Equality Act

Aldebaran said:

No guard needed. Just a woman there to complain that she doesn't feel comfortable in the same restroom where a man just entered and is staring at her. But pass a law, and the man no longer is told to leave. Instead, the woman is labeled as transphobic.

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I can see you've been thinking about this a lot.

Aldebaran said:

The bathroom just makes it much easier, just as locker rooms do.

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Women bathrooms all have stalls around the toilets, so how much easier is it?

Based on that men have more to worry about with urinal stalls than women.

Aldebaran said:

More concerned about straight males knowing they can demand to be called female so they can be allowed to enter the women's restrooms and commit whatever sex crime they would then be given access to do to his daughter.

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That would be quite an extreme elaborate way to do something.

So they follow some laws but not others.
They won't go into the toilet until there is a law providing a loop hole for them, then when they are there they will be committing this crime of attacking young girls???

I mean, if they are going to commit rape and assault, but they are worried about trespass?
It doesn't make sense.

Aldebaran said:

a man just entered and is staring at her.

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Why is he staring at her?
Do people generally stare at each other in the restrooms?

Yes, all those straight men who are just clamoring to be labeled as trans so that they can assault women in bathrooms...definitely a thing that takes place in reality and not in the overheated imaginations of some people.
Ringo

Aldebaran said:

They wouldn't have to commit a physical assault right away. Going into the restrooms allows them to engage in voyeurism and whatever else they want. The women who feel uncomfortable with that happening would have to accept the label of "transphobic" and stay silent about it.

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Remembering the uni-sex change rooms that already existed in my childhood, I have to wonder if this isn't rather a problem with the overly puritan attitude that so many Americans have towards nudity.

Or, if you prefer that attitude and want to keep it for whatever reasons: a problem with the American approach to restrooms.

Quite amusing to think that Germany does it better in both ways... nudity AND privacy.

Supreme Court asked to declare the all-male military draft unconstitutional

The Supreme Court has been asked to rule on whether women should be required to enroll for the draft. I imagine they may wait to take it up until they see what the Senate does on this bill.

Would the equality act make the provision where only males have to enroll with selective services illegal?

iluvatar5150 said:

Your claims of "mental illness" could conceivably fall under that banner -if- you buttressed your arguments with something more than blind conjecture.

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I suppose on that note doesn't the DSM V still refer to Gender Dysphoria as disorder? They changed the designation from Gender Identity Disorder, but resisted calls to remove the classification, if I recall.

tall73 said:

Would the equality act make the provision where only males have to enroll with selective services illegal?

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No. The Civil Rights Act already outlaws discrimination by sex.

Freodin said:

Remembering the uni-sex change rooms that already existed in my childhood, I have to wonder if this isn't rather a problem with the overly puritan attitude that so many Americans have towards nudity.

Or, if you prefer that attitude and want to keep it for whatever reasons: a problem with the American approach to restrooms.

Quite amusing to think that Germany does it better in both ways... nudity AND privacy.

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Yeah, I'm 100% dude and I don't really care to use the toilet around other dudes if I can help it. If accommodating trans folks results in everybody getting more privacy in public restrooms instead of partitions that have gaps wide enough to climb through, well, I'ma start flying that pink and blue flag right now.

tall73 said:

I suppose on that note doesn't the DSM V still refer to Gender Dysphoria as disorder? They changed the designation from Gender Identity Disorder, but resisted calls to remove the classification, if I recall.

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I have no idea what it's classified as. But even if it is considered a mental illness, that doesn't mean we as a society can't take steps towards accommodating similar to how we accommodate physical illnesses and disabilities. There's a whole separate set of building codes intended to enable folks in wheelchairs to participate in the rest of society.

iluvatar5150 said:

Are you talking about professionals or are you talking about kids leagues? Because from the way you've described things, it sounds like your daughter is pretty young. Yeah, maybe for professional leagues of elite athletes (or even varsity high school and college), there ought to be some guidelines regarding weight, hormones levels, and such that acknowledge the biological differences. But if your concern is merely that she's going to get hurt or that she's going to lose, then you shouldn't put her in sports in the first place, because there are going to be a lot of girls who are bigger than her, stronger than her, faster than her, and rougher than her. If she plays sports, she's going to get hurt and she's going to lose. That's sports.

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I think the usual complaint at the high school level is that scholarship positions for top performing female athletes then go to transgender competitors.

If someone who is biologically male has not had any hormonal therapy then they on average would likely have benefits from testosterone, etc. If hormonal therapy was not done before puberty (which to this point usually it hasn't), then they also on average would have a bone thickness advantage, due to angle of joints may have less susceptibility to knee injury, have more testosterone with tendency to more upper body muscle mass, etc.

You mentioned UFC - UFC's women's divisions top out at 145 lb. Ronda Rousey, Amanda Nunes, or any of the couple dozen other women on their rankings could roll into my gym and put every one of us dudes in the hospital without breaking a sweat despite most of us outweighing them by double.

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And would they do the same in their own weight division in the UFC with men? Are you suggesting merging the men's and women's divisions? Or are you just noting outliers within average ranges? A person who has trained for it would of course beat most of us if we haven't trained. That doesn't really address the issue.

If there are no genders, merge the sports into one. If there are two genders then you need to take other factors into account.

essentialsaltes said:

No. The Civil Rights Act already outlaws discrimination by sex.

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Thank you. That was what I was thinking previously, and a brief search confirmed that. But then I wonder how they have the precedent that they do on the issue. It seems a pretty straight-forward case for the ACLU. I need to read more on it.

I was reading the text of the equality act and it all refers back to the Civil rights act, so I will need to read through it as well.

iluvatar5150 said:

Yeah, I'm 100% dude and I don't really care to use the toilet around other dudes if I can help it. If accommodating trans folks results in everybody getting more privacy in public restrooms instead of partitions that have gaps wide enough to climb through, well, I'ma start flying that pink and blue flag right now.



I have no idea what it's classified as. But even if it is considered a mental illness, that doesn't mean we as a society can't take steps towards accommodating similar to how we accommodate physical illnesses and disabilities. There's a whole separate set of building codes intended to enable folks in wheelchairs to participate in the rest of society.

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I was just addressing your earlier post regarding it being considered a disorder. Though more to the point, it is the dysphoria that is considered the disorder, rather than an identity. So it would not apply in all cases without various criteria being met.

TGNC Guide

tall73 said:

I think the usual complaint at the high school level is that scholarship positions for top performing female athletes then go to transgender competitors.

If someone who is biologically male has not had any hormonal therapy then they on average would likely have benefits from testosterone, etc. If hormonal therapy was not done before puberty (which to this point usually it hasn't), then they also on average would have a bone thickness advantage, due to angle of joints may have less susceptibility to knee injury, have more testosterone with tendency to more upper body muscle mass, etc.

And would they do the same in their own weight division in the UFC with men? Are you suggesting merging the men's and women's divisions? Or are you just noting outliers within average ranges? A person who has trained for it would of course beat most of us if we haven't trained. That doesn't really address the issue.

If there are no genders, merge the sports into one. If there are two genders then you need to take other factors into account.

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If we're only talking about competitiveness among the already-small subset of top performers (which includes both UFC professionals and kids competing for scholarships), then I'm fine with trying to draw up some rules that maintain fairness. I'm not going to look it up right now, but I recall reading about some league (maybe UFC, maybe something else, I forget) proposing rules requiring competitors to have been on their hormone regimen for some period of time before switching gender divisions. Like, I couldn't decide today that I'm a girl and go compete in the women's division tomorrow. I'd have to wait a year or so. I'm not up to speed on the nuances of gender transitioning, so I don't know how workable that specific plan was, but at the very least, it struck me as a good-faith attempt at finding a reasonable solution.

But @98cwitr didn't restrict his comments to those elite levels and as far as I can tell, his daughter isn't remotely close to even worrying about that. Getting to the elite level of any sport requires a huge amount of work, dedication, talent, skill, and luck. Everybody at that level is going to have some degree of natural, in-born ability. Everybody is going to be benefiting from some kind of structural or institutional advantage like good coaches, good facilities, family money, etc. Sandbagging from a trans person would only even be a relevant concern once you've cleared all of those other hurdles.

iluvatar5150 said:

If we're only talking about competitiveness among the already-small subset of top performers (which includes both UFC professionals and kids competing for scholarships), then I'm fine with trying to draw up some rules that maintain fairness. I'm not going to look it up right now, but I recall reading about some league (maybe UFC, maybe something else, I forget) proposing rules requiring competitors to have been on their hormone regimen for some period of time before switching gender divisions. Like, I couldn't decide today that I'm a girl and go compete in the women's division tomorrow. I'd have to wait a year or so. I'm not up to speed on the nuances of gender transitioning, so I don't know how workable that specific plan was, but at the very least, it struck me as a good-faith attempt at finding a reasonable solution.

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Generally from what I recall those who advocate for participation of transgender athletes in such situations have noted that puberty blockers early on would help eliminate a lot of those issues. But once you have gone through puberty some of the effects are not reversible (bones for instance), and others would be, in regards to current levels of testosterone, etc.

Then you get into other issues, however, such as what should be the age for consent to transition.

Freodin said:

Remembering the uni-sex change rooms that already existed in my childhood, I have to wonder if this isn't rather a problem with the overly puritan attitude that so many Americans have towards nudity.
.

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I wouldn't say that unisex changing rooms and the scenario suggested here are completely parallel. However, some concerns have been raised about unisex changing areas.

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

Unisex facilities account for less than half the changing areas across the UK, but the number is on the rise

Speedwell said:

If these straight males are bent on committing crimes in women's restrooms, what's stopping them now?

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What is really sad and really sick is that in the 1950-'s and 1960's the idea that desegregation would lead to black men raping white girls in public rest rooms

tall73 said:

I suppose on that note doesn't the DSM V still refer to Gender Dysphoria as disorder? They changed the designation from Gender Identity Disorder, but resisted calls to remove the classification, if I recall.

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transgender and gender dysphoria are not the same thing

98cwitr said:

Non-Sequitur....I was simply asking for a logical explanation of how someone can hold both "we are a secular [Republic]" (we're not a democracy) AND "We have In God We Trust on our currency, state constitutions, etc"

Seems like cognitive dissonance.

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It's a nice motto, but it holds no legal weight. You know that, right?

98cwitr said:

A close-ended question respectfully appreciates a close-ended answer.

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It's a completely reasonable question, if you want to claim that the US should legislate Christian morality. There's no worse sin than denying Christ and worshipping other gods.

keith99 said:

So certian people who call themselves Christian will still be fighting it!

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Probably.

iluvatar5150 said:

Because in the 1950's, politicians decided that waving a banner of religiosity was a good way to thumb our collective noses at the godless communists.



Putting "In God We Trust" on our currency was inconsistent with the structure of the country. The people who did so were in error.

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Actually it was on coins since the beginning.

SilverBear said:

transgender and gender dysphoria are not the same thing

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Note my later post where I note that, and link to more data on the issue.

However, the issues are not unrelated either.