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Why would God choose choose circumcision for His Covenant?
- Thread starter Joey16Vargas
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Jesus is the way the truth and the life. There are only a few sentences written about Abraham.
The Muslims circumcise and claimed Allah favored Mohammed. Mohammed was a raider.
What does circumcision prove? It is only a change in outward appearance.
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The men would see a visible reminder of the covenant at least twice a day.
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This started way before Israel and Abraham. Circumcision existed in at least half the cultures of the near east and before Abraham did it.
1) In Egypt it marked the priestly cast. So it is fitting because God made Israel a nation of priests.
Isaiah 61:6; Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6
2) It symbolizes cutting off and putting away the flesh, as well as other things like the new birth etc.
3) It is a sign and token of being in Covenant with God. And the fact it hurts and costs something is a probably a plus in respect, because people often don't value things that come too easily.
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klutedavid
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A Gentile would need to be serious about celebrating the Passover, to even consider circumcision. I don't think I would have it done.
Men need to look at their penis when urinating, which way is it pointing. A circumcised person would have a constant reminder of the covenant, every time they urinated.
For young men that area of the body is very important, it occupies their thoughts for years.
The covenant with God is a personal and national agreement and God made sure that the Jews never forgot that. God got them in the pride of place and where it hurts.
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Circumcisions were bloody, covenants back in the day needed blood, so there it is.
Also since the people were idolaters, and idolatry is associated with adultery, a nice coincidence.
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coffee4u
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This is a really big topic.
So first I want to check that you have in mind it's original form as given from God to Abraham. Too many people have in mind an American hospital circumcision I have found.
Circumcision as given by God to Abraham and RIC (Routine Infant Circumcision) are very different.
The original practice was to pull the foreskin forward and clip the very end. That needs to be kept in mind. The Israelite's did not detach and amputate most of it -that would have caused a lot of death since they did not have the surgical tools like the clamp nor was it even in mind.
It then got perverted. Jewish men attending the Greek games would try and pull their foreskin down to blend in with the intact Greeks. It was at that point that new rules got made and more was taken, rules made by men. Later still even more got taken along with both the foreskin and the frenulum due to John Harvey kellog who made the severe form popular as a cure for masturbation. They believed masturbation caused madness and epilepsy.
The original intent was a blood sacrifice with very little physical change to how it all worked.
Moving onto why I believe that area on men was picked and not only that area but why woman are not given any form of blood sacrifice at all.
When Adam sinned, he sinned with intent. While Eve sinned from being deceived.
Genesis 3:6
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Adam was not deceived and he was with her the whole time while Satan deceived her. He knowingly choose to sin. There is a divide,a difference between men and women.
I believe sin gets passed on from a father to his children. Not by the mother. She has sin but does not pass it on. This is why I believe Jesus was sinless, because he did not have a human father to pass sin onto him.
If sin is passed on by the father alone it makes sense that men should sacrifice more. To me it makes sense that the sacrifice happens to the male genitals since it is with that they create new life.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
It was Adam that brought sin into the world not Eve.
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
This is why I believe God called only men to be marked in such a personal area and not women.
But circumcision as handed down by God to Abraham has not been practiced since 300 BCE. It was from then on that it was perverted and more and more skin was taken. It was never God's intention to 'take the foreskin'.
Today we are no longer under the law of physical circumcision, God wants our hearts and physical circumcision avails nothing because it is no longer about blood sacrifice, Jesus was the sacrifice. Bulls, rams and foreskin is no longer required.
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I think you answered your own question, "to mark men in their most personal (and sensitive) area", etc...
It also had a lot to do with being clean and unclean back then also, etc, but I think that was secondary, etc...
And it was probably only the men, cause men were the head and in the lead back then, to an excessive degree back then, etc, and if they led right, then the women and children would automatically be right also, etc, or would be sanctified or counted as holy also, etc...
Anyway,
God Bless!
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It was also supposed to be related to circumcision of the heart also, for men specifically, etc, being the other/another one of their most sensitive and most personal areas, etc...
Making it more sensitive (again) also, etc...
And most men, if they were being honest, can perfectly understand that relation, etc...
And that it would require or take the shedding of blood to do it, with their hearts, etc, Jesus Christ's blood (sacrifice) more specifically, etc...
Without Christ and all of what He did, no hearts would be able to be converted quite like His words and His truth does it, etc...
They are like a knife circumcising a man's penis, etc...
Only it's their hearts God is after, etc...
God Bless!
Making it more sensitive (again) also, etc...
And most men, if they were being honest, can perfectly understand that relation, etc...
And that it would require or take the shedding of blood to do it, with their hearts, etc, Jesus Christ's blood (sacrifice) more specifically, etc...
Without Christ and all of what He did, no hearts would be able to be converted quite like His words and His truth does it, etc...
They are like a knife circumcising a man's penis, etc...
Only it's their hearts God is after, etc...
God Bless!
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The flesh is sin and israel as God's people were cut off and separated from others. If you didn't comply you were cut off too, but you are the flesh that is thrown away. The flesh is still sin and our spiritual circumsion then cuts it off. It's a bit crude but effective.
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I completely agree with you, it is all about the sinful flesh also, etc, but true sin always starts in and with the human heart, etc, or begins there, in the heart, etc, and it needs a lot of changing and converting greatly, etc...
And I believe, is what God was really after, etc...
And that the literal circumcision of the penis, for men, was only a "shadow" of that, etc...
Hopefully most men understand, etc...
Anyway,
God Bless!
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If the law only had circumcision as a shadow law example you would say it's a Christian convenience to spiritually interpreted it. But the many facets and complexity of the law with each precept verifies that the law had a design to it that pointed to something greater. Again, easily written off if it were only a few but there are so many examples it's almost innumerable showing that Christianity is not just a made up religion by gentile Jews but is baked in since the begining. The first day God sent light to a formless dark world and this has become a type of mantra of God (if I may redeem that term) of God constantly speaking "let there be light"
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I completely agree...
Many shadows/mantras of things in the OT all pointing to something far greater...
Mainly the true Kingdom of God, etc...
Like the circumcision of the flesh being that of converted hearts, etc...
As just only mainly just "one of them" only, etc...
Well said...
God Bless!
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Circumcision has been practiced in Egypt since ancient times. [Sixth Dynasty (2345–2181 BCE) tomb artwork in Egypt has been thought to be the oldest documentary evidence of circumcision, the most ancient depiction being a bas-relief from the necropolis at Saqqara (c. 2400 BCE) with the inscriptions reading: "The ointment is to make it acceptable." and "Hold him so that he does not fall".]
Remember that Egypt ruled Canaan / Palestine for most of its ancient history. [Circumcision was also adopted by some Semitic peoples living in or around Egypt. Herodotus reported that circumcision is only practiced by the Egyptians, Colchians, Ethiopians, Phoenicians, the 'Syrians of Palestine', and "the Syrians who dwell about the rivers Thermodon and Parthenius, as well as their neighbours the Macronians and Macrones".]
Also, remember the story of Moses when his wife had to circumcise their sons upon entering Egypt (Exodus 4:24-26).
The only uncircumcised tribes living in Palestine were the Philistines (1 Samuel 17:26) who were an Aegean / Greek, rather then a Semitic / Middle Eastern, group who settled in what is today the Gaza Strip since the 12th century BC.
History of circumcision - Wikipedia
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But it was only within Judaism/Christianity that it was meant to point out something, or point to something, far greater, etc...
As with a lot of things within that, or this, religion, etc...
The others did it for other reasons, etc...
But only within our religion, was it meant to point toward something far greater, etc...
Like to seal a blood covenant/pact with the only true God, for one, or for starters, and then to eventually point toward, eventually, an aspect of the Heavenly Kingdom for another, etc...
Mainly, circumcised hearts, and an end to selfish sinful flesh and it's unsatisfiable lusts, for another, etc...
In no other religion or circle has it ever meant that, etc...
Cause that is unique to Jews and Christians, or Christians and Jews, etc...
God Bless!
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Thera
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It's arguable that it's harm. Circumcision is often still performed today for medical reasons.
Adam was the one who sinned. Trimming off the foreskin may symbolise cutting off the seed of Adam, as he was the one who brought sin to mankind - not Eve. It needed to be the skin, as this is a non-essential part of the male generative organ.
There are other possible meanings also, in reference to our hearts. A calloused heart is described as a heart of stone in scripture, whilst a circumcised heart is a heart that is humble and listens to God.
I think we are more hesitant these days to talk about things that scripture speaks of plainly. They weren't worried to talk about circumcision or "personal" things in the bible - one of the biggest insults was "uncircumcised philistine", and they shouted it for all to hear. Circumcision needed to be on men, because Adam sinned. It needed to be the foreskin, as that is the only unneeded part of the male organ (and the Israelites had to be able to reproduce). Circumcision also has other benefits - healthier, cleaner, more difficult for spies to infiltrate, female preference, claimed to have benefits in reproduction (Jewish nation virility), claimed to reduce masturbation.
The foreskin is not required in males, but it's not so with the female organs - to harm these is very barbaric. That is why female genital mutilation is internationally condemned, but circumcision is mostly accepted.
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biblical accounts have analogous cultural practices and it can be argued to have been influenced by neighbouring cultures. But the point is not that someone else did it first but rather how these practices are being used and what their meanings are. The Kikuyu people of Kenya are known to force a space between their two front teeth as it is seen as a desirable physical characteristic. Upon first hearing this I thought of how silly of practice this is and how could someone do such a primitive practice of self multiation. How two-faced we can be. Circumcision is a barbaric primitive pagan practice that God has redeemed to point to his glory and our salvation upon our lives. It doesn't matter who else does it, it matters how it gives glory ot God.
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Thera
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I don't agree that God would give a barbaric pagan practice. Circumcision is a covenant sign, and is used even today as preventive medicine. It has been argued the Israelites were ahead of their time with respect to circumcision, due to the benefits it gives. I believe the Israelites were likely the first ones to circumcise, and other nations copied them, as they realised the benefits. Similar to many Western countries today, after observing the benefits circumcision offered the Jews.
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All those “benefits” of circumcision are fake. “Prevents HIV” that's why the Philippines (90% of men are cut) is the fastest growing Asian country of HIV ratio, meanwhile in Japan (<1% men cut) HIV is basically non-existant. Most of Africa's muslim countries struggle a lot with STDs, it's not about cutting, it's about hygiene and sexual education.
About the hygiene, it takes 15-20 seconds a day to an uncut man to clean himself properly, and if someone is cut and never washes, he'll get dirty as well.
Only 33% of world's male population is cut, and out of this 33%, most of it is because Islam, not because health reasons.
The two largest countries in the world don't circumcise, except one European country, the whole of Europe doesn't circumcise, nor Japan, Latin America, Canada, New Zealand, the Buddhist countries, etc
And to be frankly, Eve was the first to sin, she was the first who fell under the snake's trap, not Adam.
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Thera
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Whether circumcision prevents Aids or not, I've read doctors and nurses who say it's cleaner. Circumcision apparently reduces HPV and other diseases in the wives of circumcised men. I've spoken to mums who told of a first son being left uncircumcised, only to have to circumcise him later due to issues, and who tell that all future sons were circumcised soon after birth to prevent similar problems. I'm not saying these people are all correct, but I don't think you can just ignore them.
Adam brought sin into the world. Eve was deceived - Adam sinned knowingly. And Adam was the head of mankind, hence bringing sin to all his descendants. Therefore, circumcision is a reminder of cutting off Adam's seed (of sin).
Romans 5:12 - 14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
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