A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)

chad kincham · Feb 28, 2021

Calvin had a problem - reconciling the five points of reformed dogma with the fact that some sincere, committed, Christians fall away after years of belief.

He came up with EVANESCENT grace to explain it, which is the claim that God gives temporary grace to some, who believe and live the Christian life until the temporary grace is removed, then they immediately fall away.

This means that a Calvinist has no assurance they are really the true elect, because they might just have temporary grace, and will fall someday when God yanks it away.

Mark Quayle · Feb 28, 2021

zoidar said:
I know you Reformed don't use the terms objective and subjective.

Huh? You've lost me. We don't? We use them all the time! Opinions and feelings and often conclusions are subjective. Evidence is objective. Human morality is subjective, God's is objective. What are you saying here?

zoidar said:
The Bible doesn't say Jesus was punished for our sins, not literally I mean, yet most protestants take that for granted. The Bible says he bore our sins or became sin. People normally refer to Isaiah to show Jesus was punished in our place. I find it a bit strange we don't have that worded out in the NT.

Haha is that your subjective opinion? (Sorry.) Was he not our sacrificial atonement? Did he not take our place --that would have been our punishment? Did he not die for sin, just as God told Adam would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

If he was not punished for our sin, what did happen?

bling · Feb 28, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Not sure what that is supposed to mean. Does it mean you understand what I said with God's Word? Or does it mean you disagree and yet you are not willing (or unable) to show me how I am wrong in my interpretation on this verse?

The blood of Christ continues to wash our sins away as long as we just stay on the path.

Dave L · Mar 1, 2021

chad kincham said:
Calvin had a problem - reconciling the five points of reformed dogma with the fact that some sincere, committed, Christians fall away after years of belief.

He came up with EVANESCENT grace to explain it, which is the claim that God gives temporary grace to some, who believe and live the Christian life until the temporary grace is removed, then they immediately fall away.

This means that a Calvinist has no assurance they are really the true elect, because they might just have temporary grace, and will fall someday when God yanks it away.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

zoidar · Mar 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Huh? You've lost me. We don't? We use them all the time! Opinions and feelings and often conclusions are subjective. Evidence is objective. Human morality is subjective, God's is objective. What are you saying here?

I meant when it comes to the atonement... Lutherans say the objective part is what was done on the cross, and the subjective part is us receiving it. In the sense the whole of mankind is forgiven (objective), received by faith so it saves (subjective).

Haha is that your subjective opinion? (Sorry.) Was he not our sacrificial atonement? Did he not take our place --that would have been our punishment? Did he not die for sin, just as God told Adam would happen if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

If he was not punished for our sin, what did happen?

I think you know of the Christus Victor view? Of course he died for sin. But was it a punishment laid on him or was it that he took the consequence of sin? The thing is like I said, the Bible never literally expresses it: "Jesus was punished for our sins".

I'm just saying I'm unclear about the nuances of the atonement. I do believe as you say Jesus was our sacrificial atonement.

I think Jesus took the punishment that sin leads to, not that the Father punished Jesus. If that that makes sense?

Mark Quayle · Mar 1, 2021

zoidar said:
I meant when it comes to the atonement... Lutherans say the objective part is what was done on the cross, and the subjective part is us receiving it. In the sense the whole of mankind is forgiven (objective), received by faith so it saves (subjective).

I think you know of the Christus Victor view? Of course he died for sin. But was it a punishment laid on him or was it that he took the consequence of sin? The thing is like I said, the Bible never literally expresses it: "Jesus was punished for our sins".

I'm just saying I'm unclear about the nuances of the atonement. I do believe as you say Jesus was our sacrificial atonement.

I think Jesus took the punishment that sin leads to, not that the Father punished Jesus. If that that makes sense?

Sounds like a distinction without a difference. Certainly he was separated from God, or certainly God turned his face from him.

You say, 'not in the Bible'; if I remember right, you originally said, 'not in the NT'. Certainly Isaiah 53 sounds like he was punished for our sin. (Verse 5) "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." But I get your point. I agree we don't know all the particulars, and I have noticed over the years that all the narratives I have seen that try to systematically lay it out contradict themselves and each other at some point. They all focus on this or that aspect and simply don't do the whole job.

Nevertheless, it seems to me imprudent to insist that what justice demanded of Christ was any different from what justice would have demanded of each person for whom Christ died.

BobRyan · Mar 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
If he was not punished for our sin, what did happen?

Atoning sacrifice 1 John 2:2 happened at the cross "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS of the whole world" -

God uses the "atonement" model of Lev 16 - not the grocery store model.

In a grocery store no matter who pays for your groceries .. once they are paid for the grocer is paid and you can "do as you will with them" as you leave the store - they are yours.

That is not the model God uses . He uses the "atonement model" where instead of God getting paid for our debt of sin- He gets tortured. Hence the Matt 18 principle of "forgiveness revoked" and the Rom 11 principle of fallen from grace as we also see in Gal 5:4 and Heb 6:2-7

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

zoidar said:
I'm just saying I'm unclear about the nuances of the atonement. I do believe as you say Jesus was our sacrificial atonement.

I think Jesus took the punishment that sin leads to, not that the Father punished Jesus. If that that makes sense?

Luke 12 shows us that for each and every sin based on our circumstances there is an exact debt of torment owed

Luke 12:
45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

It is variable debt depending on cases as Christ points out.

And in Is 53 Christ paid our debt of sin at the cross.

But God is not "getting paid" at the cross - God is getting tortured.

No "person" no "being" is getting paid at the cross... rather the Law of God is being upheld in that the penalty it demands is being provided. Then as part of Lev 16 Atonement we have not just the "sin offering" slain - but ALSO the work of the High Priest. Which in Heb 8:1-5 Paul says "is the main point".

Christ as our High Priest in heaven continues the full Bible scope of Atonement - not merely the very limited scope of "atoning sacrifice" which was completed at the cross.

Because most people just mean "atoning sacrifice" by the word "Atonement" they are missing the bigger picture and just why it is "the world did not end at the cross" - salvation completed.

Mark Quayle · Mar 1, 2021

BobRyan said:
Atoning sacrifice 1 John 2:2 happened at the cross "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS of the whole world" -

God uses the "atonement" model of Lev 16 - not the grocery store model.

In a grocery store no matter who pays for your groceries .. once they are paid for the grocer is paid and you can "do as you will with them" as you leave the store - they are yours.

That is not the model God uses . He uses the "atonement model" where instead of God getting paid for our debt of sin- He gets tortured. Hence the Matt 18 principle of "forgiveness revoked" and the Rom 11 principle of fallen from grace as we also see in Gal 5:4 and Heb 6:2-7

Gal 5:4 You have been severed

from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

I don't see how that answers the question of whether he was actually punished for our sin in the same way we would have been.

However, as to what you do say, I agree the grocery store model is ludicrous --I don't recall anyone using it. But we are talking about a debt paid. We are talking about justice being carried out upon Christ in our place. You say the atonement model is not about the debt; well, perhaps not directly, but it comes to the same thing, since the punishment for sin is death.

Also, I don't follow your logic in the last few, about 'forgiveness revoked' and such, nor even why you brought it up. Seems like you meant to be answering something in another thread.

BobRyan · Mar 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I don't see how that answers the question of whether he was actually punished for our sin in the same way we would have been.

That post is updated to include Isaiah 53

And in Is 53 Christ paid our debt of sin at the cross. (which is also taught in 1 John 2:2 - which for some reason you are saying you do not see there)

BobRyan said:
Atoning sacrifice 1 John 2:2 happened at the cross "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the SINS of the whole world" -

God uses the "atonement" model of Lev 16 - not the grocery store model.

In a grocery store no matter who pays for your groceries .. once they are paid for the grocer is paid and you can "do as you will with them" as you leave the store - they are yours.

That is not the model God uses . He uses the "atonement model" where instead of God getting paid for our debt of sin- He gets tortured. Hence the Matt 18 principle of "forgiveness revoked" and the Rom 11 principle of fallen from grace as we also see in Gal 5:4 and Heb 6:2-7

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

Luke 12 shows us that for each and every sin based on our circumstances there is an exact debt of torment owed

Luke 12:
45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

It is variable debt depending on cases as Christ points out.

And in Is 53 Christ paid our debt of sin at the cross.

But God is not "getting paid" at the cross - God is getting tortured.

No "person" no "being" is getting paid at the cross... rather the Law of God is being upheld in that the penalty it demands is being provided. Then as part of Lev 16 Atonement we have not just the "sin offering" slain - but ALSO the work of the High Priest. Which in Heb 8:1-5 Paul says "is the main point".

Christ as our High Priest in heaven continues the full Bible scope of Atonement - not merely the very limited scope of "atoning sacrifice" which was completed at the cross.

Because most people just mean "atoning sacrifice" by the word "Atonement" they are missing the bigger picture and just why it is "the world did not end at the cross" - salvation completed.

================================

Mark Quayle said:
However, as to what you do say, I agree the grocery store model is ludicrous --I don't recall anyone using it.

Almost everyone uses that model they just don't give it that label.

"Your sins paid - game over" kinds of statements with all the full scope of atonement (that they will consider) completed at the cross since all they have is the "atoning sacrifice" scope for atonement which leads to OSAS and a great many other extensions of that short limited scope for the term.

Mark Quayle said:
But we are talking about a debt paid. We are talking about justice being carried out upon Christ in our place. You say the atonement model is not about the debt;

I never say "the atonement model is not about the debt" - I believe it is all about the debt , is the payment full and complete as demanded by the law and is God "both just AND the justifier" in that entire process. Will there a be a sinless eternity of free will sinless beings as a result of the full Atonement, never again incurring more debt -- or does heaven get reduced to mind-zapping and robotized beings without free will so as tot guarantee no more sin?

Mark Quayle said:
Also, I don't follow your logic in the last few, about 'forgiveness revoked' and such, nor even why you brought it up. Seems like you meant to be answering something in another thread.

In the grocery store model there is no such thing as "payment revoked" for your groceries after you leave the store. The Matt 18 statement "I forgave you ALL that debt" cannot be followed by "turn him over to the torturers until he should REPAY ALL" - that is not even possible the model most people use for the gospel. In the same way Paul's Rom 11 statement "you stand only by your faith" should no be followed by "you should FEAR for if God did not spare them - He may not spare you either" - that is not even possible in the grocery store model.

In Gal 5:4 "fallen from grace...severed from Christ" cannot even exist in that grocery store model because having paid the bill and left the store - there is nothing more that the grocer can claim or revoke or sever. the deal is done ... transaction full and complete.

BobRyan · Mar 1, 2021

Is 53 - Christ paid our debt of sin - (so God is tortured for our debt of sin - not "paid")

5 But He was pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To fall on Him.
...
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off from the land of the living
For the wrongdoing of my people, to whom the blow was due?
..

10 But the Lord desired
To crush Him, causing Him grief;
If He renders Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the plunder with the strong,
Because He poured out His life unto death,
And was counted with wrongdoers;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the wrongdoers.

NKJV -
Is 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

zoidar · Mar 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Sounds like a distinction without a difference. Certainly he was separated from God, or certainly God turned his face from him.

“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
— Matthew 27:46

In what sense had God forsaken Jesus? Was it that he was separated from God or that God let Jesus experience this aweful torture until death? I think that Jesus prays to God: "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit" (Luke 23:46), makes a good argument for him not being separated from God.

You say, 'not in the Bible'; if I remember right, you originally said, 'not in the NT'. Certainly Isaiah 53 sounds like he was punished for our sin. (Verse 5) "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." But I get your point. I agree we don't know all the particulars, and I have noticed over the years that all the narratives I have seen that try to systematically lay it out contradict themselves and each other at some point. They all focus on this or that aspect and simply don't do the whole job.

Yes, I know about Isaiah 53. I don't know which Bible you use that says: "the punishment that brought us peace was on him". NASB says: "The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him".

Strong's Hebrew: 4148. מוּסָר (musar) -- discipline, chastening, correction

Agree with you, we don't need to know about all the particulars.

Nevertheless, it seems to me imprudent to insist that what justice demanded of Christ was any different from what justice would have demanded of each person for whom Christ died.

Can you expand on that? Not sure I fully follow.

zoidar · Mar 1, 2021

BobRyan said:
That post is updated to include Isaiah 53

And in Is 53 Christ paid our debt of sin at the cross. (which is also taught in 1 John 2:2 - which for some reason you are saying you do not see there)

================================

Almost everyone uses that model they just don't give it that label.

"Your sins paid - game over" kinds of statements with all the full scope of atonement (that they will consider) completed at the cross since all they have is the "atoning sacrifice" scope for atonement which leads to OSAS and a great many other extensions of that short limited scope for the term.

I never say "the atonement model is not about the debt" - I believe it is all about the debt , is the payment full and complete as demanded by the law and is God "both just AND the justifier" in that entire process. Will there a be a sinless eternity of free will sinless beings as a result of the full Atonement, never again incurring more debt -- or does heaven get reduced to mind-zapping and robotized beings without free will so as tot guarantee no more sin?

In the grocery store model there is no such thing as "payment revoked" for your groceries after you leave the store. The Matt 18 statement "I forgave you ALL that debt" cannot be followed by "turn him over to the torturers until he should REPAY ALL" - that is not even possible the model most people use for the gospel. In the same way Paul's Rom 11 statement "you stand only by your faith" should no be followed by "you should FEAR for if God did not spare them - He may not spare you either" - that is not even possible in the grocery store model.

In Gal 5:4 "fallen from grace...severed from Christ" cannot even exist in that grocery store model because having paid the bill and left the store - there is nothing more that the grocer can claim or revoke or sever. the deal is done ... transaction full and complete.

Sounds like arguments against OSAS. I also see that in Matthew 18, being once forgiven, the guilt can be reinstalled. Not really part of the discussion (I think), but good point.

LightLoveHope · Mar 1, 2021

zoidar said:
Then there is no problem. But it leads to this question:

How do I know with 100% certainty I am of the elect?

The same way you know you are married.
It is about faithfulness, patience, love, endurance, truth, honest, openness.

The point about salvation is it rests on the rock of Jesus's gospel, founded on walking in love in all ones interactions. It is here we find our rest. Jesus was not just saying believe me, He was saying know my kingdom and how it works. It is in the knowing that one discovers Jesus is the Christ.

It is strange that the sermon on the mount holds such wisdom and reality that can last a lifetime.
It is because the words work like a prism on ones life experience and all take on different significance as different experiences occur. With no experience, the words speak of another world that seems distant and hard to grasp. But when love captivates ones soul, the words ring true and echo all the nuance and depth to which they talk. It is like looking in the mirror, which is dark and cloudy at first but as one is cleansed and purified, emotions set straight, things put in order, it becomes clearer with each step.

There is no such thing as objectivity, only the width of the gap between Gods work in the heart and where we are. The mystery is not so much in being totally cleansed but in knowing our limitations and weaknesses and working through them. A blind man is blind and so cannot see the safe path from the one that destroys them. In Jesus we see the straight path and the roads to left and right which we could travel but choose to stay true to our King.

God bless you

Mark Quayle · Mar 1, 2021

zoidar said:
“My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
— Matthew 27:46

In what sense had God forsaken Jesus? Was it that he was separated from God or that God let Jesus experience this aweful torture until death? I think that Jesus prays to God: "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit" (Luke 23:46), makes a good argument for him not being separated from God.

Yes, I know about Isaiah 53. I don't know which Bible you use that says: "the punishment that brought us peace was on him". NASB says: "The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him".

Strong's Hebrew: 4148. מוּסָר (musar) -- discipline, chastening, correction

Agree with you, we don't need to know about all the particulars.

Can you expand on that? Not sure I fully follow.

Simple death of the flesh, to my mind, anyway, is a turning point, subsequent to which the soul/resurrected corruption that enters the 2nd death must pay his debt of sin. Christ bore the sin of some --this much we know-- and the death of his flesh to my mind, anyway, was not the whole payment, but I could be wrong, because he said "it is finished". Yet, before that, he said, Why have you forsaken me?". I suppose most believers will reference Habakkuk 1:13 which says that God cannot look upon sin. And maybe there's something to that, but maybe there's more to explain Jesus' distress at that point.

Either way, it seems apparent to me that the three days subsequent to his death may not have been when he paid our sin, but the moment(s) before saying, "It is finished" To me it makes sense to think that not only the legal payment for sin took place in a mere moment with his actual death of his temporal flesh, but that the actual punishment was done to him in a mere moment (or maybe for about half and hour?). After all, at least to my mind, God is able to make anything he wants of Eternity or Time, in our framework.

Jesus' soul's infinite torment doesn't have to be eternal, as in a very long time without end, but infinite in depth of actuality. I think Christ suffered every bit the torment in every way we would have, had he not borne it for us. God's justice is precise and thorough.

So we come back to "God why have you forsaken me". It does not have to be about "God turning his back" in the sense that he cannot look upon sin, but in the same sense that he has no more mercy or even common graces upon condemned souls. I think Christ was abandoned just as we would have been.

This makes no implication that God did not have this well in hand, but the half-hour's darkness and earthquake to me are hints at what a tremendous contradiction against reality --"cosmic treason" as Paulomycin calls it-- sin is. I imagine all of creation was shaken.

Neogaia777 · Mar 2, 2021

zoidar said:
This thread is purely for discussing partial atonement, not whether it is true or not, but what follows the belief of the doctrine.

1. Can I know with 100% certainty that I am of the elect?

2. If the answer to question 1 is "no", then can I know with 100% certainty that Christ has borne my sins?

3. If the answer to question 2 is "no" then how can I fully trust on Jesus for salvation if I can't be 100% sure Jesus has borne my sins?

Is there a problem here, or is it simply a misunderstanding on my part? This doctrine can seem to divide us, but if we belong to Christ we are still one family. Be blessed brothers and sisters!

Her's probably the bigger and maybe more important question, etc...

If a person can live with the 100% absolute certainty of absolutely without a doubt knowing he or she is most definitely going to heaven, while knowing that some, and maybe many others just are not, etc, but that does not at all ever bother them ever, etc, then how can they be 100% absolutely certain they are truly going to heaven in the afterlife to begin with, etc...?

If that does not at all ever bother them ever, etc...?

And beyond that, if they did not have such great heartache heart-wrenching Love for them, that they wished that they were the ones going to hell in their place, so that they then, in turn then, could be one of the ones going to heaven in the place of them, etc, like Paul did, etc...?

Are you really so sure you are of the quote/unquote "elect" or are truly saved, etc...?

Do you feel this great, great pain, etc, and does it really, really bother you, and bother you a lot, and maybe all of the time, etc, and I do mean "all of the time", etc...?

Cause if it does not, or you don't truly feel this this deeply, etc, and everywhere you are and all of the time, etc, then how do know for sure you are truly one of the ones who is quote/unquote "saved", etc...?

Would you die, or be or stand forever cursed for a stranger, etc...?

Cause these are some of the things/questions I wrestle with, etc...

And the pain that I feel that I almost cannot deal with, etc...

If you don't ever feel that ever, then are you really truly saved, etc...?

And if you still say "yes", then how can you be so sure, etc...?

Myself, or my heart or whatever, literally projects onto them sometimes I feel it so deeply sometimes, etc, and I even have a few, or more than a few problems now because of it, etc...

Almost like an "out of body experience", etc...

And I cannot control it most of the time at ever either, etc...

Do any of you guys ever feel that, and/or experience this at all ever sometimes ever, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Mar 2, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
Her's probably the bigger and maybe more important question, etc...

If a person can live with the 100% absolute certainty of absolutely without a doubt knowing he or she is most definitely going to heaven, while knowing that some, and maybe many others just are not, etc, but that does not at all ever bother them ever, etc, then how can they be 100% absolutely certain they are truly going to heaven in the afterlife to begin with, etc...?

If that does not at all ever bother them ever, etc...?

And beyond that, if they did not have such great heartache heart-wrenching Love for them, that they wished that they were the ones going to hell in their place, so that they then, in turn then, could be one of the ones going to heaven in the place of them, etc, like Paul did, etc...?

Are you really so sure you are of the quote/unquote "elect" or are truly saved, etc...?

Do you feel this great, great pain, etc, and does it really, really bother you, and bother you a lot, and maybe all of the time, etc, and I do mean "all of the time", etc...?

Cause if it does not, or you don't truly feel this this deeply, etc, and everywhere you are and all of the time, etc, then how do know for sure you are truly one of the ones who is quote/unquote "saved", etc...?

Would you die, or be or stand forever cursed for a stranger, etc...?

Cause these are some of the things/questions I wrestle with, etc...

And the pain that I feel that I almost cannot deal with, etc...

If you don't ever feel that ever, then are you really truly saved, etc...?

And if you still say "yes", then how can you be so sure, etc...?

Myself, or my heart or whatever, literally projects onto them sometimes I feel it so deeply sometimes, etc, and I even have a few, or more than a few problems now because of it, etc...

Almost like an "out of body experience", etc...

And I cannot control it most of the time at ever either, etc...

Do any of you guys ever feel that, and/or experience this at all ever sometimes ever, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

I have to "hold back", and sometimes hold back with "all that I am and all that I can" a lot of the time, etc, with "all of my strength", etc, cause I just "have to", etc...

And while this might be a basis for a good indicator that I might be one of the ones who is or will actually be saved "maybe", etc, it's not a very comfortable place to be in while I am still yet here still, etc...

How can you settle yourself with it ever at all completely, etc, knowing that you will probably be saved or spared, but while so very many others may not ever be, etc, and it's almost like it's all I see when I look around, or am ever around them, or is/are "out there", among them, etc, it's more than I can bear, I wish I didn't feel this way, and didn't see it, etc, but I just can't help it, etc, let alone control it, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

zoidar · Mar 2, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Simple death of the flesh, to my mind, anyway, is a turning point, subsequent to which the soul/resurrected corruption that enters the 2nd death must pay his debt of sin. Christ bore the sin of some --this much we know-- and the death of his flesh to my mind, anyway, was not the whole payment, but I could be wrong, because he said "it is finished". Yet, before that, he said, Why have you forsaken me?". I suppose most believers will reference Habakkuk 1:13 which says that God cannot look upon sin. And maybe there's something to that, but maybe there's more to explain Jesus' distress at that point.

Either way, it seems apparent to me that the three days subsequent to his death may not have been when he paid our sin, but the moment(s) before saying, "It is finished" To me it makes sense to think that not only the legal payment for sin took place in a mere moment with his actual death of his temporal flesh, but that the actual punishment was done to him in a mere moment (or maybe for about half and hour?). After all, at least to my mind, God is able to make anything he wants of Eternity or Time, in our framework.

Jesus' soul's infinite torment doesn't have to be eternal, as in a very long time without end, but infinite in depth of actuality. I think Christ suffered every bit the torment in every way we would have, had he not borne it for us. God's justice is precise and thorough.

So we come back to "God why have you forsaken me". It does not have to be about "God turning his back" in the sense that he cannot look upon sin, but in the same sense that he has no more mercy or even common graces upon condemned souls. I think Christ was abandoned just as we would have been.

This makes no implication that God did not have this well in hand, but the half-hour's darkness and earthquake to me are hints at what a tremendous contradiction against reality --"cosmic treason" as Paulomycin calls it-- sin is. I imagine all of creation was shaken.

Thanks for your thoughts, Mark!

I believe Jesus physical death was an important (and necessary) part of the equation, also his resurrection to conquer sin. We wouldn't have been redeemed unless Jesus was resurrected.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
— 1 Peter 1:3

Mark Quayle · Mar 2, 2021

zoidar said:
I believe Jesus physical death was an important (and necessary) part of the equation, also his resurrection to conquer sin. We wouldn't have been redeemed unless Jesus was resurrected.

Of course, but the resurrection is not the payment we were referencing. At least, I don't see how. It just shows his victory over death, as God.

zoidar · Mar 3, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Of course, but the resurrection is not the payment we were referencing. At least, I don't see how. It just shows his victory over death, as God.

The Bible says sin leads to death, so I think Jesus' physical death was at least part the punishment. I think the resurrection was the victory over the devil and sin, and of course death. If Jesus wasn't resurrected I see no victory over sin. So the resurrection is part of our redemption, cleansing us from sin, giving us a new nature. My thoughts anyway.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
— Romans 6:23

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
— Romans 6:4

A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)

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