Kilk1

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
607
193
Washington State
✟103,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There have been sooo many discussions of this subject here on Christian Forums. I'm thinking that every argument, pro and con, that can be offered has been thoroughly explored on those threads, so you might save yourself a lot of time just by looking them up.

By the way, the main reason for the leading denominations that do not have women pastors to take the stand that they do is NOT because of the verses that deal with women being silent in church or submissive. That idea has significance in some of the smaller fundamentalist churches, but it's a different scriptural issue that is really the key to the answer.
What's the different Scriptural issue that's key to this issue? I'd be interested in hearing it!
 
Upvote 0

Kilk1

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
607
193
Washington State
✟103,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Since Paul promoted women speaking in other contexts, it is overreaching to say that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 applies to women speaking in every context.
full
I agree; there has to be at least some limit to the context. Would the limited context of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 be that it applies just "in church"?
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
What's the different Scriptural issue that's key to this issue? I'd be interested in hearing it!
Hi. I appreciate you asking, but when I gave my first reply to this thread I wanted to be of some help but not to be a party to starting us off on the same old argument for another 300 posts. It's all been said, I think, and that's why I recommended that you look up the earlier discussions of this topic and take a look. It's all there. Please forgive me for limiting my involvement now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

If all women are to be silent in the church throughout Christisn history, Paul contradicts himself in 1 Cor 11:5 where women are allowed to prophesy.

Who can teach according to 1 Cor 14:26?

Oz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Strong in Him
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,491
7,061
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟952,359.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Would the limited context of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 be that it applies just "in church"?
I do not know. I have heard viable explanations that the church in Corinth was a bit unruly, and that this directive was specific to them (so that the message would not be interrupted). Women were less likely to be directly educated, so specific questions would be directed to their husbands.

But "Save your questions for home, instead of blurting them out in church,"
is a far cry from "Women are forbidden to speak in any context in church."
And the former is consistent with this verse AND the rest of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Amen!


What would the two of you say about alternative interpretations of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? For example, some say that this just means that women, who were uneducated at the time, shouldn't interrupt the service with questions and that the passage isn't necessarily forbidding them from speaking publicly (cf. 1 Corinthians 11). How would you each respond? Thanks!

I agree. Paul was addressing disorder in the church gathering promoted by women . Hel

Thank you for the reply! While the Bible certainly allows women to teach, would 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 apply to women when "in church" (v. 35), and would 1 Timothy 2:12 apply when teaching "over a man"? If not, what do they mean? Thanks!

Check out the meaning of the Greek infinitive, authentein, to help with the interpretation of 1 Tim 2:12.

Remember the culture of female prostituution in Ephesus where Timothy was when Paul wrote to him.

In effect Paul told the women to shut up & sort it out with their husbands at home.

It was not meant to be an absolute for women in the Christian church.

Remember most early church plants were house churches.

Oz
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Sabertooth
Upvote 0

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,223
3,039
Kenmore, WA
✟276,939.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
But "Save your questions for home, instead of blurting them out in church,"
is a far cry from "Women are forbidden to speak in any context in church."
And the former is consistent with this verse AND the rest of Scripture.

You can teach by asking questions. Paul is closing a potential loophole here.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,491
7,061
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟952,359.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You can teach by asking questions. Paul is closing a potential loophole here.
He cannot mean it in that context because he continues,
"And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home;..." 1 Corinthians 14:35 NKJV

So, he is suggesting that they "teach their husbands" at home...?
 
Upvote 0

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,223
3,039
Kenmore, WA
✟276,939.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
He cannot mean it in that context because he continues,
"And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home;..." 1 Corinthians 14:35 NKJV

So, he is suggesting that they "teach their husbands" at home...?

He is suggesting that they put their questions to their husbands at home, so their husbands can raise it at church.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Paidiske
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,136
20,163
US
✟1,440,644.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He cannot mean it in that context because he continues,
"And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home;..." 1 Corinthians 14:35 NKJV

So, he is suggesting that they "teach their husbands" at home...?

As I pointed out in a comparison verse of Luke, by "asking questions" the women were insinuating themselves as disciples to male teachers, which Paul did not permit. Mature Christian women were to be the teachers of Christian women, or in the case of women married to Christian men, then their husbands.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Sabertooth
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

topher694

Go Turtle!
Jan 29, 2019
3,828
3,038
St. Cloud, MN
✟186,760.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Ok, so here is something to chew on. Consider the idea that 1 Cor 14:34-35 are not Paul's words, but a quote from the letter they wrote to Paul, then read the chapter with that idea in mind and see if it reads differently.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: bèlla
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,136
20,163
US
✟1,440,644.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@RDKirk & @Sabertooth

What do you think of John MacArthur’s stance on the subject? I’d love your feedback.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

He's wrong. Most bible students know that you can't base doctrine on a single passage, but must take everything into context.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,491
7,061
62
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟952,359.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What do you think of John MacArthur’s stance on the subject? I’d love your feedback.
Besides agreeing with @RDKirk, I think that he pulled the "tongues" detail out of [someplace besides his Bible ;)].*

While I think he has enough Gospel to get people saved, he has shown himself to be a rabid Cessationist and I find him to be unreliable on that topic.

Also IMX, Cessationists have been more inclined to craft non-existent rules from their Bibles, since they do not seem to believe that the Holy Spirit can lead dynamically where the Bible is unclear.

*"Tongues" doesn't fit with "ask your husband when you get home..." :confused:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kilk1

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2019
607
193
Washington State
✟103,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi. I appreciate you asking, but when I gave my first reply to this thread I wanted to be of some help but not to be a party to starting us off on the same old argument for another 300 posts. It's all been said, I think, and that's why I recommended that you look up the earlier discussions of this topic and take a look. It's all there. Please forgive me for limiting my involvement now.
Okay, I understand. Do you have any thread in particular you could point me too? If so, I'd appreciate it!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,748
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,349.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

All the women on my wife's side of the family are always preaching at me. So, I guess..... wait, what was the question?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,784
Pacific Northwest
✟728,105.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk

There are basically two questions:

Can women preach/teach/etc?
Can women be pastors?

This is an important distinction to make, because one does not need to be an ordained member of the clergy in order to preach and teach. And, in fact, all throughout the history of the Christian Church there have been valiant, brave women of faith who have defended the faith, proclaimed the faith, and taught the faith.

We have, for example, in St. Paul's epistle to the Romans the mention of several women who were at varying levels of ministry and work. The following is Romans 16:1-16

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well.[/quote]

The ESV here translates the word used as "servant", but the Greek is quite less ambiguous. It calls her a διάκονον (diakonon), a deacon.

And yes, female deacons--sometimes called deaconesses--have been a thing in Christianity since antiquity. Though these things seem to have fluctuated a bit depending on time and place.

St. Phoebe the Deacon was, based on Paul's words here, a patron of the church. That is, she was probably a widow with some money, in the early days of Christianity wealthy widows often used their wealth to turn their villas and homes into places of worship. An example of this can be seen at the archeological site at Dura-Europa in Syria, in which a house had been modified for Christian worship, including a built-in baptismal font to conduct baptisms in, and a dedicated space for the Liturgy.

Whether or not St. Phoebe was a deacon in a more generalized sense, or in the more technical sense is open to debate. That women were called deacons is clear, what is less clear is exactly what sorts of ecclesiastical duties this would have encompassed.

Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well. Greet also the church in their house.

Here, again, St. Paul mentions a woman, St. Prisca and her husband St. Aquila. And he calls this married couple his "fellow workers in Christ". And, again, we see that they were patrons of a church. What exactly was their work is probably unclear, but that Paul calls both of them "fellow workers" shouldn't be glossed over. Neither should it be glossed over that the Apostle names Prisca, the wife, before her husband Aquila.

Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in Asia. Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

The Apostle again mentions a woman, this time by the name of Mary. We know less about her than many others mentioned here. Attempts to identify her with other persons named Mary are tenuous at best. But yet, she was clearly very important for Paul to mention her here.

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

The ESV here renders the language as "well known to the apostles", but the Greek text says, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, "who are noteworthy among the apostles". In modern times some have attempted to downplay this, suggesting that they were simply well known to the apostles (hence the rendering by the ESV here); but according to the ancient fathers of the Church there was no confusion: Andronicus and Junia were apostles.

In fact St. John Chrysostom himself goes to great lengths to proclaim just how incredible and noteworthy it is, that a woman here is counted among the apostles--an honor that cannot be understated.

Sts. Andronicus and Junia were apostles. We should remember that in addition to the Twelve Apostles, and St. Paul, there were a large number of other apostles, some of whom Scripture mentions explicitly such as Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus, and Junia; but tradition remembers the "Seventy Apostles" though exhaustive lists differ on names here.

Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys. Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. Greet my kinsman Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord. Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; also his mother, who has been a mother to me as well. Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers who are with them. Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you."

Paul continues to list many both men and women as fellow workers, ministers in Christ, doing Christ's work in, through, and for the Church.

Here alone should give us all the indication we need that the Apostle never condemned women from holding a position to teach. And, in fact, Scripture explicitly speaks of a woman teacher of the faith. Specifically St. Priscilla and her husband Aquila (this is the same couple mentioned in Romans 16 above). They taught a student of John the Baptist, Apollos of Alexandria, in the way of Christ. This is the same Apollos the Apostle mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament.

So time and again St. Paul praises women for their work in ministry and the church, as teachers, preachers, fellow ministers.

And even outside of this, we have for example the tradition of St. Paul's missionary companion St. Thekla, who is not mentioned in the New Testament, but was well known from tradition since the earliest days of the Church. We have the stories of great women of faith, such as Sts. Felicity and Perpetua. We have the story of St. Felicitas of Rome, a mother of seven sons who worked together in preaching the Gospel right in the heart of the Roman Empire--and who were all arrested and eventually suffered a martyr's death. It was St. Felicitas' great courage and strength that held them together, and it held her together as she was forced to watch each of her children put to death for refusing to recant and renounce Christ. Until she too, in the end, received her crown.

So given the preponderance of biblical material, the idea that St. Paul forbid any woman from teaching any man, or forbid any woman from preaching or speaking in the context of worship (elsewhere St. Paul explicitly mentions women preaching in Church, see 1 Corinthians ch. 11) simply does not work.

This is the reason why arguably most exegetes today understand that what is being discussed in those passages in 1 Corinthians 14 and in 1 Timothy are very specific circumstances.

1 Corinthians 14 is talking about the need for order in worship, and likewise in 1 Timothy the Apostle seems to be speaking about a unique situation where certain women were trying to overthrow those already commissioned in the church. The word that is used in 1 Timothy 2:12 is αὐθεντεῖν (authentein), which gets translated variously as "have authority" or "usurp authority". It's a peculiar word, used only once in the entire New Testament, here in 1 Timothy 2:12. It very often means to take authority by force, even violently--such as when one kills a king and claims thekingdom for himself.

That's important, because Paul isn't saying, "Women can't have any authority over men", but that forcefully taking authority, making oneself the authority, trying to usurp authority is the problem. And just to be clear, this isn't a sex/gender issue; as though it's wrong for a woman to do that, but okay for a man. It would be just as wrong for a man to usurp and assert his own authority over and against the rightful authority and structure in the Church. Because the Church is supposed to have good order, there are processes and protocols and systems in place for how to have pastors, presbyters, bishops, etc.

If you were to proclaim yourself the new pastor of your church, trying to depose the current pastor--that would be a violation of the good order of the Church and the act of a schismatic. If there is a pastor who shouldn't be a pastor--through abuse, teaching false doctrine, etc, there are ways to go about disciplining and even removing offending clergy. Propping oneself up is wrong--pastors are not lords, but servants of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,784
Pacific Northwest
✟728,105.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Ok, so here is something to chew on. Consider the idea that 1 Cor 14:34-35 are not Paul's words, but a quote from the letter they wrote to Paul, then read the chapter with that idea in mind and see if it reads differently.

I've heard this theory before. It also seems to help address the sudden and abrupt change in the text. This passage of the text feels very interuptive, it comes out of seemingly no where in the flow of what Paul is saying.

As I've heard some suggest that this may be an addition to 1 Corinthians from a later time (though still very early, as a possible very early scribal gloss); or rather perhaps it was somewhat moveable; as many of our manuscripts place this elsewhere in the text. A possible insertion from the now lost Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul doesn't sound totally out of question, or out of line here. Though I'm hardly knowledgeable enough to weigh in on the matter.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sheila Davis

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2020
830
291
Houston
✟65,057.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Divorced
Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?
Hello! Does the Bible forbid women from being preachers or pastors?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk


1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11-12: "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Thanks,
Kilk
Pastor Arnold Murray of the Shepherd's Chapel, taught does scriptures have been misunderstood. In his studies, he refers to the times of those days; when women sit on one side and men sit on the other. The women had the tendency to interrupt, asking personal questions of their husbands, questioning the teaching or just alright gossiping, disturbing the meetings.
There were women that Paul upheld greatly:
Aquila, Priscilla who had Church in their homes 1st Corinthians 16:19.
Phebe, Paul told the church to receive her Romans 16:1-4.
Junia, Romans 6:15.
Euodia & Syntche, Paul asked that they help these women who labor with him in the gospel, Philippians 4:2-3.

In the Old Testament God use Deborah to rule Israel. God had female Prophets Miriam - Exodus 15:20 _
Hulda - 2nd Kings 22:14 _
Naudial - Nehemiah 6:14_
Unnamed female prophet - Isaiah 8:3 Anna - Luke 2:26.
Scripture tells us God will, can, and does, use anyone for his purposes.
 
Upvote 0