Contradictions in the Bible?

Abide with me. said:

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

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4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.

7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.

It's not in different books or by different authors , moreover it's literally one verse apart , Bible had no verses to begin with so its probably in the same line of text ( I haven't checked).
Both are correct just apply in different situations.

However there is no contradiction at all what you quoted
because you forgive somebody , doesn't mean that you're not hurt just that you will not seek vengeance for what he/she has done to you. You ought to forgive every time but the person still suffers consequences

Abide with me. said:

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

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Friends, I want to preface this post with the following: My opinion on this topic is not worthy of consideration. I am not -- nor do I wish to be -- a religious authority. What is accordingly at issue is Church doctrine, not my personal opinion. Although I often read scripture for inspiration, I am not at liberty to impose my own interpretation thereof. I wish instead to direct everyone's attention to the infallible authority of the Catholic Church.

The Church tells us that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, but it also informs us of the need for an infallible interpreter of scripture. Some believe that scripture interprets itself, but why then are there so many disagreements over its meaning? Even the most straightforward passages require interpretation and engender disagreement. The Catholic Church is mindful of St. Peter's warning concerning St. Paul's Epistles “in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (2. Pet. III, 16).

As far as I know, Jesus did not leave behind any written documents. He did, however, establish His Church. “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matt. xvi, 18.) The Church is the infallible authority required for a proper interpretation of scripture. St. Paul calls her, “The Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth” (1. Tim. III, 15).

The Holy Spirit has bestowed upon the Church both the scriptures and sacred doctrine, and all of this, the Church tells us, is bound up in Ecclesiastical Tradition.

Scripture itself assures us that it does not contain all of Christ's works: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." (John XXI, XXV) Therefore, St. Paul instructs the Thessalonians: “Hold the Traditions which you have learned whether by word or by our Epistle” (2. Thes. II, 14).

The Church teaches that "Tradition" includes all of the doctrines delivered orally by Christ and His Apostles to their disciples together with all that is written in scripture.

Within this vast Tradition is contained, among many other things, the following:

• Knowledge of which texts belong in the Biblical canon;
• Knowledge of the proper interpretation of scripture;
• The Biblical canon itself.

In other words, without the infallible guidance of the Church, we should know neither which texts are truly inspired nor what inspiration truly means nor how to interpret those texts which are inspired.

Therefore, I will not tell you the meaning of the scriptures. I merely urge you to seek guidance from the infallible Catholic Church. Scripture is the inerrant Word of God, so it does not contain contradictions. The error must lie in the understanding, which can be improved through Church Tradition.

God bless!

Abide with me. said:

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

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I view the purpose of shunning as to cause them to question their ways and return to the Lord. So it's a facet of love, just as forgiveness is.

Catholic Philosophy said:

The traditional Catholic Church is mindful of St. Peter's warning concerning St. Paul's Epistles “in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (2. Pet. III, 16).

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Hello Catholic Philosophy, I’m confused, what does St. Peter’s admonishment concerning the words of St. Paul in his Epistles have to do with the Lord Jesus’ words in St. Matthew’s Gospel?

Thanks!

—David

St_Worm2 said:

Hello Catholic Philosophy, I’m confused, what does St. Peter’s admonishment concerning the words of St. Paul in his Epistles have to do with the Lord Jesus’ words in St. Matthew’s Gospel?

Thanks!

—David

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David, may God bless you and your loved ones.

St. Peter's warning is not just about St. Paul's Epistles, for it states “in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (2. Pet. III, 16). Please note the bold section.

Many, many thanks for your question.

God bless!

Hello again @Catholic Philosophy, although a small point, while St. Peter told us that the untaught and unstable distort the meaning of all Scripture, OT and New, I believe that he bestowed the honor of being particularly hard to understand on St. Paul's Epistles alone (I could be wrong about that, of course). In fact, St. Peter seems to include himself as someone who found St. Paul's words somewhat difficult to understand, at least at first blush.

I believe that St. Paul said as much about "natural" men/women, for instance,

--David

Abide with me. said:

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure quite how you extrapolate either of your two options (at the end of your post) from what you reference. God doesn't teach "forgive at all costs". nor to treat the unrepentant sinner with shunning. An unrepentant sinner is the default, for humanity. They are the ones we ourselves once were.

But your post began with another, a brother, who refuses to listen. To remove him from fellowship is correction, not lack of forgiveness.

Abide with me. said:

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

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Both parables are shown grace and both end in judgment, one is treated "as you would a pagan or a tax collector" the other is handed "over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed". So there seems to be a condition the unconditional or exceptions to "at all costs"

topher694 said:

I don't have time for a detailed reply right now, but consider this: are we supposed to hold on to anger, bitterness and hurt until someone apologizes to us?

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Hello again Topher694, as Christians, we are ~never~ to "hold onto anger, bitterness and hurt", rather, we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. That is supposed to be our response, not hate. If it is not, and we hold onto such things, we end up being the ones who need to be forgiven

topher694 said:

What if they never do? That gives them power over us in areas we should be submitted to Jesus and Him alone.

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What power can they possibly have over us as Christians that we do not give to them?

topher694 said:

What if it is impossible for them to repent because they've passed on? Are we now stuck with this the rest of our life?

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Such a situation could hardly happen if we choose to obey the Lord's command (to immediately "rebuke" someone who has hurt us/sinned against us), because once we do what we are commanded to do, the ball is back in the offender's court. If he/she then fails to obey the Lord (by repenting and asking us for forgiveness), we can pray for them, because we've done what we were commanded/needed to do (unless we are still holding onto anger/hurt/bitterness/hate, then ~we~ need to ask God to forgive us and repent).

topher694 said:

This thinking depowers the cross and it's not healthy. The problem your having is in how you are reading it, the phrasing can be a bit misleading.

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Hmm, how can choosing to obey the Lord's commands ever "depower the Cross" and/or be spiritually or even physically "unhealthy" for us as Christians

I really am asking all of these things of you as a person who is still in the midst of studying this topic (and have been, as the opportunity has presented itself, for more than a year now). IOW, I am not close-minded about any of this, in fact, part of me longs for what you are saying to be true Biblically (I already mentioned the people-pleasing side of me ). What you believe is, in point of fact, exactly what I used to believe, until I took a closer look at what the Scriptures are actually saying (or at least seem to be saying anyway).

I feel the same way about 'evangelism by deeds, not words'. I never want to be the Christian who makes people feel bad, so when I read the quote (supposedly from St. Francis) that says, "Preach the Gospel daily, if necessary, use words", it definitely tickled my ears with delight (because prior to that, I only had the Bible to go on, and that's not what the Bible says .. e.g. "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" .. see Romans 10:13-17).

To be clear, the Bible does tell us that we must act like Christians are supposed to when witnessing by speaking the truth, in love (or our words will be rendered useless .. 1 Corinthians 13:1; Ephesians 4:15), but the Bible ~never~ tells us that using 'words' to bring the Gospel to bear in the lives of those who need to know it is to simply be an afterthought of some kind.

Sadly, I used that quote for years as a way of justifying my silence around those who I was led to witness to, just like I've used our modern, non-Christian philosophy of solo/silent "forgiveness" to justify my unwillingness to obey the Lord's difficult command(s) to us in regard to actual/Biblical forgiveness

I look forward to hearing what you have to say (as again, the jury is still out for me concerning this matter). It's hard to believe that the topic of Biblical forgiveness and what it truly is could be so difficult to figure out. Then again, I wouldn't have thought that the topic of God's "love" for us would be either, but it is

God bless you!

--David

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." Eph 4

Some marriages could be saved by applying this one verse.

Later in Eph 4:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Also, the emphasis in Matt 18 is on being humble, definitely not offending, and being compassionate. When talking with the person who has sinned against you in word or deed, the aim is the relationship not establishing who is right. So they wouldn't be approached in a confrontational matter. Five times in Matt 18 it states "hears" you. That means if you're the one bringing it up, then your attitude must be right.

Communication, conflict resolution, and interpersonal relations are complex though greatly facilitated when approached through Biblical guidelines.

topher694 said:

I don't have time for a detailed reply right now, but consider this: are we supposed to hold on to anger, bitterness and hurt until someone apologizes to us? What if they never do? That gives them power over us in areas we should be submitted to Jesus and Him alone. What if it is impossible for them to repent because they've passed on? Are we now stuck with this the rest of our life? This thinking depowers the cross and it's not healthy. The problem your having is in how you are reading it, the phrasing can be a bit misleading.

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If I do not forgive a person who does not repent of an evil he has done against me, does that mean I am to go through life with bitterness and anger, or can I pray for that unrepentant sinner that he will see the error of his ways, and then go on with my life?

So does not forgiving someone who does not repent for a sin against me mean I am destined to be bitter and angry?

If someone sins against God, but they never repent of it, does God still forgive them?

If not, then does that mean God is holding onto anger and bitterness and hurt, until they do repent?

What if hundreds of millions of people never turn to God in repentance, and God condemns them for all eternity... Is God then eternally full of bitterness, anger, and hurt for the hundreds of millions of people he never forgave?

Are we then better than a perfect and holy God, thinking we can forgive someone without them repenting so we don't feel bitter and angry like God is for not forgiving?

OR, if someone sins against us and they do not repent, why can't we just leave that person in God's hands, and pray for the unrepentant that they will in time learn from their mistakes?

Abide with me. said:

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Click to expand...

There are two different issues. Church discipline is not the same as unforgiveness. For example, if your child keeps taking cookies from the pantry, you might put them on a shelf too high for them. They are still your child. You should forgive them and hold nothing against them. But you also put the cookies out of reach until they can be trusted.

If a Christian is behaving badly, then they need to be made aware that their behaviour is not acceptable, for example being abusive towards another Christian. If they refuse to make peace, then they need to suffer consequences such as being prohibited from attending meetings.

This is not a forgiveness issue. It's to maintain the precious unity of the church. If the abusive brother or sister repents, then restore them immediately.

People who live in unforgiving attitudes suffer a great deal. God withdraws His blessing. Unforgiveness easily turns to bitterness, which can have physical consequences. Bitter people often suffer severe arthritis, hence the expression "bitter and twisted".

Tormentors are evil spirits that take opportunity to attack the unforgiving person. The unforgiving one makes a prison for themselves. Some will say, "You don't know what they did to me" to justify their sin. They forget how big a debt they owe God who forgives them whatever sin they've committed.

No one has a right to hold anyone to account for real or imagined offences. There has never been a time when so many people are so offended over issues so imaginary or trivial. Society is unravelling as a result. The Church should be an antidote to the to the present stupidity.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello again @Catholic Philosophy, although a small point, while St. Peter told us that the untaught and unstable distort the meaning of all Scripture, OT and New, I believe that he bestowed the honor of being particularly hard to understand on St. Paul's Epistles alone (I could be wrong about that, of course). In fact, St. Peter seems to include himself as someone who found St. Paul's words somewhat difficult to understand, at least at first blush.

I believe that St. Paul said as much about "natural" men/women, for instance,

1 Corinthians 1
18 The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2
14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
​

--David

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David, I have heavily revised my original post. Perhaps my revisions will interest you.

God bless!

tturt said:

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

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Righteous anger rejects the unrighteousness, addresses it, draws an emphatic line regarding it, and harbors no personal resentment toward the practitioner, while rejecting the unrighteousness itself.

Neither give place to the devil." Eph 4

Some marriages could be saved by applying this one verse.

Later in Eph 4:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Also, the emphasis in Matt 18 is on being humble, definitely not offending, and being compassionate. When talking with the person who has sinned against you in word or deed, the aim is the relationship not establishing who is right. So they wouldn't be approached in a confrontational matter. Five times in Matt 18 it states "hears" you. That means if you're the one bringing it up, then your attitude must be right.

Communication, conflict resolution, and interpersonal relations are complex though greatly facilitated when approached through Biblical guidelines.

Click to expand...

topher694 said:

Forgiveness requires nothing of the offending party, including acknowledging or repenting of the wrong. This is because forgivness isn't about them, it's about you. It is saying, "I'm not going to let what they did negatively impact me any longer". It removes the power they have over you.

What many here are doing is confusing Forgiveness with is reconciliation. You must forgive to reconcile, but you don't have to reconcile to forgive.

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Actually, forgiveness is not about us. Christianity is not man-centered, it's God centered.
Forgiveness is about God and not loving our neighbor as ourself, a fundamental and necessary disposition for the Christian.

Abide with me. said:

In Mathew 18, A brother who sins against you, .....
says that if a brother who refuses to listen to you, witnesses and the Church if he has sinned against you, then you should treat him like the tax collector or pagans, ( who I believe were shunned and despised, ) and then contradicts himself by saying in the next parable of the unmerciful servant, by saying he should forgive his brother seventy seven times if he has sinned against you.

I believe the parable goes on to say that the master ( God ) will not forgive a servant who will not forgive a fellow servant and will therefore be sent to prison and tortured ( hell? )
"This is how my heavenly father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart"

So which is it to be? Forgive at all costs? Or treat the unrepentant like the tax collector or the pagan?

Click to expand...

I belive we can forgive someone who is very toxic while separating ourselves from that person. More importantly, the whole purpose of forgiveness is so we do not become toxic ourselves. Harboring hate in our heart quenches the work of the Holy Spirit thus leading us away from the will of our Father. Blessings.

St_Worm2 said:

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

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Which addresses only the repenting brother, not the unrepenting one.

Matthew 18

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15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”​

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The sin of the unrepenting brother is handled differently for the sake of the body of the Church.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello Topher694, I rarely disagree with what you have to say, but what you just said doesn't seem to line up with what the Bible says. For instance, the Lord Jesus told us this by command,

Luke 17
3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and ~if~ he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, ~saying, ‘I repent~,’ forgive him.”
This passage (and others like in it) are concerned with "forgiveness", not reconciliation, yes? (certainly not directly anyway)​

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The Lord Jesus doesn't tell us to forgive those who have sinned against us so that we can "feel better" and/or feel better about ourselves, rather, He tells us to "rebuke" them, yes, for ~their~ good (and hopefully, for ours as well).

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The more reliable Greek texts do not say "against us," nor the NAS, nor the NIV, nor The Living Bible, nor the Williams New Testament, nor. . .

All sin is against God.

Where does the Bible/Christianity ever teach us to look to ourselves/to our own needs, while intentionally choosing to forgo the needs of others, even the needs of those who have hurt us (does the Lord Jesus not tell us Christians to follow in the footsteps of the Father instead, to love & pray for/to seek the good of those who persecute us .. cf Matthew 5:43-45?)

What the Lord commands us to do 'before' we offer forgiveness to someone who has sinned against us is to "rebuke" them, 1. to make sure that they know what they've done and how we feel about it and why, and 2. to give them the opportunity then to either repent and seek our forgiveness, or to refuse to do so.

I'm certain that the first part (the truly painful part) of the Lord's command to us, to "rebuke" those who have just hurt us (to get the process of forgiveness started), is what we so desperately want to avoid (I am just as guilty of feeling this way and just as guilty of sinning against this command as anyone else is, being the natural people-pleaser that I am, so unfortunately, I get it ), and I believe that's why the church, in general, has taken this modern-day, non-Biblical stance of ~"forgiving" others w/o actually forgiving them~, so that we, the hurt party, can begin to "heal".

But do we ever 'truly' heal when we remain silent, while the dark cloud of dislike/hatred that separates us from the other person remains in place?

So, instead of trying to make ourselves "feel better" (by offering a silent "forgiveness" to those who offend us, w/o regard for them or for the Lord's command to us), we need to ask the Lord to forgive 'us' instead,

1. for disobeying His command to us to begin the process of forgiveness by "rebuke" and
2. for hating the person who hurt us by seeking our good instead of trusting God and seeking their good instead/as well.​

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - the position that we find ourselves in when we've been hurt, combined with the command that we are given by the Lord to begin the process of making things right, can be daunting for us, but that's where trusting the Lord comes in, yes .. e.g. Proverbs 3:5-6.

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setst777 said:

If I do not forgive a person who does not repent of an evil he has done against me, does that mean I am to go through life with bitterness and anger, or can I pray for that unrepentant sinner that he will see the error of his ways, and then go on with my life?

So does not forgiving someone who does not repent for a sin against me mean I am destined to be bitter and angry?

If someone sins against God, but they never repent of it, does God still forgive them?

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All sin is against God.

If not, then does that mean God is holding onto anger and bitterness and hurt, until they do repent?

What if hundreds of millions of people never turn to God in repentance, and God condemns them for all eternity... Is God then eternally full of bitterness, anger, and hurt for the hundreds of millions of people he never forgave?

Are we then better than a perfect and holy God, thinking we can forgive someone without them repenting so we don't feel bitter and angry like God is for not forgiving?

OR, if someone sins against us and they do not repent, why can't we just leave that person in God's hands, and pray for the unrepentant that they will in time learn from their mistakes?

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Clare73 said:

Actually, forgiveness is not about us. Christianity is not man-centered, it's God centered.
Forgiveness is about God and not loving our neighbor as ourself, a fundamental and necessary disposition for the Christian.

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If Christianity is God centered, and God does not forgive the unrepentant; yet, God is still Love, why then do you think a person is man-centered and unloving for emulating God?