Contradictions in the Bible?

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Dave L said:
Shun those who walk disorderly. Accept those who repent.

Just as Jesus shunned those who do not treat him as well as He deserved?

Dave L · Feb 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Just as Jesus shunned those who do not treat him as well as He deserved?

Eph 5:71 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:111 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

l Jn 1:61 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Dt 22:101 Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

l Co 5:911 wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Ge 24:3; Dt 7:2-3; 22:10; Jos 23:12; l Sa 5:2-3; l Ki 18:21; Ezr9:2; Ne 13:25; Pr 29:27; Sir 13:17; 1 Mac 1:15; Mt 6:23; 13:41; Jn 12:46; Ac 26:18; 1 Co 1:9; 5:9-10; 6:6; 7:39; 10:21; Eph 5:6-7,11; 1 Jn 1:6

Did Jesus shun the Pharisees?

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Abide with me. said:
In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Forgive an infinite number of times. But be aware that the human will is limited
and that constant exposure to the unrepentant is not good for your soul.
With God, it is possible to live among the unrepentant, with them but not part of them.

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Dave L said:
Eph 5:71
Eph 5:111l Jn 1:61 Dt 22:101l Co 5:911 Ge 24:3; Dt 7:2-3; 22:10; Jos 23:12; l Sa 5:2-3; l Ki 18:21; Ezr9:2; Ne 13:25; Pr 29:27; Sir 13:17; 1 Mac 1:15; Mt 6:23; 13:41; Jn 12:46; Ac 26:18; 1 Co 1:9; 5:9-10; 6:6; 7:39; 10:21; Eph 5:6-7,11; 1 Jn 1:6
Did Jesus shun the Pharisees?

In which passage? I follow what Jesus did and said, and if anyone was an eyewitness they get some credit for having a memory of Him. But nobody gets full credit. God saved people long before people could read.

Dave L · Feb 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Not in any of the passages you provided.

Do you run with the wrong crowd and are trying to justify it?

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Dave L said:
Do you run with the wrong crowd and are trying to justify it?

Till I was six I lived in downtown Chicago.
And I've returned there on occasion the rest of my life.
So yes, I'm justifying my upbringing with what I call fact.

So, did Jesus shun the unrepentant? Where did he do that?

Dave L · Feb 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Till I was six I lived in downtown Chicago.
And I've returned there on occasion the rest of my life.
So yes, I'm justifying my upbringing with what I call fact.

So, did Jesus shun the unrepentant? Where did he do that?

You are now moving the goalposts to win your argument. See ya....

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Eph 5:71 Eph 5:111l Jn 1:61 Dt 22:101l Co 5:911 Ge 24:3; Dt 7:2-3; 22:10; Jos 23:12; l Sa 5:2-3; l Ki 18:21; Ezr9:2; Ne 13:25; Pr 29:27; Sir 13:17; 1 Mac 1:15; Mt 6:23; 13:41; Jn 12:46; Ac 26:18; 1 Co 1:9; 5:9-10; 6:6; 7:39; 10:21; Eph 5:6-7,11; 1 Jn 1:6

Dave L said:
You are now moving the goalposts to win your argument. See ya....

I forgive you. I don't expect you to ever answer.

SkyWriting originally challenged : ↑
Just as Jesus shunned those who do not treat him as well as He deserved?

31 minutes ago#8

Clare73 · Feb 27, 2021

Swag365 said:
Thanks for the explanation. I've had a fair number of conversations with Protestants, but actually haven't run into one who talks of "Fellowship" and "Non-Fellowship" as distinct categories.

What is your understanding of the concept that you refer to as "fellowship"? How would you define that fellowship, or what does it practically entail? It seems that being "out of fellowship" is kind of an abstract term that you use to refer to the state of a "saved" Christian who has willfully and knowingly committed grave sins against God, but who has not yet repented and turned back to the Lord. Generally I would refer to folks such as these as "damned to hell" until they repent and turn back to the Lord.

>>Fellowship can be interrupted, but God has so designed it that it will come to restoration.

OK. I think I understand you. The idea is that for people who are in the "saved" category but who fall out of "fellowship," God will force these people ultimately to repent, so that they are restored to "fellowship" before they die. The folks who do not repent and who do not come back into fellowship, in fact were never in the "saved" category in the first place. Ultimately there is not any significant long-term consequence of being out of fellowship with the Lord, for the saved Christian, because God will inevitably force those people into Heaven. I think this is standard OSAS, but just spoken about in a slightly different way. Is that a fair characterization of your viewpoint?

Very good, except that I would alter "those who do not come back into fellowship" to indicate a question as to their "fellowship" being based in the "inner witness of the Holy Spirit that they are sons of God."

Many use "communion" instead of "fellowship."

atpollard · Feb 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
I forgive you. I don't expect you to ever answer.

You are not being honest in this discussion. That is not very Christian of you.

You did indeed throw down the challenge that he refused to answer in your earlier post:

SkyWriting said:
SkyWriting originally challenged : ↑
Just as Jesus shunned those who do not treat him as well as He deserved?

Unfortunately, your response clearly misrepresents the original comment that you quoted and were responding to:

Dave L said:
Shun those who walk disorderly. Accept those who repent.

Dave L claimed that we should shun those that walk “disorderly” (which in the context of the verses already presented about going to your brother, bringing two witnesses, and calling the matter before the church indicates that we are speaking of a Christian living in willful sin and refusing to repent).
Can you honestly claim that this is not taught in Scripture?

You have, in contrast, twisted his statement into something about “Jesus shunning” (he said nothing about Jesus shunning, rather he was speaking about a command to the church) and you changed the object of the shunning from a Christian living in open sin and refusing to repent, to anyone that failed to treat GOD INCARNATE with proper respect.

From the sidelines, it very much appears that you have indeed “moved the goalposts” to win the argument.

**********

To answer your question about Jesus:

No, he did not shun them ... he got right in their face and told them they were going to Hell.

[Matthew 23:13-36 NASB]
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, [that] is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.' 17 "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, [that] is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.' 19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears [both] by the altar and by everything on it. 21 "And whoever swears by the temple, swears [both] by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22 "And whoever swears by heaven, swears [both] by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, 'If we had been [living] in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in [shedding] the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure [of the guilt] of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you may fall [the guilt of] all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Halbhh · Feb 27, 2021

Abide with me. said:
In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Perhaps you got great answers already, but the key 2 things are:

1) we forgive, fully (no matter what)

2) we only allow someone back into a particular privileged situation (trust) who has clearly repented.

Example: Ralph steals my pencil, and won't return it, etc. I forgive Ralph fully, and love him. I put pencils away when Ralph is near, but I continue to love Ralph.

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

atpollard said:
You are not being honest in this discussion. That is not very Christian of you.

Your analysis of my Christianity is not something you could know.
I forgive you.

PaulCyp1 · Feb 27, 2021

No contradiction. These passages simply say that we cannot withhold forgiveness from anyone who sincerely repents, but that those who do not repent cannot be forgiven.

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

atpollard said:
You are not being honest in this discussion.

I don't expect you to know.

Clare73 · Feb 27, 2021

PaulCyp1 said:
No contradiction. These passages simply say that we cannot withhold forgiveness from anyone who sincerely repents, but that those who do not repent cannot be forgiven.

That is read into the passages, not out of them.

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

Dave L said:
You are now moving the goalposts to win your argument. See ya....

In which passage?

atpollard · Feb 27, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Your analysis of my Christianity is not something you could know.
I forgive you.

SkyWriting said:
I don't expect you to know.

[Matthew 7:16-20 NASB]
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

PaulCyp1 said:
No contradiction. These passages simply say that we cannot withhold forgiveness from anyone who sincerely repents, but that those who do not repent cannot be forgiven.

Thankfully, not supported.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 6:27
“But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespass

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven

SkyWriting · Feb 27, 2021

atpollard said:
[Matthew 7:16-20 NASB]
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Not cut down by you though. You have no axes. No fire.
But you can keep trying.

dqhall · Feb 27, 2021

Abide with me. said:
In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Matthew 9:9 As Jesus passed by from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax collection office. He said to him, “Follow me.” He got up and followed him. 10 As he sat in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw it, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 When Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are healthy have no need for a physician, but those who are sick do. 13 But you go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ Hosea 6:6 for I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Jesus was able to dine with tax collectors and sinners as he was not corrupted by their errors, but taught them righteousness.

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