What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

Dave L said:
Scripture alone defines the Church and Church offices. Nothing that formed into the visible institutional churches after the first century can be found in the New Testament.

So, then, you believe Christ instituted a church, said it would last until he returned, and then dropped the ball?

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

Bruce Leiter said:
Please take every passage in its context. After Jesus commends Peter for his profession of faith, Peter rebukes Jesus for saying that he was going to die and rise from the dead. Jesus tells him to get away from him, while addressing him as Satan! So, it wasn't Peter who was the foundation and leader but his faith, though weak. Also, later, James makes the final decision at the first Jerusalem Council.

In terms of John 6, Jesus' seven "I am" statements are figurative descriptions of his spirtual reality, not literal descriptions. When he wanted the crowd to eat his flesh and drink his blood, he was testing the crowd's raal allegiance, who had followed him after being fed with bread and fish when Jesus fed the 5,000 earlier in the chapter. Again, the context helps us understand the true meaning of a passage.

Fully aware that Peter was a man, as was Paul, as were all the apostles, of course, Jesus rebuked them all repeatedly. So what? Jesus didn't tell him to get away from him, he told Satan to get away from him. James, along with all the apostles, agreed with what Peter stated.
In terms of John 6, yes, the I AM statements were figurative, except the main point of I AM...but in the discourse on the Eucharist, he was direct, and when his disciples decided it was too hard for them to do what he was asking, he didn't back down. In fact he doubled down.

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

Berean Tim said:
When did Peter go to Rome ? 1 Peter 5:13 is usually the reference people quote.

1 Peter 5:13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.

What if Babylon in this passage isn't Rome ? I believe Mystery Babylon in Revelation is Jerusalem. I believe Peter is using Babylon as Jerusalem here as well.

Is there another Biblical reference for Peter going to Rome or is it just tradition ?

You can what if all you want. The disciples of the first century knew what was going on and wrote that Babylon was code for Rome.

Berean Tim · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
You can what if all you want. The disciples of the first century knew what was going on and wrote that Babylon was code for Rome.

I'm unsure of your 1st sentence. Can you name your source ? I would like to look it up. Thanks

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

Berean Tim said:
I'm unsure of your 1st sentence. Can you name your source ? I would like to look it up. Thanks

Well, you said, or someone did...what if Peter was never in Rome? Honestly, I have to say 'so what, if Peter wasn't in Rome?" How does that change anything?
But the fact is, Peter was in Rome and all the early Church knew it. What the Early Church Believed: Peter's Roman Residency | Catholic Answers

SabbathBlessings · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Really? I didn't know that. And yet the Church is built on God's Word. Jesus. But Jesus put someone he knew to be trustworthy in charge. He told Peter that he should stop thinking in earthly terms and start thinking in terms of eternity. Peter did that, and let the Church in the first generation.

Personally, I wish you would not take take Jesus name in vain, especially on a Christian forum.

Gods church is not a denomination. It’s people who are willing to do Gods will and not their own. It’s people who love God with all their hearts and seek Him first. It’s people who sin and repent and try to sin no more. It’s people who keeps all of Gods laws and obey because He asked and said obedience is a way we show our love to God and its how we know Him. A church can not save you, the pope can not save or forgive you, only God, He is our High Priest and Savior. You do not need a mediator you can pray directly to Him. God bless

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

imge said:
Personally, I wish you would not take take Jesus name in vain, especially on a Christian forum.

Where did I Do any such thing? Sir, I did not.

Gods church is not a denomination.

You're right. Denominationalism is anti-Christian. Christ created one Church-universal. Catholic.

It’s people who are willing to do Gods will and not their own.

Check.

It’s people who love God with all their hearts and seek Him first.

Check.

It’s people who sin and repent and try to sin no more.

Check.

It’s people who keeps all of Gods laws and obey because He asked and said obedience is a way we show our love to God and its how we know Him.

Agreed. And yet we all live those commandments imperfectly.

A church can not save you, the pope can not save or forgive you, only God, He is our High Priest and Savior. You do not need a mediator you can pray directly to Him. God bless

You're right there, too. Just because someone is Catholic, or whatever, means nothing if they don't live a Christian life. That's the works we do that prove our faith. Faith without works is dead, you know.

Regarding mediator, we often times don't need a mediator, and we most often pray to the Trinity. That said, when I was mowing my lawn, my toddler would want to help daddy. I didn't need any help, and he made my work harder, but the joy on his face when he he acted like he was pushing was priceless. The same way, no we don't 'need' a mediator. But God offers them to us, why not use them for what they are there for. Would you accept the invitation of a king to his banquet, where every sort of thing is offered, and refuse to eat of it?
So the Church doesn't tell us we must use mediators. But when I had cancer, I went to a person we know to be in heaven, who had similar circumstances, and asked him to help me through. If you want to go with 'me and Jesus', that's fine. Jesus is enough, and more. But He provides us with other tools.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Where did I Do any such thing? Sir, I did not.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post. I deeply apologize if I read it out of context. I re-read it and can see you were adding to God. Jesus. not taking His name in vain. The rest I will address a little later. God bless.

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

imge said:
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your post. I deeply apologize if I read it out of context. I re-read it and can see you were adding to God. Jesus. not taking His name in vain. The rest I will address a little later. God bless.

Apology accepted. Just be careful how you read...I like you and you present your point pretty well.

parousia70 · Feb 26, 2021

Jamdoc said:
The ROMAN Catholic Church (key operative word Roman) isn't really all that much like the church that the Apostles set up to begin with.

The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

parousia70 · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
The disciples of the first century knew what was going on and wrote that Babylon was code for Rome.

I disagree.

Babylon was 1st century Christian code for apostate Jerusalem.

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)
"Babylon" was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was where both "Mark" and "Silvanus" lived (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40).

John likewise confirms 1st century Jerusalem is the Great Harlot City Babylon:

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Revelation 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Peter 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Revelation 17:16; Luke 21:20).

The harlot of Babylon and the Book of Revelation by Scott Hahn ::

parousia70 · Feb 26, 2021

Dave L said:
Scripture alone defines the Church and Church offices. Nothing that formed into the visible institutional churches after the first century can be found in the New Testament.

Just as Jehovah Set up a governmental structure for OT Israel, Jesus is setting up His Governmental Structure for NT Israel, the Church.

The governmental structure of the New Israel is related to the Divine and historic government that existed before it. Bishops/shepherds were common names given to Israel's tribal leadership. So also "elder" was a common office of leadership over Israel. There were the kings of the monarchy, and there were prime ministers in Israel, second in command only to the reigning monarch. In a word, Israel always had a divinely instituted government, and this government was re-constututed under the New Covenant King in the first century. In the granting of the "Keys" to Peter (Matt 16:18-19/Isa 22:15-25), the appointment of the new 12 patriarchs (Matt 19:28; 10:1-4; Rev 21:12-14), and the ordination of bishops/elders and deacons, Jesus re-created Israel under the terms and conditions of the New Covenant order. Christ re-instituted the familiar leadership offices from Israel's history, and established the Twelve who expanded the Bishopric/Episcopate for New Israel. They went about ordaining men to offices in every city by the laying on of hands, and commissioned those appointees to continue this same practice also by the laying on of hands (a cardinal NT doctrine according to Hebrews 6:1-2). The establishment of the authorized bishopric can be traced throughout the New Testament scriptures, and is especially highlighted in Acts and the letters to the Bishops Titus and Timothy. The authorized government of New Israel is evidenced in Holy Scripture, and was maintained from Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus and those that followed.

With respect, no one doubted the God Given authority of Peter and his successors until after the 1500s. The early Christians believed it and taught it. As they all understood, Jesus gave His own keys of the Kingdom to Peter (Mt 16:18-19), and the power this conferred upon Peter is detailed at Isaiah 22:15-24, when the O.T. kings gave the keys to their prime ministers.

Berean Tim · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Well, you said, or someone did...what if Peter was never in Rome? Honestly, I have to say 'so what, if Peter wasn't in Rome?" How does that change anything?
But the fact is, Peter was in Rome and all the early Church knew it. What the Early Church Believed: Peter's Roman Residency | Catholic Answers

All I asked if there was Biblical reference if Peter went to Rome ! You say "so what". Well, it would mean Peter wasn't the first Bishop of Rome. There is Biblical support for Paul, he was sent to the gentiles as Peter was sent to the Jews.
I will look at your source, but I'm sure they are a bit bias
Thank You

SabbathBlessings · Feb 26, 2021

Root of Jesse said:
Apology accepted. Just be careful how you read...I like you and you present your point pretty well.

Yes, I agree. That’s a huge thing to get wrong and I am deeply sorry. Thank you for accepting my apology. Appreciate the kind words.

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

parousia70 said:
I disagree.

Babylon was 1st century Christian code for apostate Jerusalem.

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)
"Babylon" was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was where both "Mark" and "Silvanus" lived (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40).

John likewise confirms 1st century Jerusalem is the Great Harlot City Babylon:

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Revelation 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Peter 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Revelation 17:16; Luke 21:20).

The harlot of Babylon and the Book of Revelation by Scott Hahn ::

OK I may have gotten the location wrong, but it wasn't Babylon. But the ECF knew Peter went to Rome.

Root of Jesse · Feb 26, 2021

Berean Tim said:
All I asked if there was Biblical reference if Peter went to Rome ! You say "so what". Well, it would mean Peter wasn't the first Bishop of Rome. There is Biblical support for Paul, he was sent to the gentiles as Peter was sent to the Jews.
I will look at your source, but I'm sure they are a bit bias
Thank You

Well, we don't believe in Bible alone. We don't believe the Word of God is limited to Scripture. It is a Catholic source, but you can go read the references to the Church Fathers.

Valletta · Feb 26, 2021

Berean Tim said:
All I asked if there was Biblical reference if Peter went to Rome ! You say "so what". Well, it would mean Peter wasn't the first Bishop of Rome. There is Biblical support for Paul, he was sent to the gentiles as Peter was sent to the Jews.
I will look at your source, but I'm sure they are a bit bias
Thank You

Remember there was no Bible then, the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. It wasn't a matter of controversy, when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s, were it so the Church could have created a preface to provide an answer. The Bible was never intended to provide historical answers to future challenges that might take place a thousand years or more later, it consists of books that the Catholic Church decided were God-breathed.

Jamdoc · Feb 26, 2021

parousia70 said:
The Church of scripture is one united ecclesial body (Eph 4:3-4; Eph 4:13-16; Jn 17:21; Mt 16:18) without schismatic divisions (1 Cor 12:25; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Jude 1:19; Gal 5:20; 3 John 1:9-10), with one teaching for all the churches (Acts 15:22-23,25,28/Acts 16:4-5; 1 Tim 1:3; 1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:5; Jude 1:3), and one bishopric authorized of and by the apostles (Titus 1:5) by the laying on of hands in ordination (Heb 6:2; 2 Tim 1:6; 1 Tim 4:14; Titus 1:5), sharing ministers back and forth among all churches (1 Cor 16:3; Rom 16:1,3,9,21,23; Phil 2:19,25; Titus 3:12), receiving one another in fellowship and in greeting (Rom 15:5-7; Rom 16:16; Col 4:10,12,14; 3 John 1:9-10), where excommunication removes individuals from this one body (Matt 18:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-2,4-5), and which existed from St. Peter and the apostles unto today (Matt 16:18-19; Eph 3:21).

and what scripture do you use for the ROMAN Catholic Church's idolatry, Mary worship and pagan practices like prayer beads?
It's almost like they took the church established by the apostles, and then started messing with it absorbing all these worldly doctrines and practices. It's half Roman pagan cult.
I dunno why anyone stays on that train when it left the tracks over 1000 years ago.

Valletta · Feb 26, 2021

Jamdoc said:
and what scripture do you use for the ROMAN Catholic Church's idolatry, Mary worship and pagan practices like prayer beads?
It's almost like they took the church established by the apostles, and then started messing with it absorbing all these worldly doctrines and practices. It's half Roman pagan cult.
I dunno why anyone stays on that train when it left the tracks over 1000 years ago.

Please respect those who have different beliefs than yourself. Take this time of Lent God has given you to remember what Jesus did for us all and how he treated others.

Berean Tim · Feb 26, 2021

Valletta said:
Remember there was no Bible then, the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. It wasn't a matter of controversy, when the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s, were it so the Church could have created a preface to provide an answer. The Bible was never intended to provide historical answers to future challenges that might take place a thousand years or more later, it consists of books that the Catholic Church decided were God-breathed.

The Bible exist now. The book of Acts, both of Peters letters, or any other states Peter went to Rome.
Acts by the way is "historical"

What if Jesus comes tomorrow and it turns out these scriptures mean exactly as they read?

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