringo84 said:

Probably.



I wouldn't say it's an issue of "paying for someone else's" college so much as making college education free.
Ringo

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Most taxpayers haven't gone to college, and won't benefit much economically from those who do. It is also worthy of note that most who go to college either,

Flunk out,
Drop out,
or,
Find employment in a field that doesn't require a college education,
or
Find employment in a field outside of their major, for which they must receive training.
or
They start a business that doesn't require a college education.

Erik Nelson said:

Including the professors -- you expect them all to volunteer for free?



best job security for those who supply Labor is demand for Labor



If your education is a profitable investment (a little today earns you a lot tomorrow and for the rest of your life) then the Financial Sector is already set up for precisely that (borrow that little today and pay it back tomorrow as you start the rest of your life after that)

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The profitable investment is in the government having educated people in the workforce, and not having to get people from other countries to fill the jobs the American education system isn't producing.

I've had the idea of education being free at higher levels but if you don't graduate you have to pay back the education or least some of it. Getting a education shouldn't be for the rich, or make you owe money for decades. Many countries get this.

OldWiseGuy said:

Most taxpayers haven't gone to college, and won't benefit much economically from those who do.

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How many would go to college if doing so didn't leave you with debt for decades.

Also higher education tends to corelate with better jobs and more money wich is the entire topic here.

loveofourlord said:

How many would go to college if doing so didn't leave you with debt for decades.

Also higher education tends to corelate with better jobs and more money wich is the entire topic here.

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The topic is the minimum wage.

loveofourlord said:

How many would go to college if doing so didn't leave you with debt for decades.

Also higher education tends to corelate with better jobs and more money wich is the entire topic here.

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supply and demand

if the supply of college graduates increased significantly (and suddenly)... where would you get the corresponding significant (and sudden) increase in demand (=jobs) waiting for those new grads?

as is, your proposal would flood the upper end of the job market with way more job seekers than available jobs

would result in massive unemployment on top of huge debt

loveofourlord said:

The profitable investment is in the government having educated people in the workforce, and not having to get people from other countries to fill the jobs the American education system isn't producing

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Have you ever been at an American university?

That's N.O.T. why American universities (and companies) prefer foreign college students & grad students (and workers) over Americans (of whom there are plenty).

One guess as to what the bottom line really is?

loveofourlord said:

How many would go to college if doing so didn't leave you with debt for decades.

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Average college debt is about that of the cost of the average new car.

How many would enroll in college if not for student loans, which is the 'rat in the woodpile' (with apologies to the rats).

OldWiseGuy said:

The topic is the minimum wage.

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And having a education is part of getting off of minimum wage, AND getting off minimum wage enough to where they can have a living wage, wich is what the 15$ raise is all about. it's about, "This is the minimum the average American needs to live without welfare and such." You can't talk about wages, without talking about what goes into them. Climbing up the ladder isn't just, "I've been working at Walmart for 30 years." it's what kind of education they have for better positions and such, or a better job.

loveofourlord said:

That's still 2/3rds that don't

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What do you expect?

More than half of Americans to be above American average ?

The US economy is not some sort of "steeply tapering pyramid" with one good job and everyone else starving in chains.

Who said it's Star Trek? But it's not the worst ever either.