Does God love all or some?

Does God love all or some?


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public hermit

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"To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the devious you show yourself shrewd

This passage is telling. If we see God as condemning, then we are shown to be condemning. If we see God as forgiving, then we are shown to be forgiving. If that's true, then the nature of this entire conversation is laid bare.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This passage is telling. If we see God as condemning, then we are shown to be condemning. If we see God as forgiving, then we are shown to be forgiving. If that's true, then the nature of this entire conversation is laid bare.
Not that you don't have it backwards, but yes, the conversation is laid bare. I am accused of positing a cruel God, when I am merely attempting to quote, describe, point to, and explain Scripture and what it teaches. If someone sees a cruel God when God himself says such awful things as 'visiting the father's sins upon his sons, to the 3rd or 4th generation of them that hate him." or "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth", but does not say, "You chose hell of your own autonomous free will, ruining my plans for you.", what am I to think? My God, they claim is cruel.

Yet no doubt they will claim I posit a cruel God, therefore I am the one who sees God as cruel. I do not. He is compassionate beyond anything I can imagine. It is SIN that is so awful, but apparently that doesn't figure into the debate.
 
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Saint Steven

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My God, they claim is cruel.
No. Your God you claim is cruel.
You can't redefine the word cruel to make it not so.
Anyone who incinerates a human being is cruel. This is common sense.
 
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Saint Steven

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"You chose hell of your own autonomous free will, ruining my plans for you."
God's plans are NOT ruined by human behavior. As if he couldn't anticipate that. Seriously?
 
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Saint Steven

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He is compassionate beyond anything I can imagine.
The cosmic tyrant that incinerates humans is compassionate beyond anything you can imagine? Wow. Did you grow up in a death camp or something?
 
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Mark Quayle

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How do I have it backwards?
The passage says, ""To the faithful you show yourself faithful,
to the blameless you show yourself blameless,
26 to the pure you show yourself pure,
but to the devious you show yourself shrewd."

You said, "If we see God as condemning, then we are shown to be condemning. If we see God as forgiving, then we are shown to be forgiving. If that's true, then the nature of this entire conversation is laid bare.

To me it is just the reverse of what the passage says. You apparently mean that if God shows himself faithful to someone, that someone must be a faithful person, since God shows himself faithful to the faithful. Granted that is a possibility, but it doesn't mean that if God is faithful then it follows that he is faithful to only the faithful. After all, all it says is that to the faithful, God shows himself faithful. (and likewise for blameless, pure, and devious.

Another way I could have said this is, you didn't repeat what it said, but extrapolated it. You took what says 'A, therefore B' to mean 'A = B', and concluded that therefore the reverse, B = A, is true.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God's plans are NOT ruined by human behavior. As if he couldn't anticipate that. Seriously?
Ha! This is great! Do you not see I was quoting someone I plainly disagreed with? Does that even begin to resemble what I've been saying all along? NO! It is what people are saying to me! The strawman is becoming weaker all the time. Soon it will disappear altogether.
 
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John Mullally

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The strawman is becoming weaker all the time. Soon it will disappear altogether.
I watched the movie, in the end the strawman got a brain.
 
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Kettriken

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If someone sees a cruel God when God himself says such awful things as 'visiting the father's sins upon his sons, to the 3rd or 4th generation of them that hate him." or "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth", but does not say, "You chose hell of your own autonomous free will, ruining my plans for you.", what am I to think? My God, they claim is cruel.

Forgive me, I've come in at the tail end of this discussion. Mark, are you saying that your biblical references ("visiting the fathers sins..." "wailing and gnashing") are not considered cruel by many, but that the positing, "You chose hell..." is in fact, cruel in your approximation, and not what you believe?
I'm not trying to make a point in this, just clarifying.
 
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Cormack

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Reading some of these replies there’s a theme of excusing incoherent, equivocating and apparently wicked human doctrinal views by use of the absolute authority of God.

The problem is that your philosophy isn’t synonymous with God almighty, Gods unaccountable, no surprise since He’s the one and only being who does the right thing all day everyday.

Your doctrines however are accountable, they’re accountable to Christians, and almost every Christian (Christians guided by the Spirit) finds that you’re wrong about God.

The questions were never (1) “does God do what he pleases?” (2) “Will the judge of all the earth do right?” or even (3) “who are you man to talk back to God?” Those are just stock replies you use when there’s no proper response available.

Rather the questions are direct counters, they’re (1) does inflicting that wailing, gnashing and torment please God? He does all that He pleases, but what does He please?

(2) Is leading people astray only to torment them forever an example of the judge of all the earth doing right, or was that an example of one of mans many foolish philosophies doing a disservice to the good plans and desires of the just judge?

(3) It’s not who are you o man, it’s who is God if he does those awful things to man? Because he can’t be loving.

I know Calvinists in chat love to puff themselves up and answer questions, but I’m not asking them anything. I know their replies better than they do.

I’m not expecting answers to those questions, they’re simply illustrative of the kind of conversation that hmm, Steve, Johnny, myself and Hermit appear to be having. They’re provocative questions that erode hard nosed traditions that have confused themselves for God.

I could ask others but I’ve already exchanged with everybody in the chat who believes in a God who’s loveless and loving, a righteous sin maker who leads us into temptation, they know as well as we do that their beliefs are an absurd contradiction on the face of it.

The vote?

The vote is a fair reflection of Christianity as a whole, the jury’s out, there’s a definitive doctrine believed by Christians worldwide to do with Gods love, and that shared belief is that God has the same kind of love for everyone, no exceptions.

3 people voted God loves some compared to 42 who disagree, and on the street level, outside of message boards and talk of high theology, that number would only grow in favour of the 42 people who voted God loves all.

Their lead would certainly increase and the testimony of Christians everywhere would be heard, in essence, the global church has spoken.

It’s not an argument from voting exactly, but rather it’s about whether or not we value truths that the Spirit has lead the global church into. The Spirit we entrust to lead us into all truth.

The view online and offline is overwhelmingly in favour of Gods love being universal and uniform towards everyone. God loves saints who were sinners, and sinners who will someday be saints.

Even the more common Wesleyan, Arminian, freewill theism type who believes strongly in the reality of an eternal hell also believes that God loves the lost sinner who ultimately ends up there. Gods hand is extended in friendship and love though they freely choose to scorn His mercy.

People can either join up with Christians on this powerful statement of faith or out themselves and divide from us.

imho the people who divide and chat loudly against Gods universal love tend to be some of the biggest tryhard edgelords on the internet. :tearsofjoy:
 
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Hmm

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Agreed. Your obvious expert knowledge has shone a very revealing light on Calvinism and I have no doubt that your analysis and explanations will greatly help anyone who may be struggling with its concepts. An example of what forums at their best can do!
 
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Saint Steven

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Ha! This is great! Do you not see I was quoting someone I plainly disagreed with? Does that even begin to resemble what I've been saying all along? NO! It is what people are saying to me! The strawman is becoming weaker all the time. Soon it will disappear altogether.
Where's the strawman in this discussion?
It seems your only defense against the accusation of cruelty when humans are incinerated is to claim that they really aren't humans, but rather wraiths, being incinerated. And since, in your mind, they have BECOME less than human, it is therefore not cruelty.

Your alternative argument is to reason that if God does it, it can't be cruel, because God is not cruel. In your view he is merely demonstrating his power in justice.
 
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Cormack

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And since, in your mind, they have BECOME less than human, it is therefore not cruelty.

mmhmm, the removal of humanity implies it’s no longer a human who’s being tormented in the fires forever, that’s not a Christian notion. The widely held orthodox position (whether we all agree or not) is that the people who are forever lost are truly human people.

Wraiths :ghost: or vampires or aliens :alien: in hell :fire::fire::fire: doesn’t carry the same painful, sad connotations as human beings tormented in the fires forever.

it’s just more tiresome word games. :sleeping:
 
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Saint Steven

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Where's the strawman in this discussion?
It seems your only defense against the accusation of cruelty when humans are incinerated is to claim that they really aren't humans, but rather wraiths, being incinerated. And since, in your mind, they have BECOME less than human, it is therefore not cruelty.

Your alternative argument is to reason that if God does it, it can't be cruel, because God is not cruel. In your view he is merely demonstrating his power in justice.
The other argument @Mark Quayle has been making has to do with the claim of the utter depravity of humanity. Thus making them DESERVING of eternal conscious torment. As if to ask, "How can that be cruel?" Please correct me if this is a misunderstanding of your position. Thanks.

Frankly, no one deserves eternal conscious torment. If we have any concept of what that truly means. Even a heretic burned at the stake by the Church is done in a matter of minutes. As unthinkable as that cruelty was, it pales in comparison to eternal conscious torment.
 
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Saint Steven

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Frankly, no one deserves eternal conscious torment. If we have any concept of what that truly means. Even a heretic burned at the stake by the Church is done in a matter of minutes. As unthinkable as that cruelty was, it pales in comparison to eternal conscious torment.
And to make matters worse, @Mark Quayle -- our God is then the creator and sustainer of such an instrument of unfathomable pain and suffering. The design of which was a part of his plan for humankind. So, therefore with malice and forethought. That is the implied accusation against God when eternal conscious torment is included. As if God created the ultimate hate machine. And then demands that we love our enemies. What's wrong with this picture?
 
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Cormack

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So, therefore with malice and forethought.

That’s the ticket. :tearsofjoy: The hatred begins with God in Marks theology and extends to mankind later, so Gods will is the source of man and God being at enmity.

What’s the source of enmity and hatred to the garden variety Christian? Our freewill rejection of Gods universal love.
 
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