A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)

Dave L said:

You have at least two entirely different versions of Christ today. As I said the true Christ is the one who chooses whom he will save. Not the one unregenerate minds think they choose as a condition for salvation.

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One must believe in order to be saved.
Read and understand.
Romans10: 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

zoidar said:

This thread is purely for discussing partial atonement, not whether it is true or not, but what follows the belief of the doctrine.

1. Can I know with 100% certainty that I am of the elect?

2. If the answer to question 1 is "no", then can I know with 100% certainty that Christ has borne my sins?

3. If the answer to question 2 is "no" then how can I fully trust on Jesus for salvation if I can't be 100% sure Jesus has borne my sins?

Is there a problem here, or is it simply a misunderstanding on my part? This doctrine can seem to divide us, but if we belong to Christ we are still one family. Be blessed brothers and sisters!

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If you are born again, you are saved. I am not referring to what the church today calls born again. (...say this little prayer and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord then quote John 3:16 ten times then you are born again!) LOL. But my point is you are not born again of the flesh. You must be born again of the Spirit. Here are two examples. The first is not born again and the second is:
1) You stop smoking, drinking, swearing, sex outside of marriage and looking at horoscopes. You switched your entertainment viewing and listening to Christian music and television shows. You are looking to God to help you get ahead in your job, promote your business, help your ministry. You go to church every Sunday and Wednesday night. You read the daily devotions and pick and choose through the bible. You are living to please you and winking at Jesus on occasion. You are living to do your will. You are probably still gossiping and slandering while walking in pride and greed and looking for the approval of the world because you are a friend of the world. God sees you as a harlot. You say you are a Christian. But you are whoring with the world. You can't have 2 masters. This is normal and you should still be learning to put these deeds of the flesh to death. If you stop learning or don't want to go deeper with the Holy Ghost's teaching, well that would be blaspheme.
2) Your desire is to please God. Whatever the cost. You wake up in the morning like you are in the army. Reporting to duty. Your will is to do God's will. God puts thoughts in your head or heart leading you what he wants you to do. You are like the wind. You don't know where you are coming or going. But you take up your cross and follow Jesus. Because he is the way. Your desire is not to please yourself. Or seek the things of the world. You read the bible everyday throughout the day. Because the Holy Ghost is teaching you. And you have a love for the Word. And you love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, strength and mind. You are walking in the Spirit. The fruit of your actions is there. You love. You have joy and peace. You are good and gentle. You have faith, meekness and temperance. Wait I forgot one. Long Suffering. Yes long suffering. While you are putting the deads of the flesh to death, you are suffering. It is not easy to repent if you ever tried it. This is one of the first things Jesus commanded of us. Repent! We are all tempted with the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. You all know the fruit of the flesh or you should. There is to many to list here. But if your life is about I, me, my...well this is fleshly living and your fleshly fruit will follow. And that fleshly desires must die. There is a parable about a grain of wheat that falls to the ground must die before it produces much life. And if you are really born again, signs and wonders will follow you. Healing and no vile thing will harm you and taking up serpents and many more.

READ YOUR WHOLE BIBLE. DON'T JUST READ THE GOOD PARTS THAT PLEASES YOUR FLESH (JOHN 3:16 CHRISTIANS). REPENT! READ THE WARNINGS TO THE CHURCHES IN REVELATION. THESE ARE ALL THROUGH YOUR BIBLE.

zoidar said:

3. If the answer to question 2 is "no" then how can I fully trust on Jesus for salvation if I can't be 100% sure Jesus has borne my sins?

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You can fully trust Jesus, but can you fully trust yourself to do good and not do evil?

Once again, I post the following:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

Can you trust yourself to hold to that? We generally have a lifetime to find out. We are fully atoned, so don't mess it up by living like the devil.

And please, lets not blame anything here on Jesus. The tricky guilt trip your post tries to lay on others holds no water. To imply that we either say Jesus did it all, and we need do nothing, or Jesus is at fault, is a trick of the devil... get behind us..

zoidar said:

1. Can I know with 100% certainty that I am of the elect?

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Believing in limited atonement (i.e. particular redemption i.e definite atonement) means you cannot know for certain whether or not you’re counted amidst the number of the elect.

Nobody but God knows for whom Jesus died, as a result the gospel call is extended to all people everywhere (although the gift itself isn’t for many of the audience.)

zoidar said:

2. If the answer to question 1 is "no", then can I know with 100% certainty that Christ has borne my sins?

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You cannot know for whom Jesus died, believing in limited atonement means you can’t know whether Christ has died for your sins. A result of this is that you must “persevere until the very end” for those in your life to then suppose you’re saved.

zoidar said:

3. If the answer to question 2 is "no" then how can I fully trust on Jesus for salvation if I can't be 100% sure Jesus has borne my sins?

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You can’t know. However, believing in limited atonement can sometimes come with the feeling that you’re saved and can trust Jesus for your salvation, this feeling is superimposed on certain verses of scripture that mention the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Assuming that their private feelings of being saved and various other experiences constitutes those verses, the believer in limited atonement simply feels that way.

The fact that others have sincerely felt saved and ended up falling away, or that others have deluded themselves by their own feelings into believing they’re saved, these things either will or won’t cause a moment of sober reflection, depending on the personality.

I predict this is the most straightforward, complete explanation you will receive on the topic.

Father, in the name of Jesus please visit each person posting on this thread and save each one and correct any error that some embrace.The word says we have not because we ask not. Therefore I ask you on behalf of those posting.In Jesus' name...Amen.

zoidar said:

This thread is not about whether we need to do something or not. A person wrote something about LA a while ago that lead me to start this thread. I felt his answer had a weakness, and wanted to see if it was so. If it did, it would be a good argument for unlimited atonement.

I like the end of your post: "To imply that we either say Jesus did it all, and we need do nothing, or Jesus is at fault, is a trick of the devil... get behind us.."

But I didn't imply that.

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You did imply that. If your words belonged to someone else, fine, but you brought them here.

zoidar said:

Hm, I can't see how my OP is for or against works in salvation.

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You are sounding like you are.

Who here pushes a works salvation?

Norbert L said:

Is it logical when a man has spent his entire life as a thief, moments before his death to be told by Jesus that he will be with Him? Neither of us know how our last few moments in life will pan out.

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True ... knowing the future is much harder than knowing the present. But if one is going to "retro-delete" the assurance of the present if it turns out that in the future one falls away - then even what they think they know today is not true. That is what you have in 3 and 5 point Calvinism. The Arminian Gospel model at least allows you to know for certain what your present state is.

zoidar said:

This thread is purely for discussing partial atonement, not whether it is true or not, but what follows the belief of the doctrine.

1. Can I know with 100% certainty that I am of the elect?

2. If the answer to question 1 is "no", then can I know with 100% certainty that Christ has borne my sins?

3. If the answer to question 2 is "no" then how can I fully trust on Jesus for salvation if I can't be 100% sure Jesus has borne my sins?

Is there a problem here, or is it simply a misunderstanding on my part? This doctrine can seem to divide us, but if we belong to Christ we are still one family. Be blessed brothers and sisters!

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Clever title, by the way. Who says "partial atonement"? The term is Particular Redemption.

zoidar said:

Ok! My post was specifically directed to Reformed.

There will be another time we can discuss what part works plays in salvation.

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See, people that are opposed to doing any works, being good and such for salvation, are constanly calling it a works salvation to make it sound bad, its a clear deception. We believe in faith and works, not just the works some try to claim.

Anyway, that is why I was so concerned about your comment.

Norbert L said:

The problem I see is question number two. Every Christian can 100% know that Christ wants to bear our sins.

Now go back to question number one. Paul, an apostle of Christ understood there is room for failure in his life 1 Corinthians 9:27. I would suggest that having room for doubt is part of the Christian life that is to be struggled with.

So where do believe that leaves number three? In my view it won't be uncommon for numerous Christians to see themselves like a thief on a cross shortly before death.

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Was not the reward Paul spoke of related to his works of building (1Co 3:10-14), and the prize related to his motives (1Co 9:27),
and neither to his salvation (1Co 3:15), since salvation is the Lord's (Rev 7:10).

John 6:
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”(NIV)

One must believe!

zoidar said:

I like to add that I will neither say that a person who believes in faith alone, doesn't see the importance of works.

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I doubt too many would disagree, the scriptue following this, the one I posted earlier here, is referring to works when it states we must do good or go to hell.

Point being, works are very clearly in that scripture, not only important as you say, but cricial to getting us to heaven. The scripture is so simple and clear, the only way to not see that we must do good in order to get to heaven is, if we choose not to see it. It's simplicity is why I like the following so much.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."