A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Phil.2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Yes "Jesus" is the name for God the Son after the incarnation.

Dave L said:

If someone taps you on the shoulder, you believe they did because of the experience. You do not need to choose to believe someone tapped you on the shoulder. So it is with believing in Christ. You experience the New Birth (fruit of the Spirit) and that causes you to believe in him. It's an experience, not a blind work of the flesh.

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1. you experience the supernatural "drawing of all mankind" done by Christ through the Holy Spirit. John 12:32
2. You choose to believe and confess Rom 10:9-10
3. The result is that you are a born again forgiven child of God according to Romans 10

BobRyan said:

1. you experience the supernatural "drawing of all mankind" done by Christ through the Holy Spirit. John 12:32
2. You choose to believe and confess Rom 10:9-10
3. The result is that you are a born again forgiven child of God according to Romans 10

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If you ever experience the New Birth, it's entirely different from what you think. Your heart wells up with the fruit of the Spirit that causes you to believe.

Dave L said:

If you ever experience the New Birth, it's entirely different from what you think.

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I don't follow the logic in that statement.

Did you mean to say - " when you experience the New Birth, you find that it's entirely different from what you thought before" ??

BobRyan said:

I don't follow the logic in that statement.

Did you mean to say - " when you experience the New Birth, you find that it's entirely different from what you thought before" ??

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Christ is an experience producing the fruit of the Spirit (including faith) in a person's heart. This causes them to believe and live a holy lifestyle.

Clare73 said:

Sanctification requires obedience. There is no sanctification of habitual sin.

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Indeed. I am for overcoming grievous sin or mortal sin. I am for 2 Corinthians 7:1 that says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Norbert L said:

Here's another time that Paul was questioning himself about his success and the will of Jesus. "I went up because of a revelation and
set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles,
in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain." Galatians 2:2

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In light of the problem of Judaizers coming out of Jerusalem, would his setting "before them the gospel I preach among the Gentiles" be his getting the apostles to stand firm on the gospel of grace to neutralize the Judaizers and "make sure" they were not destroying his work among the Gentiles?

Have you ever had one of those moments where you just weren't sure?

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zoidar said:

With remdeemed I meant the moment of regeneration, where you are born again, saved. I guess it's also how you use the words. When I say atonement I mean what happened on the cross. When I say redeemed I mean what happend to us when receiving the atonement.

What do you mean you have to find out if you are among the chosen? Doesn't the Bible say if you are born again you are chosen?

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You ask, "What do you mean you have to find out if you are among the chosen?" I did not say that. I said that he need NOT find out if he is chosen in order to be among the chosen

But to avoid derailing the course of my question --as to what you were referring to by "saved" in post #81, where you say, "Hm, the meaning of particular redemption sounds unclear though. I could say I believe in unlimited atonement, yet a person is not redeemed until he is saved. Wouldn't that also be particular redemption?." You have answered by saying that you had been referring to the moment of regeneration. So I am left wondering what you are getting at with, "wouldn't that also be particular redemption?".

A person, any person, IF REDEEMED, is redeemed at the cross. The payment is made by Christ's death and when Christ died. That does not mean he is therefore not lost, but it does mean the payment was made at that point.

However, even if you are right and the redemption does not happen until regeneration, in the end it is no different concerning Particular Redemption --ONLY those God has chosen for his display of, and use of, mercy upon some, and his awful justice carried out upon their substitute, will receive that mercy, and the payment is ONLY for their debt.

No matter what theoretical or rhetorical or abstract constructions one may come up with, such as 'Provisional Atonement', are constructs to ease the human mind. In the end it makes no sense, (nor is it Biblical), to say that Christ actually paid for the sins of absolutely everyone who ever lived or will live, if some of them end up paying for the sin themselves.

Dave L said:

Christ is an experience producing the fruit of the Spirit (including faith) in a person's heart.

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which enables them to accept the Gospel, repent and then God causes the new birth.

The supernatural drawing of God of all mankind John 12:32 "enables" the choice that depravity disables.

zoidar said:

Sorry I missed your "not". Sometimes I believe I might be a bit dyslectic, no diagnose though, but I was a quite late reader.

The Bible does not say that the atonement was for some. Atonement was made for the human race. Can you show me where the Bible says the atonement was for some?

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1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and NOT FOR OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - NIV

BobRyan said:

which enables them to accept the Gospel, repent and then God causes the new birth.

The supernatural drawing of God of all mankind John 12:32 "enables" the choice that depravity disables.

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The new birth comes first, then faith and repentance.
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

Clare73 said:

In light of the problem of Judaizers coming out of Jerusalem, would his setting "before them the gospel I preach among the Gentiles" be his getting the apostles to stand firm on the gospel of grace to neutralize the Judaizers and "make sure" they were not destroying his work among the Gentiles?

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Like in Paul was going to go to Jerusalem and have another moment with Peter as he did in Antioch?

We do have the story of what happened in Jerusalem (Acts 15). What do you think about what happened there? Paul and Peter weren't highlighted in the same way as they were in Paul's recollection of the incident.

zoidar said:

Sorry I missed your "not". Sometimes I believe I might be a bit dyslectic, no diagnose though, but I was a quite late reader.

The Bible does not say that the atonement was for some. Atonement was made for the whole human race. Can you show me where the Bible says the atonement was for some?

Please don't say Jesus died for his sheep. Of course he did. He atoned the human race for the sake of the sheep.

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There are so many to whom I have replied I forget to whom I have or have not said what. I had hoped I had already gone with you through some of the passages that are commonly taken to support Unlimited Atonement, and/or had gone through a logical progression to demonstrate Particular Redemption, and/or had shown Biblical support/demonstration of Particular Redemption.

So:

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:28 -- Note it doesn't say, 'all', but 'many'. --as to logic, please take the time to read this: Particular Redemption by C. H. Spurgeon

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," Ephesians 5:25

"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:21

"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

(There are many, many more, quite a few of which, like 1 Timothy 4:10, are verses taken to support Unlimited Atonement, but which on further study (exegesis) turn out to be very strong statements of Particular Redemption. See: What Does the Bible Say About Limited Atonement? (just for starters).)

Norbert L said:

Like in Paul was going to go to Jerusalem and have another moment with Peter as he did in Antioch?

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No, as in Ac 11:27-30, to take the gift of the disciples for the Judeans to Jerusalem.

We do have the story of what happened in Jerusalem (Acts 15). What do you think about what happened there?
Paul and Peter weren't highlighted in the same way as they were in Paul's recollection of the incident.

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Might have something to do with Ac 15 not being the incident of Gal 2:2.

Dave L said:

The new birth comes first, then faith and repentance.

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No such thing as a born again saint who is not saved, not forgiven and without Christ.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The result of believing and confession is that salvation experience - new birth.

2 Cor 5:
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

First they believe and confess - then they are an in-Christ born-again Christian

Notice the sequence

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me

Until the sinner hears and opens the door - he/she is not "with Christ" , not born again , not "in Christ" not a new creation.

BobRyan said:

No such thing as a born again saint who is not saved, not forgiven and without Christ.

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The result of believing and confession is that salvation experience - new birth.

2 Cor 5:
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

First they believe and confess - then they are an in-Christ born-again Christian

Notice the sequence

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me

Until the sinner hears and opens the door - he/she is not "with Christ" , not born again , not "in Christ" not a new creation.

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The New Birth IS salvation. It produces new spiritual life and faith. You cannot believe unless you are saved.

Dave L said:

The new birth comes first, then faith and repentance.
“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

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BobRyan said:

No such thing as a born again saint who is not saved, not forgiven and without Christ.

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Dave L is not saying there is such a thing as a born-again saint who is not saved, not forgiven, not without Christ. He is not referring to time, but to sequential causation. One in whom the Holy Spirit has not taken up residence is neither saved, repentant nor in Christ. Such have no salvific faith. Your take on what he said was mistaken.

Mark Quayle said:

He is not referring to time, but to sequential causation. .

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Turns out - you can't have a sequence without time.