What if God gave you a life of suffering so he could bless you eternally?

TedT said:

Will you explain Heb 12:5-11 to me then?

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Firstly, Scripture needs to be read in context, not yanked out of it to try to prove a point - you can prove anything you want using that method.
A little background might help too.

David Pawson says in his commentary that the church to whom this letter was written were facing persecution. The church was made up of both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.
If faced with death for their faith, the Jewish Christians could have said, "no, we're Jews" and gone back to the Synagogue. But in order to be accepted by the Synagogues again, they would have had to denied that Jesus was the Messiah; claim they had made a mistake and followed a false Christ. They would have escaped persecution and death by denying their faith in Christ.
It seems that some were thinking of doing this. So the book of Hebrews was written - explaining how Jesus is greater than Moses, the perfect great High Priest and the sacrifice made once and all for sin. The author says in chapter 6 that if someone turns away from the faith and then tries to turn back, it is as though they are crucifying the Son of God all over again.

In chapter 12, just before the verses you quoted, the author tells them to fix their eyes on Jesus and persevere and that they have not yet resisted to the point of shedding their blood. He tells them (vv 5-11) to regard the hardship that they are going through as discipline, and in v 12 encourages them to be strong. In vv 14-29 he reminds them to be holy, to fear God and not disobey him.

All of this is very far from saying that God SENDS suffering in order to bless them.

TedT said:

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?

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I've no idea what your reason was for quoting that verse, but it certainly doesn't say that God sends sickness and suffering to be a blessing.

If the only reasons for sickness and suffering were to bless people and teach them about God, Jesus wouldn't have healed anyone. He would have said that they were blessed because they were being taught lessons about themselves and God and left them in that state. But he didn't. He healed the sick, and he didn't send sickness upon the healthy.

Jamdoc said:

I don't expect reward for my suffering. I expect that I either did something to deserve it, or that God is conditioning me with it.
Frankly between being crippled and just not being good with people I don't expect many rewards or blessings at all, because I have not been able to work for the kingdom to the degree that I'd like to.

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Yet you may have blessed others in ways that you know nothing about. You may be, and have been, a role model; an example of someone who loves and trusts God in their suffering. You may be able to learn the Scriptures and then teach, or encourage, others. You may have a great smile, always offer words of encouragement and always have time to listen to/pray for folk.
If God intended all Christians to be able to DO/WORK for the Kingdom he would make sure that no one was ever ill. In fact Christians would have better health than anyone else.

I had M.E for 18 years, could DO very little, had to give up my nurse's training and worthwhile career, and spent far more time in bed than I ever wanted to. Yet during that time I discovered various crafts, and because I couldn't physically visit people, I would make a greetings card to say that I was thinking of them. (I still do this even though I am well now.) During this time I also trained as a lay preacher and made 2 websites for folks with M.E.
It's possible I achieved more, or as much, during those years as I had previously, though in a different way - which is why I look back at that time and say that God used it for good.
That's not the same as saying that he sent it to teach me a lesson - M.E was not a punishment for sin - or to teach me about him, but he was still in it.

TedT said:

Please consider:
all suffering is due to sin.

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Sickness and suffering came into the world when sin did, so in that sense, yes.
But if someone has Covid, a cold, cancer, MS etc it does not mean that it was directly caused by their sin and God is punishing them - otherwise the cross is pointless.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

What if God gave you a life of suffering so he could bless you eternally?

Some might say well couldn't he have just given you the blessing without the suffering? The answer is yes but if he blesses you eternally after you have suffered for a lifetime then that blessing means so much more than if you have always had it good.

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Thing is though God NEVER created MAN to live a life of sorrow and suffering. God's original intent was that mankind would constantly live in PEACE and all things going well. See the Garden of Eden. Yes they were given mandate to make the rest of the Earth like the Garden in Eden and such was good to allow them an outlet to express their creative abilities, to give them meaning with things to achieve and accomplish but as far as suffering no that was never God's intent and he's a God who does not change.

This raises the question well if God wanted something to be a certain way well it just would be. As for me I don't see that in scripture at least in the way that we're talking about here.

And the soteriological difference?

And the implication for one's human origin?

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TedT said:

You seem to be quoting scripture as if it was the very essence of your meaning of that scripture...eisegesis can be fun...!

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Non-responsive. . .

Strong in Him said:

Sickness and suffering came into the world when sin did, so in that sense, yes.
But if someone has Covid, a cold, cancer, MS etc it does not mean that it was directly caused by their sin and God is punishing them - otherwise tts f sin he cross is pointless.

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The point of the cross was reconciliation with GOD, not sanctification. Those legitimate children who still live in the pleasures and profits of sin are chastised, scourged, punished as discipline in their training to become righteous.

TedT said:

The point of the cross was reconciliation with GOD, not sanctification.

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I know.

TedT said:

Those legitimate children who still live in the pleasures and profits of sin are chastised, scourged, punished as discipline in their training to become righteous.

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No.
God never revealed his great love for me by sending me allergies, tummy bugs, M.E. a slipped disc etc. God revealed his awesome, pure love for me by the cross - by showing me that I, a sinner who deserved eternal separation from God, could have forgiveness, love, joy, peace and eternal life with God. Not because I had done anything to deserve it, but because in his love he gave his spotless Son to save me.

God convicts me of sin through the Holy Spirit, who leads me to Jesus for forgiveness; he does not say "you slipped up there; have a migraine until you learn gratitude", or "will you never learn patience? You'd better have M.E for 18 years until you do."

If God punished Christians with illness to discipline us then you'd expect him to have some kind of scale - and maybe put it in Scripture so we knew what to avoid.
Did you do wrong, or utter harsh words? That's only a small sin; have a headache.
Have you told a lie, hurt someone or failed to do good? That's a bit more serious; have tonsillitis. If you're sufficiently repentant, one dose of antibiotics should clear it up, if not, it will mean surgery and a post op infection.
What about failing to read the Bible and pray enough? Hmm; that's serious, but not nearly as serious as taking verses out of context and leading others astray. So maybe have M.E for a few years just to teach you.
What about adultery or murder? Obviously nothing less than cancer or a brain tumour for those.

I hope you can see the absurdity of such a thing.
The fact is that some Christians are born with illnesses/genetic weaknesses, others become ill and others have a sickness free life. Some Christian leaders have had/died from cancer - others, who say appalling things such as "Covid has gone and will never come back", or "the Lord will return on this day", are still walking around. Some Christians have a life free from illness but are still miserable, judgemental and believe that only their point of view is correct. Others have one illness/misfortune after another but are the most joyful, peaceful God like people you could imagine.

And if you told an unbeliever that their illness or disability was either a punishment from God or a blessing from God, it's quite likely they'd not come to faith at all.

God sends trials and tribulations. Is sickness not a trial and tribulation, @Strong in Him ?

friend of said:

God sends trials and tribulations. Is sickness not a trial and tribulation, @Strong in Him ?

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It can be - but Scripture also says that every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1:17.
Is a trial or tribulation a perfect gift? Would you welcome a brain tumour as the best gift God has ever given you?

Oftentimes the blessings that we do receive in this life are only apparent when they stand in contrast to our sufferings and struggles. Most of us are blessed with many things. Being able to turn on a tap and have hot or cold running water for instance. But many of us take this for granted but really it is a blessing. Every second that God continues to grant us life is a blessing.

These things are rarely even visible to us without the suffering that gives contrast. As you say those who live in comfort tend to take everything for granted.

Strong in Him said:

It can be - but Scripture also says that every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1:17.
Is a trial or tribulation a perfect gift? Would you welcome a brain tumour as the best gift God has ever given you?

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No, but if someone is afflicted in such a way, is that not God's will for that person? Is God not Sovereign over us? Job 2:10

Strong in Him said:

Did you do wrong, or utter harsh words? That's only a small sin; have a headache.

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What is the disvalue of the least sin? There can be no small sin because all sin has an equal and ultimate (ie perfect) disvalue to GOD. In an elect the least sin puts Christ on the cross. In a non-elect reprobate, the least sin puts them into the outer darkness. All responses to sin by GOD proceed from who the sinner is within their eternal relationship to GOD, Satanic enemy or sinful elect - not from the disvalue of their worst sin.

ImCo, the pain of the discipline of training in righteousness, Heb 12:11 is for stubborness in indulging in sin: Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.

TedT said:

ImCo, the pain of the discipline of training in righteousness, Heb 12:11 is for stubborness in indulging in sin: Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful.

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You asked me to explain Hebrews 12:5-11 to you; I did and you ignored it.
You asked me to explain a verse from Luke yo you; I asked you why you quoted it and how it was relevant, and you ignored the question.

That Heb 12:11 is about stubbornness in sin, is your interpretation - I said that you've yanked it out of context.

Strong in Him said:

It can be - but Scripture also says that every good and perfect gift comes from God, James 1:17.
Is a trial or tribulation a perfect gift? Would you welcome a brain tumour as the best gift God has ever given you?

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I think another question to ask here would be if one believes God wants people to have the so called blessing why should any obedient saint be going to a doctor and even paying medical people to get rid of it? Would it not be seeking to get out of the will of God?

alllivesmatter said:

It infers that all through the bible. Don't complain, be still, be thankful for your suffering, etc. Maybe you have a different bible then mine?

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Chapter and verse, please. Thanks.
Pseudo-biblical statements are just that. They may sound biblical, but they are not. You wrote, "Suffer in silence the bible says." Now you ask if I have a different Bible than yours. - lol

I guess so. My Bible doesn't say "Suffer in silence." What sort of Bible do you have?

Where does the Bible say that those in pain:
- shouldn't complain?
- should be still? (whatever that means)
- should be thankful for their suffering?
- etc. (there's more?)

friend of said:

No, but if someone is afflicted in such a way, is that not God's will for that person? Is God not Sovereign over us? Job 2:10

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So again I ask would that mean that you or others would be advising people to not see a doctor? Would that not be seeking to get them out of the will of God? And are you saying if someone you knew was concerned about the results of a medical test and they later told you the results came back negative that there's no way you could rejoice with them? After all if it came back negative that'd be good news to you too?

TedT said:

NO, the suffering is the blessing!!!! Heb 12:5-11!!!!!!

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If suffering itself is a blessing what are we supposed to be Masochists?
If that is in itself, the blessing, then those in hell are the most blessed?

Bobber said:

So again I ask would that mean that you or others would be advising people to not see a doctor?

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No.

Bobber said:

And are you saying if someone you knew was concerned about the results of a medical test and they later told you the results came back negative that there's no way you could rejoice with them? After all if it came back negative that'd be good news to you too?

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The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. This also applies to one's health.

Dear ones, beloved in Christ.

Remember what has been said to us :
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. -Romans 8:14
For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" -Romans 8:15
and if children, then heirs'heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. -Romans 8:17

Indeed, as children of God, we are called to suffer with our Lord Jesus Christ in order that we are glorified with Him.

To suffer with our Lord doesn’t mean that we live our lives in fear !

We must understand that we should be thankful that we are not alone in our suffering and thankful that He is willing to suffer with us. The Lord has given grace to us by saying He suffered with us !

How do we know the Lord is willing to suffer with us ? This is what we have heard:

Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. -Matthew 11:28
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. -Matthew 11:29
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." -Matthew 11:30

When suffering, surely we are weary and burdened. The Lord not only promised to give us rest to our souls or minds. And also He said to us to take His yoke. What it means to take His yoke? He bears the suffering with us. That is how good is our Lord !

Dear ones, consider our own suffering. We must consider whether we suffer for what is right or wrong ? If we suffer for what is wrong, we need to repent, and get to the Lord’s side. If we suffer for what is right then we suffer for righteousness’ sake or for Christ’s sake.

For this is what we have heard:
For what credit is there in bearing up under a beating you deserve for doing something wrong? But if you bear up under punishment, even though you have done what is right, God looks on it with favor.

Indeed, this is what you were CALLED to; because the Messiah too suffered, on your behalf, leaving an example so that you should follow in His steps.-1 Peter 2:20-21

Yes, suffering is painful! It is painful to Jesus, too, bearing our suffering!

This, too, we heard in Psalm:
Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears us up; God is our salvation. Selah -Psalms 68:19

Yes, our Lord daily bears up our burden or afflictions or sufferings. That is how great is His love for us !

That is why we heard this:
and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him who for their sake died and was raised. -2 Corinthians 5:15

So, we suffer not only with our Lord but for our Lord who for our sake died and was raised !

Why our Lord is willing to bear our suffering for us and now with us ? Because our Lord is love. For this is what we have heard:

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. -1 Corinthians 13:7

That is why as children of God, we are called to imitate God and walk in love as Christ have loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. ( Ephesians 5:1-2)

Yes, we are called to imitate Son of God who is also called as the Lamb of God.
As we have heard:
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! -John 1:29
And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God." -John 1:34

So we imitate as his little lambs or sheep as the Lord call us:

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. -John 10:15
And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. -John 10:16

How the sheep have been known to suffer ?

This is what we have heard:
Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" -Revelation 7:13
I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:14

Is suffering a blessing ? We need to consider what we have been told:
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. -1 Peter 4:12
But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His glory is revealed. -1 Peter 4:13