What must I do to be saved?

Butterball1 said:

Salvation does not depend upon God first having to miraculously act upon a person (regeneration) for a person to be saved. Such an idea not only makes God a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) it makes God culpable for the ones God chose not to regenerate.

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Not if He has bestowed grace upon everyone giving them the ability to repent and believe.

Dan1988 said:

We can affirm that all of these things are true because scripture teaches them. We're not like you Arminians who just run away and hide so you can avoid dealing with difficult Bible doctrines.

Who are we to tell God what He can and can't do with His property, All you can achieve by attempting to do this foolish thing, is have yourself cast into the lake of fire. So it's better to keep our nose out of Gods business or else

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Show me an example where God preordained a person to do wrong then God punished that person for the wrong God caused that person to do. I will not run away.

Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion to some irrelevant but often highly charged issue.
Ad hominem - Wikipedia

I gave you some issues to deal with but you attack me rather than deal with the issues all the while assuming your position is correct while giving no proof.

Dave L said:

If salvation is from the Lord and he saves you so you can believe, he gets the glory. If He only provides hoops for you to jump through (free will choices) you get the glory in fictional supposed salvation.

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Not if we were incapable of repentance without His grace, then our choices were only made possible by God and not by us then we cannot boast about it and God does receive the glory.

BNR32FAN said:

Not if He has bestowed grace upon everyone giving them the ability to repent and believe.

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If everyone already possesses the ability to repent and believe, then there is no need for God to "regenerate" man to enable man to do some thing man is already able to do.

Dan1988 said:

Please allow the Bible to take it a step further. If you accept the Bible teaching that God created all things, then you accept that God created us with all of our attributes and abilities.

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You said that you started out with one set of attributes and then switched to another set. If your disposition towards loving and serving God were predestined, then why were you originally the opposite of that? Whereas there are others I know, like younger relatives I've watched grow up, who were geared towards loving and serving God from the start. Then there have been others who started out that way and were very committed and then turned away.

Dan1988 said:

Now that we've come this far lets go another step and ask why we don't believe that God created some with the ability to believe and others without

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The thing is I know those who were firm believers and learned scripture very well and then turned to unbelief. One of which was a coworker I got to know very well. Another is my older brother who was pretty much my first teacher in Christianity. His pastor was the famous Calvinist John MacArthur. My outspoken atheist brother isn't afraid of going to hell because he was taught once saved always saved.

Dan1988 said:

We can affirm that all of these things are true because scripture teaches them. We're not like you Arminians who just run away and hide so you can avoid dealing with difficult Bible doctrines.

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Calvin’s doctrines are very simple to refute according to the scriptures and the only way Calvinists can defend them is to disregard what is actually stated in the scriptures. John 15:2 is one example. How can branches who are IN CHRIST be cut off for failing to bear fruit and how can John 15:6 be true if irresistible grace is true. Then there’s Revelation 2:20-21 why did Jesus expect Jezebel to repent if she had not received grace enabling her to and if she had received grace enabling her to the how was she able to resist? There’s a ton more I can come up with.

MMXX said:

When it comes to predestination or not, it seems to me there's a paradox involved. Since God is omniscient, He already knows who will accept Him and who will reject Him before they are born. So based on that some are born unto salvation and others are born unto destruction. God knew from before the foundation of the world, which would be which.

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Yet foreknowledge does not demand preordination.
"Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee......And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Yet 40 days later Nineveh was NOT overthrown even though God said "Nineveh shall be overthrown". Does this mean God lied? Does it mean God's foreknowledge was inaccurate? What can you make of it?

MMXX said:

You said that you started out with one set of attributes and then switched to another set. If your disposition towards loving and serving God were predestined, then why were you originally the opposite of that? Whereas there are others I know, like younger relatives I've watched grow up, who were geared towards loving and serving God from the start. Then there have been others who started out that way and were very committed and then turned away.

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Does God flip flop in what He preordains or are the flip flops themselves preordained and if so for what purpose?

Butterball1 said:

Yet foreknowledge does not demand preordination.
"Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee......And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown."

Yet 40 days later Nineveh was NOT overthrown even though God said "Nineveh shall be overthrown". Does this mean God lied? Does it mean God's foreknowledge was inaccurate? What can you make of it?

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Well that's why I called it a paradox. If that's the right word. Perhaps conundrum is more applicable. You don't believe in predestination at all, but you can't deny that God knows whether or not every single person who's born is going to accept Him or not. So one could say God lets people be born, even though He knows way ahead of time that they will end up in hell.

Butterball1 said:

Does God flip flop in what He preordains or are the flip flops themselves preordained and if so for what purpose?

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I'm not sure how it works.

Butterball1 said:

If everyone already possesses the ability to repent and believe, then there is no need for God to "regenerate" man to enable man to do some thing man is already able to do.

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Yeah if God has already bestowed grace upon everyone there’s no need for Him to do it a second time.

Dan1988 said:

Only God and the individual know if he is saved. Nobody else can know for sure. Not obeying the gospel shows us the person is currently not saved, but we never know if God will yet grant them salvation.

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You say: “individual know if he is saved”, but how does the individual know he is saved and not just fooling himself, believing a lie?

You say: “Not obeying the gospel shows us the person is currently not saved”, so if obeying the “Gospel” excludes sinning and you sin, does that mean you are not saved?

You did not answer the question about, “if you sinned yesterday or not”, so I assume you sinned, so why does that not tell us and you, that you are lost?

Dan1988 said:

I don't know anything, I just put my trust in the One who knows everything and He takes care of those minor details.

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Are you considering: “if I am saved or not saved” a minor detail?

Dan1988 said:

I'm not sure if you're joking about the "but it is God who saves us by judging our hearts". If that were the case every single person would be cast into hell, because the heart of mankind is wicked above all things.

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I am not joking around: our reaction to God’s actions upon us can harden or soften our hearts, so at judgement we have a hard or soft heart, which is what God looks for.

GOD Shines Forth! said:

Your view of how and when God saves is opinion, only Scripture can define it with precision (you have provided none). The Father gets glory, period, whether a person responds to his kindness to us in Christ Jesus or not. "...there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other."

Man is called upon to choose Him throughout Scripture. I didn’t make that up, it’s there all through it. He isn’t playing word games with mankind. The free gift offer is real and available.

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You say people save themselves and rob God of his glory. We cannot believe unless God first saves us. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

MMXX said:

I'm not sure how it works.

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I respect your answer friend. I love to see this kind of honesty, it’s almost rarely seen these days that a person can humble himself and simply say “I don’t know”. Many will make something up or jam a commentary into the conversation. God bless

Dave L said:

You say people save themselves and rob God of his glory. We cannot believe unless God first saves us. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

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That’s not what he said at all. He specifically said that we have the choice to respond to God’s kindness. If I’m not mistaken he is referring to Romans 2 where Paul makes it clear that people who have received grace from God can still reject it or they can accept it.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Another clear example that grace is not irresistible.

Dan1988 said:

Everything you wrote above is sound Biblical doctrine, but I would like you to clarify one thing.

Could you please confirm or correct what you said in the first paragraph, where you stated that "Christ died for all". i believe you meant to say His sacrifice on the cross was enough to pay for every mans sins.
Christ's atonement was enough to cover everyone but Christ never said He came to suffer and die for everyone He actually said "I came to save many" not "all" as some have incorrectly interpreted it to say.

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I mean that Christ died for all. In St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, chapter 5, verse 18 he says that Christ has justified all. In Hebrews 2:9 we read that Christ tasted death for every man.

Christ's Atonement is universal--for everyone.

This is what is called Objective Justification, it is what Christ has done for everyone. Subjective Justification is our personal benefiting and receiving of Christ's once-and-for-all work. And thus, by the grace of God we are justified by His grace alone, through faith. Through faith God appropriates to us Christ's perfect and finished work.

But Christ very much died for sinners--all sinners. There is not a single human person in the history of the world for whom Christ did not come to save. For it is the very will of God that all be saved. For He is, after all, "the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10), and that He is patient, "willing that none should perish, but that all come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

For this reason Christ commands His Church to preach the Gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15), proclaim forgiveness of sins in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47), and to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).

-CryptoLutheran

Dan1988 said:

Yes we know all about Peter but Peter is not God, so all he was doing was preaching and suggesting and nothing more. Just as we do today, but that's a long way of being a commandment from God.

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All Scripture is inspired even what Peter preached in his first homily. Salvation is not just once and done, mere belief doesn't do a thing even the demons believe. To start the Salvation journey repentance and Baptism are necessary then the process starts and ends at our death were we hope to enter God's gracious presence

Butterball1 said:

---I'm not Arminian, there are things about it I do nt agree with.

--- "....how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent...." Scripture is silent on it for Scripture never affirms that God forces men to do wrong thru ordination then punishes men for the wrong God forced them to do. Such corrupts God's nature in being unjust, unloving. To claim this would be Calvinists sticking their nose into God's business.

John Calvin: "Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." (John Calvin, Inst. I.xvi.8. 1539 edition)

If a murderer on trial in a courtroom states "it's not my fault, God made me do it" and he may be laughed at or called a liar or sent for mental evaluation. Yet Calvinists proclaim that very thing.

===Calvinism false claims man is born totally depraved. If such were true then Pharaoh would have been infected with it whereby he would naturally disobey God as his totally depraved nature would dictate him to do. Therefore why would God have to harden Pharaoh's heart against his will when Pharaoh's totally depraved nature would already have made Pharaoh to disobey?

===what sense can be made of the book of Jonah? God ordained Nineveh to do wickedness..... God sends Jonah to preach to them.....yet in 40 days and Nineveh would be destroyed...Nineveh repented...but then God repented of destroying Nineveh.
If God predetermined Nineveh to be lost, then why send Jonah to preach to them knowing they would not be saved? How, why could Nineveh repent if they were both totally depraved and ordained to be lost? Why would God ever have to "repent" (Jonah 3:10) if all has been preordained?

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Adrian Rogers the preacher, does a good job refuting Calvinism and reformed election dogma, here:

Dan1988 said:

If I read this before I was converted, I would mock you and your God. I was happy living as a heathen (one who lives for pleasure).

I was totally committed to a life of sex, money, drugs and all manner of criminal activity. I hated God, so there was no way in the world I could ever decide to stop doing everything I love and start serving the God I hate. I knew the Christians are boring losers, who never have any fun and they're not allowed to enjoy anything so why would I want to join a bunch of miserable Church goers and listen to all that boring crap in Church.

What you wrote above is total foolishness to a normal person, that's just for those weirdos. Now please give me the formula to make normal people go against everything they are and believe and go for this nonsense.

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Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation, that grace is irresistible, and therefore the Holy Spirit is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11:


Joh 1:11 He came unto HIS OWN, and his own received him NOT.


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is impossible in Calvinism - for the elect, who Jesus came for, to resist and reject salvation - yet they did just that.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.


Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to YOU: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


This happened because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah when He came for them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

If you believe in Jesus as your personal Savior and Lord, there should be no Judgment, No Rejection or Condemnation against you. It says so in the bible.