Believing in the gospel saves. (1 Corinthians 15: 1-4)

Butterball1

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Amen this type of understanding of the scriptures fails to comprehend Jesus’ words in John 15:1-10 as well as His words in Luke 13:6-9.
And from John 15 bearing fruit = obedience to God's will. How can one show/prove he is bearing fruit if one is not even doing what God said to do? He cannot.
 
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BNR32FAN

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And from John 15 bearing fruit = obedience to God's will. How can one show/prove he is bearing fruit if one is not even doing what God said to do? He cannot.

Anen I agree with you
 
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BNR32FAN

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And from John 15 bearing fruit = obedience to God's will. How can one show/prove he is bearing fruit if one is not even doing what God said to do? He cannot.

Paul makes it clear what happens to the “sons of disobedience” in Ephesians 5.
 
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Butterball1

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Perhaps it isn’t the works at all that are taken into consideration but instead the motivation behind the works? Salvation is by faith but it’s not by faith alone. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul made it clear that faith without love profits no one. He also made it clear that doing good works without love is equally worthless. I believe our faith and love for God and love for others is what is actually taken into consideration because these are the motivation for the type of works God expects from us. What are your thoughts?
It's both, the obedient work and motivation behind the obedient work. One should not be obeying God because they feel like they "have to" but obey God because they "love to".

Motivation is a good point you make for justification under the OT law was not of faith (Galatians 3:12) but was about what one did. For to be justified by that OT law required one to keep the whole law perfectly sinless. Therefore the Jews would 'robotically' go about trying to keep the OT laws perfectly while faithless and no love...works apart from faith as Paul puts in Romans 4.
 
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Butterball1

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Paul makes it clear what happens to the “sons of disobedience” in Ephesians 5.
".... cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Paul warned those Christians at Ephesus not to become a child of disobedience "Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
 
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Butterball1

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The Gospel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.

To be saved: believe on Jesus Christ. Have faith and trust in Lord Jesus Christ to save you. At the same time, believing the gospel saves.

To believe the gospel means to have faith and trust that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day as means for your salvation. You are trusting in Jesus to save you when you trust the gospel.
2 Thessalonains 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Obedient works in obeying the gospel is necessary in order not to be in flaiming fire.
 
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Butterball1

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Who said they in Acts 2 were spiritually dead ? I believe you assume that. Men and women spiritually dead cannot act in a spiritual way, they dead.
Those in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead having not heard the gospel therefore having no faith (Romans 10:17) having "not obeyed the gospel of Christ", (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Spiritually dead in their unremitted sins until they obeyed the gospel as preached by Peter.
 
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BNR32FAN

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".... cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Paul warned those Christians at Ephesus not to become a child of disobedience "Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

Amen, he was writing to “the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” when he gave that warning. I see so many people who say that once a person is saved they are sealed with the Holy Spirit and cannot lose their salvation but these warnings in Ephesians 4 & 5 are to those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Paul specifically states this in Ephesian 4:30 right in the middle of this warning. He says “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit with which you have been sealed unto the day of redemption”. To me this simply means that the Holy Spirit will continue to urge us to repent even if we fall away but being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not a guarantee of our salvation. We must repent and walk in the Spirit in order to receive salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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".... cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." Paul warned those Christians at Ephesus not to become a child of disobedience "Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

What are your thoughts on this?


The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.
 
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Danthemailman

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This "trusting 100% in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ" is nothing more than a mental acknowledgement of certain facs about Christ and does not save for it is void of obeying Christ. The devil's believe and tremble so even they acknowledge and believe certain facts about Christ (Matthew 8:28-29) but their belief is void of the necessary obedience as Luther's faith only is void of the necessary oedience to God's will.

You post "Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers" but it is actually sufficient to save "every man" Hebrews 2:9 but every man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) will not do as Christ says (Luke 6:46) will not do the Father's will therefore unable to enter the kingdom (Matthew 7:21).

Salvation is NOT by mentally acknowledging what Christ did, but DOING what He says to do.
Trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation goes beyond mere “mental assent” belief. It’s one thing to believe “mental assent” that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ “happened” (which is believing in your head) and it’s another thing to believe/trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (which is believing in your heart - Romans 10:9,10)

The devil’s may believe or acknowledge certain facts about Christ, but they do not trust in Christ for salvation. They trust in Satan, which explains their lack of obedience to Christ. There are “professing” believers who also acknowledge certain facts about Christ, yet they do not trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but instead, trust in works for salvation, so attempted external obedience to Christ is in vain. (Matthew 7:21-23)

In regards to Luther’s faith only, don’t confuse faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6) with James’ empty profession of faith/death faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” (James 2:14)

Only believers obey Christ unto salvation and after vacation. Without faith it’s impossible to please God no matter how much so called obedience that unbelievers attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to be saved by works. Salvation is about trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in your works. You seem to have more faith in what you do for Christ in order to help save yourself than you do in what Christ did to save you. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, see post #58.

Does believing in the gospel save?
 
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Guojing

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James 2:17-19 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

Missouri is known as the "show me" state. If a person makes some grand claim about what he can do, a person from Missouri might say "I'm from Missouri, show me". In other words, he is saying "prove it".

As James points out obedient works prove faith. Therefore one who has no obedient works has no way of proving he has faith...lack of works prove lack of faith. Abel's obedience proved his faith, Abraham offering Isaac proved his faith. Cain not obeying proved his lack of faith. A faith void of obedience is no different than the devil's belief.

James says "thou believest there is one God?" Then show me, prove it. How can one prove it when they have not obeyed God in doing what God said. Those Jews believed in God that God does exist but they did not believe God in that they would not do what God said to do, they would not submit to God's righteous command (Romans 10:3) proving their lack of faith and the reason as to why they were lost.

Yes, as I said, before Paul's revelation of the mystery (Romans 4:5), faith required some kind of work to show. You are correct.
 
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Brightfame52

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Those in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead having not heard the gospel therefore having no faith (Romans 10:17) having "not obeyed the gospel of Christ", (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Spiritually dead in their unremitted sins until they obeyed the gospel as preached by Peter.
Theres nothing in Acts 2 saying they were spiritually dead, if anything they were quickened to spiritual life, they had a entire spiritual change of mind, which evidences Spiritual life !
 
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Basketball

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2 Thessalonains 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9? Not of works. Why do John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 exist?
 
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Danthemailman

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How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9? Not of works. Why do John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 exist?
I’ve seen works-salvationists try to explain away Ephesians 2:8,9 by saying Paul was merely speaking about specific works of the law, but not works in general then they try to “shoe horn” good works “into” faith in Ephesians 2:8. The end result is saved by “these” works (good works/works of obedience etc..) and just not “those” works (works of the law).
 
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Butterball1

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How do you explain Ephesians 2:8-9? Not of works. Why do John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 exist?
the 'not of works' of Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to works of merit one does apart from faith in an attempt to earn salvation. If one could do such he would have something to boast about. Therefore "not of works" does not eliminate all works, it does not eliminate obedience to God's will which is necessary to being saved/justified, Romans 6:17-18. The order of events in Romans 6:17-18 as Paul puts them:
1) they were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified.

Paul clearly taught obedience is necessary before one can be saved and Paul does not contradict himself going from Rom 6 to Eph 2. Even in the context of Eph 2:8-10 in verse 10 Paul made good works a necessary work for those who are already Christians. One cannot become a Christian yet be void of good works but be saved anyway. Hence those good works are necessary for a Christian to remain saved, doing good works is not an option but a necessity, requiement, mandatory. So "not of works" of Eph 2:8-9 CANNOT eliminate those good works required of Christian or the obedient works required of sinners to become Christians.

John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 teach man must do the obedient work of believing before man can be saved hence the "not of works" cannt eliminate the work of believing and believing is obedience (John 3:36) and not just a mental assent of the mind, not just mentally acknowledgeing facts but a belief that saves is a belief that works in doing what Christ says.

Yet John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 are not the only verses that deal with the subject of salvation, they are dozens and doezens of verses that deal with salvation and we must examone "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27) and not just a couple of cherry picked verses. If we examine other verses that deal with salvation we find Jesus requires belief (John 3:16) but also repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16). There the belief of John 3:16 INCLUDES repentance confession and baptism for it is dead without these other things.
 
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Butterball1

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Theres nothing in Acts 2 saying they were spiritually dead, if anything they were quickened to spiritual life, they had a entire spiritual change of mind, which evidences Spiritual life !
Those Jews in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead separated from God. Romans 1:16 God saves by His gospel and those Jews had to hear the gospel and obey it to be saved. Yet prior to this they were lost, spiritually dead. Yet while lost/spiritually dead were willing and able to hear the gospel, understand it and obey it all while lost/spiritually dead BEFORE they had their sin remitted. The tenets of Calvinism's total depravity is what is not found in Acts 2 or anywhere else in the Bible.
 
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Butterball1

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Yes, as I said, before Paul's revelation of the mystery (Romans 4:5), faith required some kind of work to show. You are correct.
Paul requires obedience to the will of God before one is saved for God does not will not save those who remain in disobedience to His will.
 
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Butterball1

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Trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation goes beyond mere “mental assent” belief. It’s one thing to believe “mental assent” that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ “happened” (which is believing in your head) and it’s another thing to believe/trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (which is believing in your heart - Romans 10:9,10)

The devil’s may believe or acknowledge certain facts about Christ, but they do not trust in Christ for salvation. They trust in Satan, which explains their lack of obedience to Christ. There are “professing” believers who also acknowledge certain facts about Christ, yet they do not trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but instead, trust in works for salvation, so attempted external obedience to Christ is in vain. (Matthew 7:21-23)

In regards to Luther’s faith only, don’t confuse faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6) with James’ empty profession of faith/death faith that remains alone - “barren of works.” (James 2:14)

Only believers obey Christ unto salvation and after vacation. Without faith it’s impossible to please God no matter how much so called obedience that unbelievers attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to be saved by works. Salvation is about trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in your works. You seem to have more faith in what you do for Christ in order to help save yourself than you do in what Christ did to save you. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, see post #58.

Does believing in the gospel save?

2 Thessalonians 1:8 if fire God will have vengeance upon those who OBEY NOT the gospel of Christ. THis means one must obey not to be in flaming fire must OBEY therefore Luther's false idea goes down in flaming fire.

And if one must OBEY the gospel to not be in flaming fire he must know what the gospel is. 1 Corithians 15:3-4 Paul said the gospel he preached was the death burial and resurrection of Christ. Since the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ how then one obey the historical facts of Christ's death burial and resurrection?

Romans 6 when one is water baptized the old man of sin DIES, he is BURIED and RIASED UP FROM (resurrected) from a watery grave. And this death burial and resurretion takes place only in water baptism and this obeying the gospel of Christ. Faith only ('only' being an exclusionary word) lacks the required obedience to be saved thus it foes down in flaming fire. No where does the NT teach one is first saved by faith alone apart from obedience but then AFTER one is saved he can then obeyed. This is a false teaching invented by man for some men refuse to accept that free gifts can come with preconditions and meeting the precondition (obedience) does not earn the free gift (salvation). Not one example in the Bible of men obeying God is their obedience said to earn God's free gift. Beleif only has no Biblical basis, not even any logical basis for it denies common everyday facts and logic.
 
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