Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?
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Nathan@work
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I typically do not quote a lot of Bible passages. But in this case I find it prudent.
It is not a matter of law vs no law. That is looking at things as if we can know the mind of God. We can’t.
What we can do is be led by His Spirit, and know that He will never lead us contrary to His law.
In this way, the focus is on Him - not on what we think we know of Him.
Step back from the lie that you can be like God, knowing good from evil.
1 John 5:18 (ESV) We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
John 3:6 (ESV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:13-14 (ESV) 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
It is not a matter of law vs no law. That is looking at things as if we can know the mind of God. We can’t.
What we can do is be led by His Spirit, and know that He will never lead us contrary to His law.
In this way, the focus is on Him - not on what we think we know of Him.
Step back from the lie that you can be like God, knowing good from evil.
1 John 5:18 (ESV) We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
John 3:6 (ESV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:13-14 (ESV) 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
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Religiot
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You are conflating the laws of the old covenant contained in ordinances (which has now passed away), with God's eternal laws, which cannot pass away, but were indeed transferred to Christ, and written in the hearts of those born of Him: that is the promise that is now fulfilled.
THE NEW COVENANT IS THE SPIRIT WRITING GOD'S LAWS IN OUR HEARTS
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." --Jeremiah 31:31-34
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." --Hebrews 8:7-13
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another." --Romans 2:13-15
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God saved people back before literacy.
And:
33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts.
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Religiot
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Of course, for the law now exists in the hearts of Christians, who now keep the righteousness of the law, thus establishing it by faith.
Of course, for the law now exists in their hearts.
Of course, the end of the law for righteousness, as the scripture actually says, and He is the beginning of the New Covenant, the covenant of faith; which actually serves to fulfill the righteousness of the law by including grace through faith.
Of course, for to be under the law is to be subject to it, but Christians are under grace, thus we are subject to grace; and the law is no longer above us, but in us; thus we fulfill the law, day by day, by our living faith.
Of course not, for Christ is the One Who justifies, by reconciling us to God, as His children, circumcising our hearts by writing God's laws in our flesh, so that we can actually do the law, rightly, from the heart, and not the letter: for the letter it self kills, but the Spirit gives us new hearts, that will beat forever, the righteousness of God's laws.
Of course not, Christ makes us righteous to God, by making us like Himself, children to God, with His laws in our hearts, and thus we can fulfill the righteousness of God's laws. Amen.
Of course not, for Christ, the Law Giver, is also, the Life Giver; therefore, life is only through obedience to Christ.
Of course, in the carnal mind, but, as Paul says, not in the spiritual mind; for the spiritual mind can see the righteousness of the law; thus Christians are to be like Christ, we must mortify the flesh, and walk after the Spirit.
Not at all; the law is based on God's word.
Not at all: the old covenant was the former administrator of God's laws, but now, however, Christ is the new Administrator, thus it is now the administration of grace.
Of course, for Christians walk in the Spirit and not the flesh--we mortify the flesh, and walk in the Spirit, and thus the righteousness of the law is indeed fulfilled in us.
Of course, under the old administration, but we are now under the new administration, the administration of grace; and the law is no longer over us, but in us, and thus established by us. Amen.
False: for without the law, grace is completely without meaning; thus, if it were not for the law, there would be no place for grace, therefore, grace is because of the law.
False: gentiles do not come to Christ by the hearing of the law, but by the promise of eternal life: the law has great value to them who had it, but no value to them without, but today, it is within, by the Spirit of Christ, from a preacher's mouth. Amen.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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You all need to stop saying this...you ARE under the law if you sin because sin is the transgression of the law. What you are not under is the CURSE. The curse was nailed to the cross...because He became a curse for us. If there is no law then there is no sin and you have no need of grace.
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Hi pescador,
Thanks for your comments but what is seems like you're saying if you are doing God's will you don't need to worry about Gods laws. If that's what you mean, than you're not really doing the will of God. 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 10:26-27
God's laws and the Holy Spirit are not at odds. We all are required to keep God's laws. Breaking any of them is considered sinning. Romans 7:7, James 2:10-11
If you are doing God's will, you will be obeying God's commandments. 1 John 3:9 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. We are provided the Holy Spirit to help keep God's laws, not break them.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
God bless
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In the Gospel of John Jesus was healing during the Sabbath. The Jews wanted to kill him John 5:18. According to Jewish law healing is work and people who work on the seventh day should be stoned.
Paul argued against the parts of the law and we are not circumcised because of this. There are 26 violations of the law in the Pentateuch/Torah that require the death penalty. One who obeys these disobeys the commandment against murder. Paul commanded his followers to avoid fornication. Premarital sex and prostitution are wrong. Jesus was against anger, murder, lust and adultery.
There is a commandment against giving false testimony. As a Christian I do not argue against this law as Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Honesty is the best policy.
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No letters to keep.
2 Corinthians 3:3
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
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It is a new covenant, God said He would write His laws in our hearts and in our minds. WHAT LAWS? Does it say “I’ll give them a new covenant, and I'm making a new law”?
It says He will write His laws, Gods laws are only found in Exodus 20 and is the first covenant. So laws from the first covenant (God's 10) are transferred over to the New Covenant with better promises. It's still not okay lie, cheat steal, vain His name or break any of God's commandments. Which is made clear by numerous scripture in the New Testament. Read my OP for just a few.
The new covenant is not a different law. It is the same law written in a different place. The old covenant was salvation by faith because even in Old Testament times they all sinned. So God’s saying, “I'm going to make a covenant with you that you might be saved.” We are going to be saved based on forgiveness and faith. The terms of the covenant are the same. God wants us to be saved from sin. What is sin? Breaking God's law. God is not changing the covenant by saying, “I'm throwing out the law.”
Jesus kept all of His Fathers laws and asked us to do the same. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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No it isn't. Doing good on Shabbat is not prohibited. That is why doctors and nurses etc are allowed to work on Shabbat in Israel...pikuach nefesh.
Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
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The Galatians 3 quote is particularly compelling.
Now, let us consider a strange paradox of ecclesiastical history:
In the 5th century, a difference in Christological terminology caused a schism at Chalcedon. In the 11th century, the Chalcedonian churches separated over the issue of papal infallibility vs. the rights of individual bishops within autocephalous synods.
In the 16th century, one of those churches, that being the Roman Catholic Church, was challenged by Martin Luther, and lost control of its dioceses in most of Northern Europe due to the perception of being excessively legalistic.
While three primary denominations emerged (Lutheran, Calvinist, Anglican), and two others were spared (Moravian, Waldensian) there was also a “Radical Reformation” which produced denominations like the Anabaptists. Also there was later a schism between Methodists and Episcopalians and the Church of England, which is very complex and not germane, as far as I can tell, but should greater relevance attach to issues like the Jacobite Rebellion, the Non-Juring Bishops, and so on, we have numerous bona fide Anglicans including one who I did with all sincerity endorse for the episcopate, not that I, a non-conformist, have a say, can explain.
Non-conformists included Puritans, the distant descendants of my denominational heritage, the Quakers, and Baptists, as well as English Presbyterians, and I suppose by law, “north of the Border,” as they say in the UK, Scottish Episcopalians after the triumph of full Calvinist Presbyterianism in the Established Church of Scotland, which had the interesting effect of making the British sovereign the Defender of the Faithful, the Head of the Church of England, and a member in full communion with the very different Church of Scotland. But of most interest were the Baptists and Puritans, because they had been influenced by the Radical Reformation in Germany. So in the New World, as it was then commonly known, it was inevitable that the Non Conformists of Britain and those of the Radical Reformation would in course of time converge, in some cases completely, such as the merger of the Evangelical Reformed and Congregational churches to form the United Church of Christ, which if the OP were written to complain about in its present anomic approach to Christianity, or any of the shrinking mainline Protestant denominations that has capitulated to secular values and media pressure on human sexuality, I would support it. However I sense a wider net has been cast.
In the late 19th and early 20th century, a remnant of a revivalist apocalyptic group known as the Millerites was reorganized, under an individual as charismatic as Martin Luther and certainly more prolific an author. This denomination makes strict Sabbatarian and dietary observance of great importance, and of this I have no objection, but apparently, a very small minority of its members, none of whom are known to me personally (I have known hundreds of Adventists and been greatly aided by some) also seem determined to attack the Roman Catholic Church and all non-Sabbatarian churches, including Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches which had nothing to do with the legalism that Martin Luther complained of, not to mention traditional Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans and other Protestants who are not Sabbatarian.
The paradox is the legalism that Luther accused the Romans of having, which prompted him to advocate several of the Solas, most notably sola scriptura and sola fide, is exhibited when verses in Galatians which appear to contradict certain aspects of Adventist doctrine are ignored yet the importance of sola scriptura is strongly emphasized, by this vocal anti-non-SDA minority.
And I wouldn’t even care, except so many threads are being posted on certain Theology forums on this site when we have other more relevant matters to discuss, like religious freedom and worship practices in the context of the global pandemic, or the impending schism in the United Methodist Church, or the recent and in my opinion glorious victory of the Anglican Diocese of Fort Worth against its former denomination regarding real estate, which could end mainline denominational denial of real estate to departing conservative parishes where there is no longer a shared bond of faith but in some cases a difference vaster than that between traditional Protestantism and traditional Roman Catholicism,
Also, a central claim made very often, that the traditional Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox ignore the ten commandments has been shown false by @BobRyan , an Adventist who I have great respect for who did compile the catechisms of these churches. For the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians is not a license to sin but, among many other things, an explanation of the difference between the exoteric restrictive interpretation of the law of the Mosaic Covenant and the esoteric interpretation, and an exegesis of that and the lightened yoke of the New Covenant.
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- Nov 26, 2019
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If I had read your excellent post I would not have written mine, which approaches the issue at perhaps excessive length from what I consider an amusing paradox of ecclesiastical history, before attempting to summarize all of what you said here in the closing sentence!
Are you yourself a minister or member of the clergy? Your post has a homiletic quality.
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1st Corinthians 11
"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.'
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In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'
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For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes."
+++
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fhansen
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Yes, the difference is that, with the New Covenant we don’t attempt to fulfill the law in order to be right with God, rather, man gets right (reconciled) with God first of all and then He fulfills the law, as outlined in the New Testament, in us. That is to be “under grace”. IOW, the law can’t justify us; only God can.
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GraceBro
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Father, in the name of Jesus, please remove the veil that covers the eyes of those who are under the law. Please show them the difference between a life of flesh management is not what you have called us to. Reveal to them the New Covenant and what it means to have the hope of Christ in them and not the hopelessness of life under the law. Lead them to the end of themselves so they will learn to trust in you and not their disobedience of trying to a life they cannot live. Show them that the sin issue is over between you and us. Allow them to experience your forgiveness so they can have a relationship with you and not your commandments. Take away the religious pride that deceives us into believing we have found a way to be obedient to your laws and makes us lord over other Christians. Let them see that the law is for unbelievers and not Christians. Lead them into your rest. Show them the light yoke you promised. Thank you for your faithfulness and fellowship to us despite our sins and failures. May you be glorified in all of this. Amen!
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Hi Liturgist,
Nice to see you here. I believe we are by what we do, not by what we say. Your statement above that Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox ignore the ten commandments has been shown false. Considering one of the commandments that seems to be altered is God's 4th commandment. Found here Exodus 20:8-11. You can clearly see its been altered by peoples actions. Worshipping God on the first day of the week is not Biblical. There is no scripture in the entire Bible telling us to keep Holy the first day. The Roman Catholic church takes credit for making this change and people should realize when they go to church on Sunday they are obeying a commandment of the Catholic church, not a commandment of God. Just a few quotes.
It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995
This is sort of like when your partner who you claim to love asks you to do A, but you choose to do B C and D. While you think its a nice gesture and you're doing more than what was asked, its still not what your partner asked of you. Don't you think God our Creator and Savior has the right to choose the day we worship Him? He did. Exodus 20 8-11, Isaiah 66:23
God's commdmants are not to be altered. When you start tinkering with God's Word is easy to start following someone other than Him maybe without even realizing it. Jesus warned us about this too.
Mathew 15:8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
God bless
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