Albion

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Scripture tells us God will, can, and does, use anyone for his purposes.
That's very true, and one thing we see in the verses which refer to that fact is that God does not treat all people exactly the same.

Some are chosen for a certain purpose and others for different assignments. For example, all the women from Scripture whom you mentioned in your post were important in God's work, but not a single one of them was chosen by him to be a pastor.
 
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Kilk1

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There are basically two questions:

Can women preach/teach/etc?
Can women be pastors?

This is an important distinction to make, because one does not need to be an ordained member of the clergy in order to preach and teach. And, in fact, all throughout the history of the Christian Church there have been valiant, brave women of faith who have defended the faith, proclaimed the faith, and taught the faith.

We have, for example, in St. Paul's epistle to the Romans the mention of several women who were at varying levels of ministry and work. The following is Romans 16:1-16

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.

The ESV here translates the word used as "servant", but the Greek is quite less ambiguous. It calls her a διάκονον (diakonon), a deacon.

And yes, female deacons--sometimes called deaconesses--have been a thing in Christianity since antiquity. Though these things seem to have fluctuated a bit depending on time and place.

St. Phoebe the Deacon was, based on Paul's words here, a patron of the church. That is, she was probably a widow with some money, in the early days of Christianity wealthy widows often used their wealth to turn their villas and homes into places of worship. An example of this can be seen at the archeological site at Dura-Europa in Syria, in which a house had been modified for Christian worship, including a built-in baptismal font to conduct baptisms in, and a dedicated space for the Liturgy.

Whether or not St. Phoebe was a deacon in a more generalized sense, or in the more technical sense is open to debate. That women were called deacons is clear, what is less clear is exactly what sorts of ecclesiastical duties this would have encompassed.



Here, again, St. Paul mentions a woman, St. Prisca and her husband St. Aquila. And he calls this married couple his "fellow workers in Christ". And, again, we see that they were patrons of a church. What exactly was their work is probably unclear, but that Paul calls both of them "fellow workers" shouldn't be glossed over. Neither should it be glossed over that the Apostle names Prisca, the wife, before her husband Aquila.



The Apostle again mentions a woman, this time by the name of Mary. We know less about her than many others mentioned here. Attempts to identify her with other persons named Mary are tenuous at best. But yet, she was clearly very important for Paul to mention her here.



The ESV here renders the language as "well known to the apostles", but the Greek text says, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, "who are noteworthy among the apostles". In modern times some have attempted to downplay this, suggesting that they were simply well known to the apostles (hence the rendering by the ESV here); but according to the ancient fathers of the Church there was no confusion: Andronicus and Junia were apostles.

In fact St. John Chrysostom himself goes to great lengths to proclaim just how incredible and noteworthy it is, that a woman here is counted among the apostles--an honor that cannot be understated.

Sts. Andronicus and Junia were apostles. We should remember that in addition to the Twelve Apostles, and St. Paul, there were a large number of other apostles, some of whom Scripture mentions explicitly such as Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus, and Junia; but tradition remembers the "Seventy Apostles" though exhaustive lists differ on names here.



Paul continues to list many both men and women as fellow workers, ministers in Christ, doing Christ's work in, through, and for the Church.

Here alone should give us all the indication we need that the Apostle never condemned women from holding a position to teach. And, in fact, Scripture explicitly speaks of a woman teacher of the faith. Specifically St. Priscilla and her husband Aquila (this is the same couple mentioned in Romans 16 above). They taught a student of John the Baptist, Apollos of Alexandria, in the way of Christ. This is the same Apollos the Apostle mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament.

So time and again St. Paul praises women for their work in ministry and the church, as teachers, preachers, fellow ministers.

And even outside of this, we have for example the tradition of St. Paul's missionary companion St. Thekla, who is not mentioned in the New Testament, but was well known from tradition since the earliest days of the Church. We have the stories of great women of faith, such as Sts. Felicity and Perpetua. We have the story of St. Felicitas of Rome, a mother of seven sons who worked together in preaching the Gospel right in the heart of the Roman Empire--and who were all arrested and eventually suffered a martyr's death. It was St. Felicitas' great courage and strength that held them together, and it held her together as she was forced to watch each of her children put to death for refusing to recant and renounce Christ. Until she too, in the end, received her crown.

So given the preponderance of biblical material, the idea that St. Paul forbid any woman from teaching any man, or forbid any woman from preaching or speaking in the context of worship (elsewhere St. Paul explicitly mentions women preaching in Church, see 1 Corinthians ch. 11) simply does not work.

This is the reason why arguably most exegetes today understand that what is being discussed in those passages in 1 Corinthians 14 and in 1 Timothy are very specific circumstances.

1 Corinthians 14 is talking about the need for order in worship, and likewise in 1 Timothy the Apostle seems to be speaking about a unique situation where certain women were trying to overthrow those already commissioned in the church. The word that is used in 1 Timothy 2:12 is αὐθεντεῖν (authentein), which gets translated variously as "have authority" or "usurp authority". It's a peculiar word, used only once in the entire New Testament, here in 1 Timothy 2:12. It very often means to take authority by force, even violently--such as when one kills a king and claims thekingdom for himself.

That's important, because Paul isn't saying, "Women can't have any authority over men", but that forcefully taking authority, making oneself the authority, trying to usurp authority is the problem. And just to be clear, this isn't a sex/gender issue; as though it's wrong for a woman to do that, but okay for a man. It would be just as wrong for a man to usurp and assert his own authority over and against the rightful authority and structure in the Church. Because the Church is supposed to have good order, there are processes and protocols and systems in place for how to have pastors, presbyters, bishops, etc.

If you were to proclaim yourself the new pastor of your church, trying to depose the current pastor--that would be a violation of the good order of the Church and the act of a schismatic. If there is a pastor who shouldn't be a pastor--through abuse, teaching false doctrine, etc, there are ways to go about disciplining and even removing offending clergy. Propping oneself up is wrong--pastors are not lords, but servants of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks for the reply! Of course, the term diakonos is used many times in the Scriptures, sometimes referring to the office of deacon and other times just referring to a servant in general. I'm not sure if "of note among the apostles" means they're one of the apostles or that, among the apostles, they're noteworthy. Either way, they're significant, and the Bible certainly is favorable to women. In fact, they're the first ones to have said Jesus is risen. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can't be a universal prohibition of women teaching but must have a limited context. As a balance, the passage definitely teaches something, so the question is what that context is.

Would it be sound exegesis to say that whatever "keep silent" (4601 sigao) means in 1 Corinthians 14:34 is what the term means in 1 Corinthians 14:28 and 1 Corinthians 14:30? Also, would the same principle apply to "speak" (2980 laleo) in the chapter? Thanks!
 
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Kilk1

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Pastor Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel, taught does scriptures have been misunderstood. In his studies, he refers to the times of those days; when women sit on one side and men sit on the other. The women had the tendency to interrupt, asking personal questions of their husbands, questioning the teaching or just alright gossiping, disturbing the meetings.
There were women that Paul upheld greatly:
Aquila, Priscilla who had Church in their homes 1st Corinthians 16:19.
Phebe, Paul told the church to receive her Romans 16:1-4.
Junia, Romans 6:15.
Euodia & Syntche, Paul asked that they help these women who labor with him in the gospel, Philippians 4:2-3.

In the Old Testament God use Deborah to rule Israel. God had female Prophets Miriam - Exodus 15:20 _
Hulda - 2nd Kings 22:14 _
Naudial - Nehemiah 6:14_
Unnamed female prophet - Isaiah 8:3 Anna - Luke 2:26.
Scripture tells us God will, can, and does, use anyone for his purposes.
Thanks for the reply! The Bible certainly is favorable to women. In fact, they're the first ones to have said Jesus is risen. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can't be a universal prohibition of women teaching but must have a limited context. As a balance, the passage definitely teaches something, so the question is what that context is.

Would you say it'd be sound exegesis to say that whatever "keep silent" (4601 sigao) means in 1 Corinthians 14:34 is what the term means in 1 Corinthians 14:28 and 1 Corinthians 14:30? Also, would the same principle apply to "speak" (2980 laleo) in the chapter? Thanks!
 
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Sheila Davis

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Thanks for the reply! The Bible certainly is favorable to women. In fact, they're the first ones to have said Jesus is risen. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can't be a universal prohibition of women teaching but must have a limited context. As a balance, the passage definitely teaches something, so the question is what that context is.

Would you say it'd be sound exegesis to say that whatever "keep silent" (4601 sigao) means in 1 Corinthians 14:34 is what the term means in 1 Corinthians 14:28 and 1 Corinthians 14:30? Also, would the same principle apply to "speak" (2980 laleo) in the chapter? Thanks!
I don't study the Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, Greek, language that's scripture was written in during points of time. So you can write any of those languages down I would have no idea what they actually mean.
My opinion of 1st Corinthians 14:28 what is the point of speaking if you don't have an interpreter to interpret your language. You speak Greek, I speak Roman, I don't understand Greek - so what's the point?
1st Corinthians 14:30 something is revealed to a person, don't interrupt the meetings by blurting it out, keep your mouth closed until the appropriate time.
1st Corinthians 14:34 goes back to my initial comment. In a few words don't interrupt in meetings. Commanded to be under obedience to who? God and God only? To blindly obey a husband might lead you to hell.
1st Corinthians 14:23 when the word speak is used - it's not referring to them all speaking at one time it's referring to them speaking in different languages and if an unlearned came in and heard this, they would think that they're crazy because nobody can understand each other. The gift of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, is the universal language, the *first language,* the language of the angels, that all men regardless of what language they speak - will understand.

Sound exegesis - meaning simple explanation or critical analysis. No I do not feel the same reasoning I gave can be apply to general speaking of one as written in verse 23 and simular versus - and the not speaking in the versus you gave.
 
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Sheila Davis

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That's very true, and one thing we see in the verses which refer to that fact is that God does not treat all people exactly the same.

Some are chosen for a certain purpose and others for different assignments. For example, all the women from Scripture whom you mentioned in your post were important in God's work, but not a single one of them was chosen by him to be a pastor.

I can't prove that there were any women pastors then, but you can't prove that there wasn't. You can only give a couple of scriptures one of which would be 1st Timothy 2:12 women should not usurp authority over a man.
God appointed women to prophesied and use the title Prophetess, he can appoint and may have appointed women pastors - but man being who he was, and can be said, still is - refused to give them that recognition. Look at what man did to Jesus - look at how the Pharisees and Sadducees did and didn't do - look at what the church itself has done for centuries and try to cover up. Look at what the churches are doing now. Men felt women were their subordinates and it was well practice then.

But that's then this is now!

Jeremiah 31:22 how long wilt thou go about, old back siding daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing in the Earth, a woman shall Compass a man. Compass : 1) to go around; make a circuit of 2) encompass (sense) 3) to grasp mentally; understand; comprehend; 4) to reach successfully, achieve, accomplish.
 
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Albion

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I can't prove that there were any women pastors then, but you can't prove that there wasn't.

If all of the evidence indicates that there were none, there isn't much of an argument that can be made on behalf of the idea that there really were women pastors.

But the outcome is not just that simple. You actually reviewed a lot of the evidence for us and in so doing showed that women were functioning as prophets, emissaries, convenors, etc. etc. but not as pastors.

The conspicuous absence of any women pastors, after your look at all of that background information, coupled with the Scriptural evidence, Christ's own decision-making, and more, only serves to strengthen the conclusion that God chose, for whatever reasons, to have male pastors.
 
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Sheila Davis

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If all of the evidence indicates that there were none, there isn't much of an argument that can be made on behalf of the idea that there really were women pastors.

But the outcome is not just that simple. You actually reviewed a lot of the evidence for us and in so doing showed that women were functioning as prophets, emissaries, convenors, etc. etc. but not as pastors.

The conspicuous absence of any women pastors, after your look at all of that background information, coupled with the Scriptural evidence, Christ's own decision-making, and more, only serves to strengthen the conclusion that God chose, for whatever reasons, to have male pastors.

Evidence? That's what atheist use requiring Christians to prove the existence of God or to even prove that Christ walked the Earth. They ask for evidence to prove there was a flood, evidence to prove that the Hebrews were actually enslaved in Egypt. There is no tangible evidence of those things - even what is written in the Bible.

Even suggesting there is no evidence, and you use the word written, is suggesting that atheist too, are right with their assumptions, beliefs and lack of belief.
So since there isn't any written females named under the head of pastoralship, there is no evidence.
Then where does it stand with Acts 10:34 _ Romans 2:11_ James 2:9 but if you have respect to persons, you commit sin and are convinced of the law as transgressors ....... How can one be told that God does not show favoritism and to show favoritism it's a sin, and the church displays favoritism and respect towards men and the opposite towards woman, that's why atheist have a problem with believing scripture. Please don't say those scriptures are concerning salvation - favoritism is favoritism in all aspects.

Now, I wasn't there, I don't know, for me it's not important.

People have their own understanding, that's why we have so many different denominations, and within those denominations different theologies.

Differences which cannot be settled. Thanks, for a Christian conversation.
 
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Albion

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Evidence? That's what atheist use requiring Christians to prove the existence of God or to even prove that Christ walked the Earth.
That's not correct. What you presented earlier in this thread and which you took from both history and scripture is evidence. That's what I was referring to. You thought it proved your point about women as pastors, so you were using it as evidence. Unfortunately, it proved the opposite.

So since there isn't any written females named under the head of pastoralship, there is no evidence.
What a peculiar idea that is! The evidence showed no women pastors. That IS evidence, and it is evidence from Scripture. It shows us all sorts of things but conspicuously absent from all of that is any instance of a woman pastor.

How can one be told that God does not show favoritism and to show favoritism it's a sin, and the church displays favoritism and respect towards men and the opposite towards woman, that's why atheist have a problem with believing scripture.
You're claiming it's favoritism. Historic Christianity takes the word of God for being what God wills and intends. He had a "chosen people," the Jews. Was God, therefore, playing favorites in a way that we, his followers, cannot tolerate? I don't think so! God saved a few people from the Great Flood and from the destruction he wrought on Sodom, didn't he? So was that impermissible "favoritism" on God's part?

In addition, we have New Testament verses that explicitly teach that God selects roles for each of us in his church that are like the legs, the brain, and the heart, etc. all working together for the body. But they aren't all the same!
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for the reply! Of course, the term diakonos is used many times in the Scriptures, sometimes referring to the office of deacon and other times just referring to a servant in general. I'm not sure if "of note among the apostles" means they're one of the apostles or that, among the apostles, they're noteworthy. Either way, they're significant, and the Bible certainly is favorable to women. In fact, they're the first ones to have said Jesus is risen. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can't be a universal prohibition of women teaching but must have a limited context. As a balance, the passage definitely teaches something, so the question is what that context is.

Would it be sound exegesis to say that whatever "keep silent" (4601 sigao) means in 1 Corinthians 14:34 is what the term means in 1 Corinthians 14:28 and 1 Corinthians 14:30? Also, would the same principle apply to "speak" (2980 laleo) in the chapter? Thanks!

In the sense that there is supposed to be orderliness in worship, without any room for showmanship. And, of course, with the historic Liturgy this isn't really a problem. As there are times when the people speak, and times when they keep silent.

When the pastor is giving the homily, or speaking the Words of Institution, or any other of their pastoral ministerial obligations, we keep silence to hear the word of God and give reverence to the gifts of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Sheila Davis

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That's not correct. What you presented earlier in this thread and which you took from both history and scripture is evidence. That's what I was referring to. You thought it proved your point about women as pastors, so you were using it as evidence. Unfortunately, it proved the opposite.


What a peculiar idea that is! The evidence showed no women pastors. That IS evidence, and it is evidence from Scripture. It shows us all sorts of things but conspicuously absent from all of that is any instance of a woman pastor.


You're claiming it's favoritism. Historic Christianity takes the word of God for being what God wills and intends. He had a "chosen people," the Jews. Was God, therefore, playing favorites in a way that we, his followers, cannot tolerate? I don't think so! God saved a few people from the Great Flood and from the destruction he wrought on Sodom, didn't he? So was that impermissible "favoritism" on God's part?

In addition, we have New Testament verses that explicitly teach that God selects roles for each of us in his church that are like the legs, the brain, and the heart, etc. all working together for the body. But they aren't all the same!
I only read the first sentence and stopped not interested and what you say. I never said you were Incorrect and don't appreciate you telling me I'm incorrect. Not one single solitary thing I said was incorrect. And to be frank Again - there is no proof that women were not pastors. Now you keep on writing I'm not reading anything else you say.
 
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Albion

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I only read the first sentence and stopped not interested and what you say.

Yeah. I was getting that feeling.

And to be frank Again - there is no proof that women were not pastors.

Imagine what other innovations the mind of man might have come up with over the centuries and made into Christian doctrines...excepting only those which God had explicitly said "no" to in Scripture. :idea:
 
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Yeah. I was getting that feeling.



Imagine what other innovations the mind of man might have come up with over the centuries and made into Christian doctrines...excepting only those which God had explicitly said "no" to in Scripture. :idea:

True, there's all kinds of innovations the mind of man can come up with in relation to the Bible and what any one of us thinks about it when reading it. However, even with this being a constant potentiality we all need to hedge against when interpreting our Sacred texts, we also need to always keep in mind that none of the Scriptures were written in social vacuums, untethered from any extrabiblical and cultural contexts of the place and time in which they were written.

I think this goes even for the women's issues that are being addressed in this thread. If might not be enough to simply read the texts from Paul we have and assume that we actually and fully understand all of those things we think he said in relation to women.

While I don't think that the ratio of leadership in the early church between men and women was necessarily proportional, we can't just drop anchor and tell ourselves that women should never really be leaders within the church. So, sure, we might expect to see less women become pastors in the Church, maybe quite a few less even, but we at the least still need to confront the fact that 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 have been unfairly used to suppress women within the Church or in larger society for reasons that Paul didn't intend.
 
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Albion

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True, there's all kinds of innovations the mind of man can come up with in relation to the Bible and what any one of us thinks about it when reading it. However, even with this being a constant potentiality we all need to hedge against when interpreting our Sacred texts, we also need to always keep in mind that none of the Scriptures were written in social vacuums, untethered from any extrabiblical and cultural contexts of the place and time in which they were written.

I think this goes even for the women's issues that are being addressed in this thread. If might not be enough to simply read the texts from Paul we have and assume that we actually and fully understand all of those things we think he said in relation to women.

However, the idea of male pastors is not based solely upon Paul's writings; also, we do know that some of Paul's admonitions were personal and take that into account.

With that in mind, the issue here is not really a candidate for being changed simply because of evolving social standards in some cultures but not others. That fact should immediately cast doubt on the idea of altering a 2000 year old principle that is rooted in various verses of Holy Scripture and in Holy Tradition and in secular history as well.
 
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However, the idea of male pastors is not based solely upon Paul's writings; also, we do know that some of Paul's admonitions were personal and take that into account.

With that in mind, the issue here is not really a candidate for being changed simply because of evolving social standards in some cultures but not others. That fact should immediately cast doubt on the idea of altering a 2000 year old principle that is rooted in various verses of Holy Scripture and in Holy Tradition and in secular history as well.

Honestly, I think that in looking at what Paul is saying, he's NOT emphatically indicating that Christian women should never be leaders--or even occasionally pastors--in the Church. ... and I'm not sure I even agree with John Stott on this issue, frankly.


[edit previous typo!!!]
 
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Albion

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Why so? I think you are referring to the "keep silent in church" stuff and the idea of wives submitting to their husbands.

Neither of those carries any weight in the major churches, both Catholic and Protestant, that do not ordain women. Some of these have women in various leadership positions. And yet, for Scriptural reasons, they do not ordain women.
 
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Why so? I think you are referring to the "keep silent in church" stuff and the idea of wives submitting to their husbands.
Yeah, that part comes into it for sure, but I also take into account that there's a lot of historical contrivances on both sides of the issue in history. Little of what was said either for or against the value of women's roles in the Church post 1st century is anything that is authoritative enough or substantive enough for us to speak with finality on the issue---at least not to my mind, it isn't.

Neither of those carries any weight in the major churches, both Catholic and Protestant, that do not ordain women. Some of these have women in various leadership positions. And yet, for Scriptural reasons, they do not ordain women.
And what are some of those Scriptural reasons outside of 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14? Personally, I'm not really seeing them (which isn't, of course, to say that I'm audacious enough to assert the possibility that I couldn't be wrong in my hermeneutics).
 
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Albion

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Yeah, that part comes into it for sure, but I also take into account that there's a lot of historical contrivances on both sides of the issue in history. Little of what was said either for or against the value of women's roles in the Church post 1st century is anything that is authoritative enough or substantive enough for us to speak with finality on the issue---at least not to my mind, it isn't.

And what are some of those Scriptural reasons outside of 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14? Personally, I'm not really seeing them (which isn't, of course, to say that I'm audacious enough to assert the possibility that I couldn't be wrong in my hermeneutics).
I hate to say this to a good friend like yourself, but this issue has been debated and debated again a number of times on CF and everything that can be said has been said. I need to leave the internet at this time and I just am not up to restating all of that.

Suffice it to say, for the moment anyway, that there are a BUNCH of Scripture-based reasons for keeping the clergy male, against which there are only two main arguments for changing: 1) God loves everyone, period! and 2) today's society thinks equality is fair so the church has to accept that as God's new thinking on the matter. Seriously.
 
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I hate to say this to a good friend like yourself, but this issue has been debated and debated again a number of times on CF and everything that can be said has been said. I need to leave the internet at this time and I just am not up to restating all of that.

Suffice it to say, for the moment anyway, that there are a BUNCH of Scripture-based reasons for keeping the clergy male, against which there are only two main arguments for changing: 1) God loves everyone, period! and 2) today's society thinks equality is fair so the church has to accept that as God's new thinking on the matter. Seriously.

Ok, no problem. We'll just leave it at that. Besides, it's not like I haven't written on this or related aspects of it elsewhere here on CF already.

Have a blessed day, bro! :cool:
 
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Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

These were not "Early churches" or "Young churches". All the letters were to INFANT church groups and not one had the completed Bible.

Grown-up
churches treat people by the second of two rules:

Matthew 22:39
And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.”

So discriminating by gender choice is not an option.
 
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