A few questions for those who believe in partial atonement (also called limited atonement)
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Rene Loup
Left the pack, joined the flock.
I do know a 0% certainty rate: Leaving the faith.
Unfortunately, there are people, no matter where and when God puts them in, whom simply WILL NOT be reasoned with. I believe some of these people, such as Judas Iscariot and Adolf Hitler, were specifically chosen to fulfill major historic events to advance God's plans.
We all have free will, and yet God is omniscient. I know some members on this forum seem have a hard time understanding this concept. Like I have said before, I cannot fully comprehend God's plans. This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth because I am just a man, not superhuman.[1] To say this is a convenient excuse is just pure pride (Proverbs 16:18, 18:21, 26:12).
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- Dec 19, 2010
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Stop with the round about answers that does nobody any good.
I need you to answer the above questions.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Limited Atonement is not biblical.
Peter talks about false teachers who denied the Lord that bought them.
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1).
In addition, Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for current believers, but he is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE world.
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) (NIV).
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) (KJB).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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So how can we have an assurance that we know we are saved?
Well, John 17:3 says,
“And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3).
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3).
So knowing God and or Jesus Christ is a part of eternal life (salvation).
How can we have the assurance that we know God (i.e. salvation)?
1 John 2:3 says,
“And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).
if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).
1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
So the person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. What truth is not in them? Jesus. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).
Side Note:
When I talk about the keeping of the commands, I am not talking about the keeping of the 613 laws of Moses or any of it's ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, and holy days, animal sacrifices, etc.). When I speak of keeping God's commands, I am referring to the commands that come from Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant (i.e. the New Testament).
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Tree of Life
Hide The Pain
The way that we know we are saved is by faith. We know we are saved because God says we are. And we trust what God says. So perfect knowledge would require perfect faith. Our faith in this world is never perfect, so we cannot “know with 100%” certainty that we are saved. We will always have lingering doubts. But this isn’t because this is unknowable. It’s because we are sinful and our faith is imperfect.
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It's about His motivation towards mankind, you and I. In general He wants to save mankind rather than destroy them. That can be seen in both the NT and OT where He openly is quoted saying such things. It's who He is, as much as we can humanly see.
I believe no matter what side a Christian picks for pet doctrines relative to OSAS, pro or con. God clearly sees through this present Christian dispute and will judge righteously not favoring one side over the other.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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I think that Calvinists call that "Limited Atonement"
Arminians call it "arbitrary selection" or something like "limited love".
But you raise a good point about that view not having the assurance of salvation "logically" since when they "fail to persevere 20 years from today" they will gladly "retro-delete" whatever claims of assurance they claim to have today.
I saw a Calvinist related to a neighbor of mine go through that very "failed to persevere so prior assurance deleted" crisis in real life. At one point he "failed to persevere" in such a colossal fashion that he and his entire family knew it without a doubt. Then later at some point he decided to return to Christ but had the 'dilemma' of the form "yes but now my current assurance feels exactly the same as the prior one that I declared to be fake once I saw that I failed to persevere -- so maybe my current state is also fake".
Even worse -- in the arbitrary selection model, limited-love model you can't even know if your own children are loved by God , their sins atoned for etc.
yep there is the "rub". Arminians can know for certain that they are saved today - but cannot know if they will still choose to be saved 20 years from today.
Three and 5 point Calvinism does not even allow for that much knowledge.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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yep - Romans 8:16 -- that works in the Arminian system - but does not work for 3 and 5 point Calvinism until you see that you will continue to persevere 20 years from today. Else your present assurance is retro-deleted.
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true. So do we all I think.
That is not logical
It is a binary scenario. One or the other is correct by definition
It is like "is there a God yes or no?" -- one of those options is most certainly correct whether you are an Atheist or a Christian or a Hindu you could know that much. You may be wrong about which option is correct - but you will always be correct on the fact that one of the two is correct.
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It better be good if I'm to sit down for five hours. But I will start with the first one, and we'll see.
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- Jun 28, 2018
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If Christ died for all and all are not saved, those who think they are saved must think they save themselves. But this is only a delusion. If Christ died for you, it will be obvious through the salvation experience.
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Peter knew the true Christ by direct revelation given by the Father. The Pharisees thought they believed in Christ but rejected the truth in place of their idol.
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You need to read Luther's "Bondage of the Will" before adopting any view.
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As a Lutheran I believed you know you are saved because you know Jesus bore your sins. You know that because Jesus bore everyone's sins. An unbeliever doesn't know that or want to believe that. So man is forgiven through the cross, that is fact, received by trusting in that fact, that Jesus bore our sins on the cross.
But... I'm no longer a Lutheran so I'm undecided if I believe that is true. At least if you have the Holy Spirit it's a good indicator you are saved. If you know Christ, you know you have the Holy Spirit.
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Maybe I will...
Anyhow, Lutheranism is not Martin Luther. Not saying Lutheranism is right on everything, just saying you can hold to universial (unlimited) atonement and not adding works to salvation.
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