theology education

Jesusthekingofking

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I've friend who only prefer bible only study, but if there's conference or class like anthropology they are not interested. Is this a norm for protestant Christian? sola scriptural doesn't mean one can be arrogant and only be interested in reading the bible ONLY, if one discard what was going on in the past, in church history, we might repeat the same heresy because we can definitely read certain passages with our modern lens wrongly.
 

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I've friend who only prefer bible only study, but if there's conference or class like anthropology they are not interested. Is this a norm for protestant Christian?

Definitely not. However, there are some people like your friend.

sola scriptural doesn't mean one can be arrogant and only be interested in reading the bible ONLY, if one discard what was going on in the past, in church history, we might repeat the same heresy because we can definitely read certain passages with our modern lens wrongly.
The problem you are describing to us really doesn't have anything to do with Sola Scriptura. It's more the product of a mindset that says "nothing matters except our religious faith, so I don't want to hear of anything else."
 
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Jesusthekingofking

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Definitely not. However, there are some people like your friend.


The problem you are describing to us really doesn't have anything to do with Sola Scriptura. It's more the product of a mindset that says "nothing matters except our religious faith, so I don't want to hear of anything else."
how does attending course like theology classes have nothing to do with the bible? I can argue does the first and second century read their NT? ignorant about the rich history of the church is a lost. Maybe that's why there are many denominations out there today, modern men who think only their reading is correct.
 
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Albion

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how does attending course like theology classes have nothing to do with the bible?
Your friend is enrolled in a theology course?

If so, his mindset does seem harder to appreciate, but there are such people who deliberately refuse to pay any attention to history, science, or other such studies, thinking that they are only "man's" doings whereas they are committed to God's work, etc. etc.

In answer to your first question, however, this is not typical of Protestant people or churches.

I can argue does the first and second century read their NT? ignorant about the rich history of the church is a lost. Maybe that's why there are many denominations out there today, modern men who think only their reading is correct.

On the contrary, the kind of thinking that your friend exhibits seems to be more characteristic of non-denominational Christians and ones who refuse to affiliate with any congregation. The major denominational splits in Christian history have been fueled by people who cared about such things as Christian history and Patristics and felt strongly that whichever institutional church was their concern had gone off-course and needed reforming.
 
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BobRyan

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I've friend who only prefer bible only study, but if there's conference or class like anthropology they are not interested. Is this a norm for protestant Christian? sola scriptural doesn't mean one can be arrogant and only be interested in reading the bible ONLY, if one discard what was going on in the past, in church history, we might repeat the same heresy because we can definitely read certain passages with our modern lens wrongly.

A lot of sola-scriptura Christians have Univerity degrees, post-grad, post-doc etc. It is not "normal" for a Christian to say they can only read the Bible. For example .. how could they have ever passed a driver's test in such cases.
 
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com7fy8

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I've friend who only prefer bible only study, but if there's conference or class like anthropology they are not interested. Is this a norm for protestant Christian?
no

But conferences and studies can be used to teach even exact opposite ideas. So, we need to know God's word so we can see through how conferences and claims of history could change us from what God wants.

I think I have seen how a speaker can use things like "historical context" to get people away from what the context right in God's word can tell us.
 
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bling

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I hate the fact that after reading a commentary or book presenting a doctrine, I can not confront the author with questions. Most authors are dead and I hate debating with a dead person. Authors that are alive have never answered my emails or letters and I was trying to be very nice.

I do get into discussions and have to read the books people reference, but find the author gives lots a support for his conclusion and problems with other conclusions, but this is based a lot on his personal interpretations of scripture and he leaves out the scripture references which would not support his conclusion without an explanation.

Jesus avoided debates over which teacher of the Law gave the best explanation and would go back to the Bible and ask: “what does scripture say?”

I do not have enough time now to read and study all the scripture I would like to understand without having to read someone’s ideas. I might after developing my ideas look to see what others think.

If I really want to know what scripture says I:

1. Really look at my motive for wanting to know (to win an argument, to look good before others, for academic reasons, to put someone else down, to be more intellectual, or the get through some chapter) does not work.

2. If I am really willing to allow scripture to change me for the better, to help me and others, I can count on the Spirits help.

3. Pray maybe all night, fast, meditate on it, look up everything in scripture about it, read it over and over, wait for the answer as long as needed, and present it to like minded Christians accepting their criticism. I really need to feel the Holy Spirit partnering with me and know I have knowledge way beyond my years.

Realize this, over 50 years ago there were less than 3 million Christians in China when the Chinese government rounded up all the full-time clergy, books and institutions to never be seen again, so we though Christianity was gone from China. When China opened up, we found there were over 75 million Christians attending unregistered house churches in China and they had only the Bible to work with and today there are between 120 million to 160 million Christians in the unregistered churches, yet they still have only the Bible. When a Chinese Christian is putting their life and livelihood on the line, they tend to really want to know what and why they are trusting Jesus.

Maybe we need to start by burning all our books and commentaries, to study only scripture.
 
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I hate the fact that after reading a commentary or book presenting a doctrine, I can not confront the author with questions. Most authors are dead and I hate debating with a dead person. Authors that are alive have never answered my emails or letters and I was trying to be very nice.

I do get into discussions and have to read the books people reference, but find the author gives lots a support for his conclusion and problems with other conclusions, but this is based a lot on his personal interpretations of scripture and he leaves out the scripture references which would not support his conclusion without an explanation.

Jesus avoided debates over which teacher of the Law gave the best explanation and would go back to the Bible and ask: “what does scripture say?”

I do not have enough time now to read and study all the scripture I would like to understand without having to read someone’s ideas. I might after developing my ideas look to see what others think.

If I really want to know what scripture says I:

1. Really look at my motive for wanting to know (to win an argument, to look good before others, for academic reasons, to put someone else down, to be more intellectual, or the get through some chapter) does not work.

2. If I am really willing to allow scripture to change me for the better, to help me and others, I can count on the Spirits help.

3. Pray maybe all night, fast, meditate on it, look up everything in scripture about it, read it over and over, wait for the answer as long as needed, and present it to like minded Christians accepting their criticism. I really need to feel the Holy Spirit partnering with me and know I have knowledge way beyond my years.

Realize this, over 50 years ago there were less than 3 million Christians in China when the Chinese government rounded up all the full-time clergy, books and institutions to never be seen again, so we though Christianity was gone from China. When China opened up, we found there were over 75 million Christians attending unregistered house churches in China and they had only the Bible to work with and today there are between 120 million to 160 million Christians in the unregistered churches, yet they still have only the Bible. When a Chinese Christian is putting their life and livelihood on the line, they tend to really want to know what and why they are trusting Jesus.

Maybe we need to start by burning all our books and commentaries, to study only scripture.

What?

The situation of the house churches in China is extremely suboptimal. What they want, and should have, are educated clergy who knows what the Bible means.

As it stands, the tragedy with the situation in China is the likely proliferation of heretical ideas resulting from misunderstanding the text as a result of no catechesis to compensate for the Confucian/Taoist/Buddhist philosophical underpinnings of their society.
 
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bling

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What?

The situation of the house churches in China is extremely suboptimal. What they want, and should have, are educated clergy who knows what the Bible means.

As it stands, the tragedy with the situation in China is the likely proliferation of heretical ideas resulting from misunderstanding the text as a result of no catechesis to compensate for the Confucian/Taoist/Buddhist philosophical underpinnings of their society.
I see you know little about the unregistered church in China.
The Communist government for a long time supported the printing of the Chinese translation of the Bible (at least 100 million were printed) and you could pick one up for around two dollars at any registered church. Commentaries and most other religious books were not allowed. The Communist like the ethics taught in scripture (they want the masses to have those ethics while they have their own ethics). This printing might be hauled now, since they stopped accessing Bibles on line, we do not know how many more Bibles are in China.
The Communist government really helped these individual house churches to consistently teach the same doctrine, by early on, publishing a long list of instruction on what the registered Christian Churches could not teach. That "list" became what the unregistered Churches would teach and the leaders went to scripture to find the support for teaching it. They are going to be in trouble for teach any of these nonallowed ideas they might as well teach them all, so bring in other allowed philosophical ideas is a waste of time, you have to justify for yourself and others, teaching what is not allowed.
 
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The Liturgist

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I see you know little about the unregistered church in China.
The Communist government for a long time supported the printing of the Chinese translation of the Bible (at least 100 million were printed) and you could pick one up for around two dollars at any registered church. Commentaries and most other religious books were not allowed. The Communist like the ethics taught in scripture (they want the masses to have those ethics while they have their own ethics). This printing might be hauled now, since they stopped accessing Bibles on line, we do not know how many more Bibles are in China.
The Communist government really helped these individual house churches to consistently teach the same doctrine, by early on, publishing a long list of instruction on what the registered Christian Churches could not teach. That "list" became what the unregistered Churches would teach and the leaders went to scripture to find the support for teaching it. They are going to be in trouble for teach any of these nonallowed ideas they might as well teach them all, so bring in other allowed philosophical ideas is a waste of time, you have to justify for yourself and others, teaching what is not allowed.

Ok, so we have a network of house teaches who preach a “Gospel” dictated, via negativa, by the People’s Republic of China. Great. Meanwhile Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the original Christian church in China until the genocide of the Uzbek Muslim warlord Tamerlane, the Assyrian Church of the East, are not allowed in the country, nor is anyone allowed to teach their doctrines. Also, among the doctrines the registered Chinese churches aren’t allowed to teach: the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is restricted from discussing papal supremacy or infallibility, which are uniquely Catholic doctrines. So the idea that these churches would turn out well because they teach a list of doctrines prohibited by the PRC is absurd; when it comes to dogmatic theology, the PRC has no idea what its talking about and therefore prohibits the teaching of whatever doctrines it perceives, rightly or wrongly, as a threat to state power.

Our best hope for these house churches is that some semblance of religious freedom remains in Hong Kong and Macau despite the illegal crackdown the PRC has implemented there, and that members of these house churches are able to covertly travel to Hong Kong and Macau to obtain religious instruction. Then on that glorious day when the PRC goes the way of the USSR and Communism in general, or alternately, better yet, the Premier has a conversion experience like St. Constantine, the house churches will form the parishes in a new network of dioceses of Chinese churches currently operating unrestricted in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau.

Right now there is a beautiful Russian Orthodox cathedral in Harbin, but it is a museum; if you are one of the many descendants of Russian missionaries such as St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, your only options are a church behind the closed gates of the Russian embassy, churches in Hong Kong, or house churches following Orthodox doctrine which actually is illegal. And likewise, perhaps even more so, if you are an Anglican; the Book of Common Prayer, like the Orthodox service books and personal prayer books, very plainly expresses things which would infuriate the Chinese, and is from a country which has developed an enmity with China, but had cathedrals all over the country before the Japanese invasion and is still present in Hong Kong. Faithful Orthodox and Anglican Chinese Christians who are persecuted become martyrs and confessors for Christ as much as anyone else.

And the suggestion that we burn books that many Anglicans and Orthodox and Catholics regard as holy in the sense of being set aside for worship, for example, the Book of Common Prayer, the Orthodox service books which are not leather bound but are permitted to be on the Holy Table, the Roman Catholic missals and breviaries, and especially the liturgical Gospel Books and other lectionaries of these churches, which in the Orthodox Church are specially consecrated, and consist of the Gospel Lessons for each day of the year, is horrific. In fact, the idea that we should burn any books strikes me as being deeply offensive, considering the last people who did that were Mao in the Cultural Revolution and the Nazis in the build up to World War II.

There are eight books anyone considering burning books ought to read, the ten commandments, in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which prohibit stealing, including of books, the Gospels, particularly the Summary of the Law, and two more recent books, Fahrenheit 451 and better yet, Nineteen Eighty Four (Bradbury’s book deals more specifically with book burning, hence the title, because books will catch fire at 451 degrees Fahrenheit, but Orwell’s classic, completed shortly before his death from throat cancer in 1949 and in many respects a mea culpa for his earlier work for the brutal British Imperial police in Burma, and retraction of his support for a totalitarian English Socialist state, akin to the latter writings of St. Augustine where he withdrew earlier teachings he came to believe were incorrect, is about the immense power wielded by those who have the ability to alter or destroy information. At one point, a member of the Inner Party when sentencing the protagonist to death says “You will be destroyed in the path as well as the future.” And if the idea of reading said literature offends you, watch the film adaptations (the classics with John Hawkins, and the 1984 production of the same book with Richard Burton and John Hurt).

Then it might become clear to you, and by you, I mean any Christian who thinks book burning is a good idea, why members of the early church when persecuted by the Roman Empire protected the books with their lives, not specifically the Bible, because the Bible as we know it did not yet exist, but rather the Gospels, the books of church order, the epistles, the accounts of the martyrs, the books of the Old Testament; these by the way are called “books” for a reason and it wasn’t until Constantine converted to Christ that high quality codices containing the entire Bible began to be produced by scribes in Alexandria and Caesarea (which in turn led to the debates about what to include in the New Testament which were settled by St. Athanasius).
 
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But conferences and studies can be used to teach even exact opposite ideas. So, we need to know God's word so we can see through how conferences and claims of history could change us from what God wants.

I think I have seen how a speaker can use things like "historical context" to get people away from what the context right in God's word can tell us.

Historical context is actually important in understanding much of the Bible. It really helps to know what we know about ancient civilizations. For example, some passages in the Gospel become clearer when you learn that in that age, the custom in the Greco-Roman world was to recline on one’s side in a triclinium of three couches facing each other, in ascending tiers when eating, rather than sitting upright. Those seats in the lowest tier, facing each other, were the seats of the host and his most favored guests (who were generally male, women eating separately), and our Lord attends several dinners hosted by semi-Hellenized Jews conducted in that manner, particularly in the Gospel According to Luke.
 
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bling

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Ok, so we have a network of house teaches who preach a “Gospel” dictated, via negativa, by the People’s Republic of China. Great. Meanwhile Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and the original Christian church in China until the genocide of the Uzbek Muslim warlord Tamerlane, the Assyrian Church of the East, are not allowed in the country, nor is anyone allowed to teach their doctrines. Also, among the doctrines the registered Chinese churches aren’t allowed to teach: the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is restricted from discussing papal supremacy or infallibility, which are uniquely Catholic doctrines. So the idea that these churches would turn out well because they teach a list of doctrines prohibited by the PRC is absurd; when it comes to dogmatic theology, the PRC has no idea what its talking about and therefore prohibits the teaching of whatever doctrines it perceives, rightly or wrongly, as a threat to state power.

Our best hope for these house churches is that some semblance of religious freedom remains in Hong Kong and Macau despite the illegal crackdown the PRC has implemented there, and that members of these house churches are able to covertly travel to Hong Kong and Macau to obtain religious instruction. Then on that glorious day when the PRC goes the way of the USSR and Communism in general, or alternately, better yet, the Premier has a conversion experience like St. Constantine, the house churches will form the parishes in a new network of dioceses of Chinese churches currently operating unrestricted in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau.

Right now there is a beautiful Russian Orthodox cathedral in Harbin, but it is a museum; if you are one of the many descendants of Russian missionaries such as St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco, your only options are a church behind the closed gates of the Russian embassy, churches in Hong Kong, or house churches following Orthodox doctrine which actually is illegal. And likewise, perhaps even more so, if you are an Anglican; the Book of Common Prayer, like the Orthodox service books and personal prayer books, very plainly expresses things which would infuriate the Chinese, and is from a country which has developed an enmity with China, but had cathedrals all over the country before the Japanese invasion and is still present in Hong Kong. Faithful Orthodox and Anglican Chinese Christians who are persecuted become martyrs and confessors for Christ as much as anyone else.

And the suggestion that we burn books that many Anglicans and Orthodox and Catholics regard as holy in the sense of being set aside for worship, for example, the Book of Common Prayer, the Orthodox service books which are not leather bound but are permitted to be on the Holy Table, the Roman Catholic missals and breviaries, and especially the liturgical Gospel Books and other lectionaries of these churches, which in the Orthodox Church are specially consecrated, and consist of the Gospel Lessons for each day of the year, is horrific. In fact, the idea that we should burn any books strikes me as being deeply offensive, considering the last people who did that were Mao in the Cultural Revolution and the Nazis in the build up to World War II.

There are eight books anyone considering burning books ought to read, the ten commandments, in Exodus and Deuteronomy, which prohibit stealing, including of books, the Gospels, particularly the Summary of the Law, and two more recent books, Fahrenheit 451 and better yet, Nineteen Eighty Four (Bradbury’s book deals more specifically with book burning, hence the title, because books will catch fire at 451 degrees Fahrenheit, but Orwell’s classic, completed shortly before his death from throat cancer in 1949 and in many respects a mea culpa for his earlier work for the brutal British Imperial police in Burma, and retraction of his support for a totalitarian English Socialist state, akin to the latter writings of St. Augustine where he withdrew earlier teachings he came to believe were incorrect, is about the immense power wielded by those who have the ability to alter or destroy information. At one point, a member of the Inner Party when sentencing the protagonist to death says “You will be destroyed in the path as well as the future.” And if the idea of reading said literature offends you, watch the film adaptations (the classics with John Hawkins, and the 1984 production of the same book with Richard Burton and John Hurt).

Then it might become clear to you, and by you, I mean any Christian who thinks book burning is a good idea, why members of the early church when persecuted by the Roman Empire protected the books with their lives, not specifically the Bible, because the Bible as we know it did not yet exist, but rather the Gospels, the books of church order, the epistles, the accounts of the martyrs, the books of the Old Testament; these by the way are called “books” for a reason and it wasn’t until Constantine converted to Christ that high quality codices containing the entire Bible began to be produced by scribes in Alexandria and Caesarea (which in turn led to the debates about what to include in the New Testament which were settled by St. Athanasius).
I was teaching one of my Chinese Students Sunday and she talked about going by on her way to school for 12 years a Catholic Cathedra and going in because that was here only contact with Christianity. She saw fewer and fewer old people attending there and decided Christianity must be for old people. The Orthodox Churches in China are dwindling away, partly because they are built around pyramid type organization and not a flat level organization with everyone is led by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the leadership are servants of the members.

I did want to say more about your concern for the unregistered Church in China being led away by false teachers. False teachers are not motivated by a huge Love for God and people, but a selfish desire for: influence, control, wealth, power, fame, and self-glory. We need to think about how this might work with house churches and a very charismatic, gifted false teacher:

1. He really cannot draw large crowds, since a home might at most handle 40 people.

2. He is not going to increase his paid, since a house leader is an unpaid job.

3. He is not going to become famous, since that will draw attention of the Party and get him thrown in jail (if not killed).

4. To grow, the house church splits, so this false teacher has to train another false teacher to lead the other house church, but where does this second false teacher get his material from, since he is lucky to have the Bible?

5. This false teacher cannot get his ideas published to pass on, so how can it grow?

6. The main issue is the fact before even going to the house church meeting, you have to commit to accepting the risk of: being found out, going to prison, losing your job, being shunned by family and friends, and being believer baptized. A member or two will be your teacher to really help you be able to logically count the cost of becoming a Christian. This prospect will need to know for himself, a lot prior to making such a huge commitment. One of our students last month said she wanted to be baptized, but we make them call home before making such a commitment even though she thought her parents in Beijing would be fine with it. They went ballistic. She held off being baptized to learn how best to convince her parents about Christianity and give them the opportunity to support her decision. We have to this summer to prepare her, but I think she will be ready, she is very smart.

I was not meaning literally we should burn all books, but we need to find our answers in scripture so we can use scripture to provide answers to others. If I quote some spiritual leader to answer a question for a Muslim, I have to allow that Muslim to quote answers from Muslim Biblical scholars, so now I am arguing with a dead man. Stay in scripture, make your answers your answers and not an answer you agree with, since you want those you are teaching to give you their ideas and not an idea of a person they like.
 
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I was teaching one of my Chinese Students Sunday and she talked about going by on her way to school for 12 years a Catholic Cathedra and going in because that was here only contact with Christianity. She saw fewer and fewer old people attending there and decided Christianity must be for old people. The Orthodox Churches in China are dwindling away, partly because they are built around pyramid type organization and not a flat level organization with everyone is led by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the leadership are servants of the members.

I did want to say more about your concern for the unregistered Church in China being led away by false teachers. False teachers are not motivated by a huge Love for God and people, but a selfish desire for: influence, control, wealth, power, fame, and self-glory. We need to think about how this might work with house churches and a very charismatic, gifted false teacher:

1. He really cannot draw large crowds, since a home might at most handle 40 people.

2. He is not going to increase his paid, since a house leader is an unpaid job.

3. He is not going to become famous, since that will draw attention of the Party and get him thrown in jail (if not killed).

4. To grow, the house church splits, so this false teacher has to train another false teacher to lead the other house church, but where does this second false teacher get his material from, since he is lucky to have the Bible?

5. This false teacher cannot get his ideas published to pass on, so how can it grow?

6. The main issue is the fact before even going to the house church meeting, you have to commit to accepting the risk of: being found out, going to prison, losing your job, being shunned by family and friends, and being believer baptized. A member or two will be your teacher to really help you be able to logically count the cost of becoming a Christian. This prospect will need to know for himself, a lot prior to making such a huge commitment. One of our students last month said she wanted to be baptized, but we make them call home before making such a commitment even though she thought her parents in Beijing would be fine with it. They went ballistic. She held off being baptized to learn how best to convince her parents about Christianity and give them the opportunity to support her decision. We have to this summer to prepare her, but I think she will be ready, she is very smart.

I was not meaning literally we should burn all books, but we need to find our answers in scripture so we can use scripture to provide answers to others. If I quote some spiritual leader to answer a question for a Muslim, I have to allow that Muslim to quote answers from Muslim Biblical scholars, so now I am arguing with a dead man. Stay in scripture, make your answers your answers and not an answer you agree with, since you want those you are teaching to give you their ideas and not an idea of a person they like.

There are NO Orthodox Churches in Mainland China. None. Unlike Catholicism and a generic Protestantism, the practice of the Orthodox Christian Faith, which Russian missionaries had exported to China starting in the 19th century on a large scale during their mutual alliance against Japan, was made ILLEGAL after the Sino-Soviet Split in 1972.

So whatever church your friend attended and is referring to, I can assure you, it was not Orthodox, as the only Orthodox churches left in China are in the Special Administrative Regions and Taiwan.
 
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A lot of sola-scriptura Christians have Univerity degrees, post-grad, post-doc etc. It is not "normal" for a Christian to say they can only read the Bible. For example .. how could they have ever passed a driver's test in such cases.
What if they’ve read or studied other avenues in the past, and came to the conclusion (after being distracted and blown around) that The Bible is all they need?
 
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Unless by “Orthodox” you mean it in a literal sense, which means these house churches you are so enthusiastic about are “cacodox”, since Orthodox literally means “Right glorifying” and if the state churches are right-glorifying, which I doubt, the house churches are, by virtue of doing whatever the state churches and the PRC ought not to be doing are, using Boolean logic, wrong-glorifying.

The reality is that none of these churches are Orthodox, because they are in both cases dictated by the PRC. How stupid would the Communists have to be to publish a list of things they actually don’t want house churches, which are by their nature too small to be easily monitored, teaching? It’s a mind trick, so that the poor victim of Communist China has a choice between public churches openly controlled by the PRC, and house churches which the PRC invisibly manipulates through these lists of forbidden teachings.

I might change my mind if you can produce a translation from a neutral, non-PRC affiliated source, of what the 175 prohibited teachings are.
 
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What if they’ve read or studied other avenues in the past, and came to the conclusion (after being distracted and blown around) that The Bible is all they need?

Then they misinterpreted the Gospels and made the common error of confusing the written word with the Living Word, Jesus Christ. Most likely this was due to ignorance of the Greek language and the multifaceted definition of Logos.
 
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BobRyan

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What if they’ve read or studied other avenues in the past, and came to the conclusion (after being distracted and blown around) that The Bible is all they need?

Good luck ignoring those street signs, menus at restaurants, Directions on packages sent, letters from family and friends, emails, tax forms, ... even this discussion via posts on CF...

I have never met a Christian that goes to such extremes.
 
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Hmm

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I was teaching one of my Chinese Students Sunday and she talked about going by on her way to school for 12 years a Catholic Cathedra and going in because that was here only contact with Christianity. She saw fewer and fewer old people attending there and decided Christianity must be for old people. The Orthodox Churches in China are dwindling away, partly because they are built around pyramid type organization and not a flat level organization with everyone is led by the indwelling Holy Spirit and the leadership are servants of the members.

I did want to say more about your concern for the unregistered Church in China being led away by false teachers. False teachers are not motivated by a huge Love for God and people, but a selfish desire for: influence, control, wealth, power, fame, and self-glory. We need to think about how this might work with house churches and a very charismatic, gifted false teacher:

1. He really cannot draw large crowds, since a home might at most handle 40 people.

2. He is not going to increase his paid, since a house leader is an unpaid job.

3. He is not going to become famous, since that will draw attention of the Party and get him thrown in jail (if not killed).

4. To grow, the house church splits, so this false teacher has to train another false teacher to lead the other house church, but where does this second false teacher get his material from, since he is lucky to have the Bible?

5. This false teacher cannot get his ideas published to pass on, so how can it grow?

6. The main issue is the fact before even going to the house church meeting, you have to commit to accepting the risk of: being found out, going to prison, losing your job, being shunned by family and friends, and being believer baptized. A member or two will be your teacher to really help you be able to logically count the cost of becoming a Christian. This prospect will need to know for himself, a lot prior to making such a huge commitment. One of our students last month said she wanted to be baptized, but we make them call home before making such a commitment even though she thought her parents in Beijing would be fine with it. They went ballistic. She held off being baptized to learn how best to convince her parents about Christianity and give them the opportunity to support her decision. We have to this summer to prepare her, but I think she will be ready, she is very smart.

I was not meaning literally we should burn all books, but we need to find our answers in scripture so we can use scripture to provide answers to others. If I quote some spiritual leader to answer a question for a Muslim, I have to allow that Muslim to quote answers from Muslim Biblical scholars, so now I am arguing with a dead man. Stay in scripture, make your answers your answers and not an answer you agree with, since you want those you are teaching to give you their ideas and not an idea of a person they like.

Your references to sharing God's Word with students in China who are risking everything merely by gathering together always make me feel extremely fortunate that I am able to freely meet up with fellow Christians. I'm sorry you've had such negative comments in this thread from people who lack your frontline experience.
 
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bling

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There are NO Orthodox Churches in Mainland China. None. Unlike Catholicism and a generic Protestantism, the practice of the Orthodox Christian Faith, which Russian missionaries had exported to China starting in the 19th century on a large scale during their mutual alliance against Japan, was made ILLEGAL after the Sino-Soviet Split in 1972.

So whatever church your friend attended and is referring to, I can assure you, it was not Orthodox, as the only Orthodox churches left in China are in the Special Administrative Regions and Taiwan.
It was most likely a Catholic Church, I consider the Catholic church to be one of the Orthodox churches because I know little in that area, but that is not the point.
 
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Your references to sharing God's Word with students in China who are risking everything merely by gathering together always make me feel extremely fortunate that I am able to freely meet up with fellow Christians. I'm sorry you've had such negative comments in this thread from people who lack your frontline experience.

I don’t object to persecuted Chinese Christians practicing their faith. My reply to @bling was on a different subject, which was what he posted in this reply:


I hate the fact that after reading a commentary or book presenting a doctrine, I can not confront the author with questions. Most authors are dead and I hate debating with a dead person. Authors that are alive have never answered my emails or letters and I was trying to be very nice.

I do get into discussions and have to read the books people reference, but find the author gives lots a support for his conclusion and problems with other conclusions, but this is based a lot on his personal interpretations of scripture and he leaves out the scripture references which would not support his conclusion without an explanation.

Jesus avoided debates over which teacher of the Law gave the best explanation and would go back to the Bible and ask: “what does scripture say?”

I do not have enough time now to read and study all the scripture I would like to understand without having to read someone’s ideas. I might after developing my ideas look to see what others think.

If I really want to know what scripture says I:

1. Really look at my motive for wanting to know (to win an argument, to look good before others, for academic reasons, to put someone else down, to be more intellectual, or the get through some chapter) does not work.

2. If I am really willing to allow scripture to change me for the better, to help me and others, I can count on the Spirits help.

3. Pray maybe all night, fast, meditate on it, look up everything in scripture about it, read it over and over, wait for the answer as long as needed, and present it to like minded Christians accepting their criticism. I really need to feel the Holy Spirit partnering with me and know I have knowledge way beyond my years.

Realize this, over 50 years ago there were less than 3 million Christians in China when the Chinese government rounded up all the full-time clergy, books and institutions to never be seen again, so we though Christianity was gone from China. When China opened up, we found there were over 75 million Christians attending unregistered house churches in China and they had only the Bible to work with and today there are between 120 million to 160 million Christians in the unregistered churches, yet they still have only the Bible. When a Chinese Christian is putting their life and livelihood on the line, they tend to really want to know what and why they are trusting Jesus.

Maybe we need to start by burning all our books and commentaries, to study only scripture.

Basically, this struck me as implying two things I object to: that we might be spiritually better off if we did burn all our books and commentaries, some of which are older than parts of the Bible, and lets also not forget there is a dispute over how many books are in the Old Testament, and the KJV beloved by all actually includes the deuterocanonical books because the Anglican church reads them for edification (the exact wording is in one of the 39 Articles of Faith), its just most printed copies omit them for cost reasons.

I also object to the implication that we would be spiritually healthier if forced to practice our faith under the strictures of Chinese communism. I wonder how ethnically Chinese members of the forum, and other members of Asian ethnicity, feel about that.

I support persecuted Christians. I contribute to Voice of the Martyrs. I broke a decades long affiliation with a mainline denomination in part because in that denomination’s zeal to affect domestic politics in a left-leaning direction, they were largely uninterested in the suffering of the Syrian Christians and the Copts due to ISIL, when that suffering was at its peak.
 
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