Does God love all or some?

Does God love all or some?


  • Total voters
    47

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And for anyone that might think the objections about hell are just some offbeat ramblings on an internet forum, check this out.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: bling
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That’s the ticket. :tearsofjoy: The hatred begins with God in Marks theology and extends to mankind later, so Gods will is the source of man and God being at enmity.

What’s the source of enmity and hatred to the garden variety Christian? Our freewill rejection of Gods universal love.
Right. Like my parody in post #689. As if God's plan was to incinerate anyone that didn't glorify him.

And then promoted the idea, which created invalid conversions, based on fear and self-preservation. Thus doing the most possible to populate hell to the fullest. As if that was the goal all along. Just sick!
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Forgive me, I've come in at the tail end of this discussion. Mark, are you saying that your biblical references ("visiting the fathers sins..." "wailing and gnashing") are not considered cruel by many, but that the positing, "You chose hell..." is in fact, cruel in your approximation, and not what you believe?
I'm not trying to make a point in this, just clarifying.

For reference sake I quote here what I said, that you are asking about:
MQ: "If someone sees a cruel God when God himself says such awful things as 'visiting the father's sins upon his sons, to the 3rd or 4th generation of them that hate him." or "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth", but does not say, "You chose hell of your own autonomous free will, ruining my plans for you.", what am I to think? My God, they claim, is cruel.



I am saying that people take the quotes and principles from Scripture expressing God's justice and punishment of sinners, the same God that DOES NOT say the second quote --the one that makes excuses for him-- to show that he is cruel. I am implying that if God does not excuse himself from what they take to be cruel, it is they who think God to be cruel, and those who excuse him from the charge of cruelty, who are so badly mistaken, and twist or ignore or dismiss Scripture..

We all, except the Atheists and some others, believe God is not cruel. Some, like me, have no problem with God doing whatever he does, including the things others consider cruel. In fact we insist God is just in doing so, and that it shows how big his mercy is toward us and it gives some notion of the horror that sin is. We don't make up explanations that the Bible does not use, for why a person deserves the Lake of Fire nor do we excuse God from what He himself plainly says.

And lest you get me wrong, too, I do not claim the sinner does not deserve his punishment. I just don't believe it take autonomous "free will" choices for him to deserve it. The corrupt will and its choices is enough reason. God is not unjust to set this whole arrangement in play. He SAYS he does, including even hardening some hearts, or causing them to be blind to what he says.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We all, except the Atheists and some others, believe God is not cruel. Some, like me, have no problem with God doing whatever he does, including the things others consider cruel. In fact we insist God is just in doing so, and that it shows how big his mercy is toward us and it gives some notion of the horror that sin is. We don't make up explanations that the Bible does not use, for why a person deserves the Lake of Fire nor do we excuse God from what He himself plainly says.
Wow. That was quite a dance.
Interesting use of "we", "all", "some" and "others".

Saying, "We all" ("except the Atheists and some others") "believe God is not cruel."
HOWEVER, "Some" ("like me") "have no problem with God doing whatever he does," ("including the things others consider cruel.")

AND... "In fact we insist God is just in doing so," ("and that it shows how big his mercy is toward us") "and it gives some notion of the horror that sin is."

SO... "We don't make up explanations that the Bible does not use, for why a person deserves the Lake of Fire nor do we excuse God from what He himself plainly says."

Let's see if I understand this.
MQ does not believe that God is cruel. (as Atheists and some others do) --- Since Atheists don't believe in God, it doesn't follow that they would think him cruel. His inclusion of "and some others" is to categorize the others with Atheists. (unbelievers) What was he saying earlier about strawman arguments?

He has no problem with what God is doing. (including the things others consider cruel) Like incinerating the vast majority of humanity. MQ insists God is just in doing so.

Then he gives us a comparison. What some consider cruelty, actually shows how big his mercy is toward us comparatively. AND the horror that sin is. --- If it isn't cruel, how does this comparative work? How would something that isn't cruel show us how big his mercy is toward us and how horrible sin is?

He concludes that God requires no excuse. No explanation is needed. (for what some see as cruelty)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Based on the premise that God does not lie, nor Jesus, nor the Bible, etc, then the only explanation is that, if God is just, etc, (supposedly and in our minds, etc) (which is a whole other subject altogether, etc) Anyway, based on the premise that God does not lie, nor Jesus, nor the Bible, etc, then the only explanation is, or has to be, that if God is just, etc, then we must all all have all our current definitions of what hell really truly actually is all wrong, etc...? Or the lake of fire, etc, or what this "eternal torment" really actually is really, etc...? All wrong,etc... (and the Bible does say it is eternal, etc)... Anyway, if God is just, then, the only thing left that stands to reason is, that, we must all have all of our current definitions of what this hell, or this true eternal torment actually is, all wrong, etc... And, AND, also why people truly go there or are sent there also, etc...? And, AND, also where it is, or where/when it truly or actually also takes place maybe also as well, etc...

Cause that/it, or those, is the only explanation(s) I see, etc...

Unless were going to be like some people, and call God or Jesus or the Bible a liar, etc...

And that due to "what/when/then" or exactly "what" again, etc...?

Anyway...?

Anyway, and I have been thinking about this for a long, long while now, and think I have come up with some very, very plausible (and logical/reasonable) explanations, etc... but, unfortunately, not many of you seem to care at all to hear them, etc... or maybe your unable, etc, which I do have to admit I have simply just wondered if they may just be way beyond many of your guys capabilities right now, as I have wondered that also, etc...

This also has to do with the True Number One Most Highest Father God's full omniscience from the very beginning always (and always) as well, etc... but then again, I still think many of you are still having a lot of trouble wrapping your minds around that again still also as well, etc, or you simply just don't truly want to, etc, and so you just simply "don't", or just "do not simply", or just simply do not at all ever, etc...

It also has to do with the True Trinity as well, etc, but then again, and/or anyway, again also as well, etc...?

Stuff I've already just now said, etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Cormack

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
Apr 21, 2020
1,469
1,407
London
✟94,797.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Anyway, based on the premise that God does not lie, nor Jesus, nor the Bible, etc, then the only explanation is, or has to be, that if God is just, etc, then we must all all have all our current definitions of what hell really truly actually is all wrong, etc...?

I’d actually be very interested to hear the views of people who truly believe in the classical literal fire, literal bodies, literal hell perspective.

I noticed that even with myself, when I was (seemingly) fully on board with the perspective, my thoughts were more akin to separation from God, not a literal hellfire pit of suffering. They’d be blasted as being on the soft end of the spectrum.

I imagine now that that perspective, the gentle C. S. Lewis school of thought, would be considered by many to be a bit of modern bastardising from what hell truly is.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
That you can't connect the dots, just because you just simply cannot connect the dots, etc, or you just simply don't want to, etc...

So I simply leave you in your sins, etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!
Not to disagree with you, but you probably would do well to be careful what you say --after all, if you see glimmerings of truth that others apparently do not see, what tells you your apprehension of that truth is worthy in any way, or does it justice? Remember that like the rest of us, you too will be measured by the standard by which you measure others.

It is sometimes madmen who see what others do not. But they fail to restrain themselves by use of good judgement in their conclusions.
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Not to disagree with you, but you probably would do well to be careful what you say --after all, if you see glimmerings of truth that others apparently do not see, what tells you your apprehension of that truth is worthy in any way, or does it justice? Remember that like the rest of us, you too will be measured by the standard by which you measure others.
Absolutely nothing about me is worthy in any way, but what is your point...?

And these are not judgments, and if anything they are to provoke you or awaken you to truth, or else jealousy, etc...

Which could also lead to truth maybe, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
I’d actually be very interested to hear the views of people who truly believe in the classical literal fire, literal bodies, literal hell perspective.

I noticed that even with myself, when I was (seemingly) fully on board with the perspective, my thoughts were more akin to separation from God, not a literal hellfire pit of suffering. They’d be blasted as being on the soft end of the spectrum.

I imagine now that that perspective, the gentle C. S. Lewis school of thought, would be considered by many to be a bit of modern bastardising from what hell truly is.
I'd say that never ever being ever meant for anything more than this, "ever", etc, or only what all of this is only now currently is ever, etc, "forever", etc, is a pretty bad, and not very gentle at all "hell" forever if you ask me, etc...

Living a kind of "twilight zone existence" always, etc, and that quite literally "forever", etc, scares the living "hell" out of me, etc... Pun definitely intended, etc...

God Bless!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Cormack
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Cormack

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
Apr 21, 2020
1,469
1,407
London
✟94,797.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
It would for many, @Neogaia777. It’s like how atheists say hell wouldn’t be so bad compared to actual “the dead know nothing” sleep, because at least in a really hot bath you’re aware and feeling something.

I think the appeal of that twilight zone perspective was that A. It’s self imposed loneliness, and B. It doesn’t involve the medieval style torture or torment we see depicted in old school painting, paintings of nude terrified sinners chased by angels into hell, the flaming mouth of a lions head etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,277
5,237
45
Oregon
✟952,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
It would for many, @Neogaia777. It’s like how atheists say hell wouldn’t be so bad compared to actual “the dead know nothing” sleep, because at least in a really hot bath you’re aware and feeling something.

I think the appeal of that twilight zone perspective was that A. It’s self imposed loneliness, and B. It doesn’t involve the medieval style torture or torment we see depicted in old school painting, paintings of nude terrified sinners chased by angels into hell, the flaming mouth of a lions head etc.
I think there is a reason that in Revelation 22, at the very end of the book and after the final judgement, and after the very final conclusion/judgement, etc, has already taken place, etc, and some taken to heaven and some not, etc, it says, "let the righteous one do righteousness still, and the unrighteous, filthy, etc, still do unrighteousness still", etc, and "outside (without) are the dogs", etc, etc, etc, which to me means "outside of the gates (boundaries) of heaven", etc, which to me means "only more (for them) of only these kinds of fallen kinds of existences only for them ever only", etc, and only "forever" only for those ones after that only, etc, and no coming back after that forever only for them after that only, etc...

Scares the "hell" out of me, etc...

Yet everybody got what they wanted, or truly desired/sought after, right...?

Scary to me...

God Bless!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Cormack

“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
Apr 21, 2020
1,469
1,407
London
✟94,797.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yet everybody got what they wanted, or truly desired/sought after, right...?

Or as Lewis famously wrote:

I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside. I do not mean that the ghosts may not wish to come out of hell, in the vague fashion wherein an envious man ‘wishes’ to be happy: but they certainly do not will even the first preliminary stages of that self-abandonment through which alone the soul can reach any good. They enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded, and are therefore self-enslaved: just as the blessed, forever submitting to obedience, become through all eternity more and more free.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
It seems clear that God the Son redeemed some, not all, so how could it ever be said God loves everyone without exception, since God actually is said to hate some?

Easy. You have omitted the power of free will (the power of alternate choice). God loves all but not all respond to Him. They have wills to choose yes or no.

Those who say yes to Jesus and believe are saved (Acts 16:31 NIV).

Oz
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,473
458
London
✟79,581.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
In Agape and Eros, Anders Nygren argues that God's love is spontaneous and unmotivated. He argues that the ground of God's love is found within God and has no extrinsic motivation. It is not because humans are lovable that God loves them, but simply because God is love.

This is why there was disagreement between Jesus and the religious leaders. The assumption of the religious leaders was that God's love was given to the righteous because they were righteous. What motivated God's love was their righteousness. So, when Jesus loves sinners it made no sense to them, and in fact seemed contrary to the character of God. But, of course Jesus being divine, his love was not motivated by the object of love, but came from within himself. He loved because he is love. And because his love was not motivated by the object of his love, he was free to love everyone.

If God loves all, it is because God's love comes from God's own self (i.e. God is love).

If God only loves some, it is because God's love is motivated by the righteousness of the beloved.

"If God's love were restricted to the righteous it would be evoked by its object and not spontaneous; but just by the fact that it seeks sinners, who do not deserve it and can lay no claim to it, it manifests most clearly its spontaneous and unmotivated nature." Anders Nygren

Does God love some or all?

Agape and Eros - Wikipedia
God's love is a burning fire, it burns up all that is not Holy.

Scripture is a survival book not a judgement. The hope is some will make it through, not a set of rules or behaviours but transformation.

Many claim knowledge but without a pure heart do not see God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yet everybody got what they wanted, or truly desired/sought after, right...?

I think that's right. We are all created in the image of God and that says to me that we will achieve our best potential and become more and more the person God wants us to be if we base ourselves on the person of Jesus, God's perfect image. Practice and discipleship must be an important part of that. But I think some people really don't want to be in the image of God so perhaps they will ultimately be given what they want. It's turning your back on both God and your humanity, because part of being fully human is to reflect the image of God, and it's hard to understand why someone would want to do this. Hopefully it's rare. This is how I think of hell anyway. The thing I like most about it is that it's totally different to the Calvinist notion of the "reprobates", a certain class of person similar to the "untouchables" of Hinduism, who Jesus didn't die for and who are predestined for hell despite whatever they do. It's worse than the untouchables actually because they at least have the chance of being reincarnated as a higher class of person and the opportunity of achieving nirvana then whereas that's it for the reprobate, an eternity of swimming around, if they know how to swim, otherwise drowning, in a fiery lake.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think that's right. We are all created in the image of God and that says to me that we will achieve our best potential and become more and more the person God wants us to be if we base ourselves on the person of Jesus, God's perfect image. Practice and discipleship must be an important part of that. But I think some people really don't want to be in the image of God so perhaps they will ultimately be given what they want. It's turning your back on both God and your humanity, because part of being fully human is to reflect the image of God, and it's hard to understand why someone would want to do this. Hopefully it's rare. This is how I think of hell anyway. The thing I like most about it is that it's totally different to the Calvinist notion of the "reprobates", a certain class of person similar to the "untouchables" of Hinduism, who Jesus didn't die for and who are predestined for hell despite whatever they do. It's worse than the untouchables actually because they at least have the chance of being reincarnated as a higher class of person and the opportunity of achieving nirvana then whereas that's it for the reprobate, an eternity of swimming around, if they know how to swim, otherwise drowning, in a fiery lake.
The first part of your post reminded me of this scripture.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The first part of your post reminded me of this scripture.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
@Hmm
I had heard the Christian life being described as a vacation. (a holiday for those across the pond)

We vacate, he occupies. We vacate, he occupies. We vacate, he occupies. The Christian life is one big vacation.
 
Upvote 0